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a feeling of faint under an open canopy...

 

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Kuper  (C 35707)

Apr 3, 2004, 10:26 AM
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a feeling of faint under an open canopy... Can't Post

Today was my 76th jump, the 10th with my own rig (yeh!!! i bought a Javlin with Sabre170 and i love it). the jump was great, i was sitting and trying to stand, a short track, then a shorter one on the back, then belly again, alti, and open at 4000. it opened fine, i was happy to see i'm close to the DZ, i did one spiral down for losing height, then some S's and then it came:
on something like 2000-2500 i felt my mouth getting dry, and i had a dizziness and sickness that just got stronger on my way down. on final, when i was 30-40 meters above the ground - i saw these 'blur blcak spots' instead of the ground... if 2 minutes before i was afraid of faint before i get to the ground, now i was really afraid...
i got to the ground, i was still awake, god knows where i got the power to flare from, and sat down immediately - as part of the flareUnsure.
i stood up, wondering whether to call somebody to bring me water or not, and when i felt i hadn't the powers to shout, i decided to go bcak myself (stupid!!!!!).

the next point in time that i remember, was hearing them call 'who is it there? it's Kuper - what happend?' and i found myself on my knees. the few seconds between standing and sitting on my knees were missed by me somehow (i probably fainted)...

all the rest - the coke, the tea, the chocolate - is history.

now i want to hear your opinions about WHY it happend, and more important - WHAT you think I HAD TO DO to get out of it???

just some things that i thought may be the cause and other things that you might ask - i'm not sure what was the trigger - if any at all:
1. two beers the day before.
2. i slept well before jump.
3. i felt good all way up in the plane, and as i wrote here - most of the jump.
4. i gave blood 2 days ago. that maybe sounds bad, but they said i just can't fly 24 hours after. in this case we're talking about 48 hours, + the last time i gave blood i jumped 3 times two days after (the same period of time in this case...)
5. i ate and drank in the morning - like everytime.
6. i've never fainted in my life.
7. i don't have any blood pressure nor sugar problems.
8. i never felt this way when skydiving.

so guys - what the hell happend to me? and what can i / sombody else do next time it happens?

thanks, and have a Blue Sky, and a Happy Passover!
Ori.


chuteless  (D 41)

Apr 3, 2004, 11:01 AM
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Re: [Kuper] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps it was from the spiral and S turns under canopy, which was right before you felt dizzy. I doubt the other things mentioned had any affect, as they were too far away from the time of dizzyness.

If you repeat that kind of flight, make your turns slower, and your spiral, and have another jumper watching you in case you get a repeat of the dizzy spells.



Bill Cole D-41Crazy


kallend  (D 23151)

Apr 3, 2004, 11:16 AM
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Re: [Kuper] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
4. i gave blood 2 days ago. that maybe sounds bad, but they said i just can't fly 24 hours after. in this case we're talking about 48 hours, + the last time i gave blood i jumped 3 times two days after (the same period of time in this case...)
.

Oxygen transport capacity of your cardiovascular system is compromised. It doesn't take long to replenish the blood volume, but it takes a while to replace the haemoglobin in the red blood cells. It's the haemoglobin that transports oxygen.

The 24 hour recommendation from the FAA for pilots is premised on (a) pilots generally don't go to 13,000+ feet in an unpressurized aircraft without supplemental oxygen, and (b) flying a plane takes little physical effort. Skydiving takes quite a lot of physical effort.

When "they" said you shouldn't fly, did "they" actually know that you were planning to skydive?


(This post was edited by kallend on Apr 3, 2004, 11:25 AM)


hookitt  (D License)

Apr 3, 2004, 11:44 AM
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Re: [kallend] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

That is good Information Kallend. Thanks.

If I'm overly dehydrated, I've become dizzy from just opening force. It was a sure sign that nutrition and LOTS of water was needed. Not the same but similar.

During the spiral, if you're legs are relaxed and extended, g-forces tend to allow the blood to flow more into the legs. The Leg straps will help keep it there. Tandem students occasionally pass out for this reason.

If you plan to spiral, pick your knees up and flex your stomach. Fighter and acrobat pilots flex their legs and stomach during high G maneuvers. It helps.


nathaniel

Apr 3, 2004, 1:41 PM
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Re: [Kuper] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand that a panic attack can produce some of these feelings...at least it may have contributed.

nathaniel


ryand96  (D License)

Apr 3, 2004, 1:47 PM
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Re: [hookitt] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
During the spiral, if you're legs are relaxed and extended, g-forces tend to allow the blood to flow more into the legs. The Leg straps will help keep it there. Tandem students occasionally pass out for this reason.

I had this very same experience on my first tandem jump during the canopy ride. I didn't pass out but I came very close. I just figured it was sensory overload. Now that I think about it I'm sure that very tight leg straps had something to do with it.


(This post was edited by ryand96 on Apr 3, 2004, 1:49 PM)


Kuper  (C 35707)

Apr 3, 2004, 3:38 PM
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Re: [kallend] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

thanx for you answers, i really appreciate this!

kallend - that's a good piece of information. on that time i didn't even mentioned that i was going to skydive, but the last time i gave blood - yes, i told them i was going to jump. anyway - for how long after giving blood i have to wait before skydiving?

hookitt - yeh, two guys told me about that flexing of flighter... but can't it jsut do the opposite? i mean - that effort of flexing can finish my last powers...can't it? anyway i think i'll try this 'knees up' thing. it sounds very reasonable...

thanx again to everybody,
Ori.


Michele  (B 26874)

Apr 3, 2004, 3:41 PM
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Re: [ryand96] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ori, thanks so much for donating blood.

Along with what Kallend said, next time, try waiting more than 72 hours before you jump. In those 72 hours, drink more than usual. NOT more beer than usual, just water, juice, things like that. Eat better, too (no fast/junk food, limit sugary stuff that morning, et cetera). Try to not have any caffeine that morning, either (impossible for me - I'm addicted), because caffeine is a diuretic (makes you pee a lot...). If you can't go without your coffee, drink more water to keep yourself hydrated.

If it truly worries you (and it sounds like it does), perhaps going to see your Dr and getting answers from them would set your mind at more ease.

In any case, good for you for handling the issue, and happy Passover to you, as well.

Ciels-
Michele


hookitt  (D License)

Apr 3, 2004, 5:16 PM
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Re: [Kuper] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

The flexing thing is for prior to spiraling anytime especially if your playing hard. It becomes second nature. If this ever happens to you again, and I hope it doesn't, just do what ever you can to get to the ground safely.

good luck!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 3, 2004, 9:21 PM
Post #10 of 32 (2240 views)
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Re: [kallend] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

>Oxygen transport capacity of your cardiovascular system is compromised.

I agree with all that, but with just about every case of hypoxia I've seen it is a problem up high but the jumper recovers once he reaches an altitude with a higher ppO2 (say, 5000 feet.) A problem that develops gradually under canopy sounds more ischemic than hypoxic (i.e. loss of oxygen transport from lack of blood flow rather than low hemoglobin saturation.)


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Apr 3, 2004, 10:30 PM
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Re: [Kuper] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

Oxygen deprivation is a good explanation.

However, did ya perhaps think that you just -might- have been air sick? I mean, smaller canopy, tighter turns...did you eat lunch? Tongue

I know a very experienced pilot who got air sick in a different kind of aircraft just recently. They weren't enclosed, like they were used to....and got a bit queasy. Go figure!

ltdiver


neily  (Student)

Apr 3, 2004, 10:34 PM
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Re: [billvon] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to think its the donating blood that caused the dizzyness. In the Uk the BPA operations manual Section 11 2.5
Blood Donors.

Sport parachutists are advised that parachuting and giving blood are not compatible. Whilst the quantity of blood is quickly replaced after donation, the necessary oxygen retaining qualities required at altitude are not.

I've heard this to be 3 to 6 weeks, but can't remember the source.


biff383  (B License)

Apr 3, 2004, 10:56 PM
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Re: [neily] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey they pay 2 jumpss for blood here...I guess that's why I Keyant speeeel


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 4, 2004, 8:10 AM
Post #14 of 32 (2171 views)
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Re: [neily] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

Key words there:

>the necessary oxygen retaining qualities required at altitude are not.

This incident didn't happen at altitude. It may have been related anyway, but I tend to doubt it.


rigging65  (D 21921)

Apr 4, 2004, 11:09 AM
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Re: [Kuper] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

Very interesting, there is a medical (or pre-hospital) condition called "Harness Sickness" that results in feeling faint while under canopy...or while suspended in any full-body harness. Here's how it works:

Your body's venus return system (how the blood gets back to your heart from your extremities, especially your legs) has A LOT to do with your muscles flexing and pushing the blood back up. If you're sitting in a harness, and leaving your muscles limp, the blood just doesn't make it back up to your heart (and thus less gets to your head) and you'll start to feel faint. One of the reasons why you faint (called syncope, in medical circles), is to get all your body parts on the same level, so that your heart doesn't have to work so hard to get blood moved around.

Now, here's the kicker with Harness Sickness. You start feeling faint because your not getting the venus return you need to keep oxygenating your brain, because you're not using your leg muscles. If you pass out, your body is expecting you to end up flat on your back, thus making blood movement easier. Well, in a harness, you're obviously not going to end up flat on your back, but your heart is going to keep pumping blood to your legs (where it will mostly remain)...this can actually kill you! You basically "bleed out" into your legs, and don't have enough blood to feed O2 to the rest of your body.

Now, from what I've read about it, we're talking like 45 minutes or so, with no leg movement, but it can happen! So while flying your canopy isn't life threatening (at least not because of Harness Sickness Tongue) here are some things to keep in mind:

1) If you're going to be in the harness for a while (a high alti hop-n-pop for instance) flex your major leg muscles from time to time while under canopy and bend at the knees.

2) Stretch out in the AM. Before you get going, take some time to stretch and warm up. Get the muscles working and the blood flowing. It will help keep the blood flowing all day...and reduce muscle strains as well.

2) Eat well and stay hydrated. Your body doesn't react well when it's not nourished, and dehydration can really screw up the way your body functions on a cellular level...the adrenaline and harness time doesn't make it any better, so do what you can to help your body!


Kuper  (C 35707)

Apr 4, 2004, 12:44 PM
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Re: [rigging65] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileTHANK YOU VERY VERY VERY MUCH!!!!!Smile
your answers really helps me to understand what happend to me up in the sky, and i have to say (like everytime here) it's so good that you'r here and can teach others from your experience and knowledge.

while reading your opinions, i think more and more that there were two main reasons (which became one)
1. i didn't notice what i was doing with my legs/ muscles etc. and didn't think about it while under canpy...
2. i had to drink more (and not beer!) on those days after blood donation, and to pay more attention to my meals. but instead of this, 2 hours after the blood donation - i just forgot about it. that wasn't smart at all...

now about the flexing thing:
1. do i really have to take my legs to belly? it sounds not very comfortable...Unsure
2. in this time i don't remember what i did, but most of the time when playing with those spirals, i cross my legs. is it good enough? is it good at all? or is it just another way to put all the blood down (like what you wrote here)? cause it DOES feel like i'm resist the centrifugeCool...

thanx again,
Ori.


ZegeunerLeben

Apr 4, 2004, 1:07 PM
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Re: [Kuper] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
>>I knew a jumper a few who years back who was seriously injured (think life flight) after passing out under canopy. If this gets to the point where it's impairing your ability to land safely, you may wish to consider consulting a physician.


rigging65  (D 21921)

Apr 4, 2004, 10:12 PM
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Re: [Kuper] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

The body is truly an amazing thing...and it does really well when you keep it in it's normal environment. Unfortunately, hanging in a canopy isn't the body's normal environment!

Just crossing your legs while you fly isn't going to do much, but all you really need to do is to tighten and relax your muscles a few times in the middle of your canopy descent. If you start harness steering, then you're going to be using your legs more than you know...I think the people most "at risk" are people who are opening high, then just hanging out and not doing much (ie - tandems). I used to have my tandem students practice their landing position a few times during our canopy ride (legs up!), which keeps their mind on the correct position and also gets them moving their legs so they don't feel sick...especially with that much adrenaline flowing!

Just flex and relax, and take care of yourself on the ground...it'll be all good!


Kuper  (C 35707)

Apr 5, 2004, 2:56 AM
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Re: [rigging65] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

ok - i'll do that flex and relex... thnk u rigging65!


JKT  (B 103559)

Apr 5, 2004, 10:07 AM
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Re: [Kuper] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
4. i gave blood 2 days ago. that maybe sounds bad, but they said i just can't fly 24 hours after. in this case we're talking about 48 hours, + the last time i gave blood i jumped 3 times two days after (the same period of time in this case...)
If you want to read some more detailed info on why it isn't a good idea to jump from altitude so soon after donating blood read this:

BPA medical officer's advice on blood donation and skydiving

Quote:

Do not jump above 5,000 ft until your haemoglobin is within 5% of its original level.


(This post was edited by JKT on Apr 5, 2004, 10:09 AM)


gmanpilot  (D License)

Apr 5, 2004, 10:38 AM
Post #21 of 32 (1910 views)
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Re: [JKT] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
4. i gave blood 2 days ago. that maybe sounds bad, but they said i just can't fly 24 hours after. in this case we're talking about 48 hours, + the last time i gave blood i jumped 3 times two days after (the same period of time in this case...)
If you want to read some more detailed info on why it isn't a good idea to jump from altitude so soon after donating blood read this:

BPA medical officer's advice on blood donation and skydiving

Quote:

Do not jump above 5,000 ft until your haemoglobin is within 5% of its original level.

So how long does that take?


JKT  (B 103559)

Apr 5, 2004, 11:49 AM
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Re: [gmanpilot] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:

Do not jump above 5,000 ft until your haemoglobin is within 5% of its original level.

So how long does that take?It depends on the person, but from what I understand, it can take a few months for some.


firstime  (B 28972)

Apr 5, 2004, 6:38 PM
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Re: [Kuper] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

I had the same thing, scares the snot out one. The second time someone told me(also mentioned here)
to drink a ton of water. I also consumed about 6 bananas (no pun intended everyone) the bananas have a great source of potassium. Oh well it worked for me and its not some wackey remedy just good old fruit and H2O. Enjoy and stay awake brother!!!!


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Apr 5, 2004, 8:49 PM
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Re: [firstime] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I also consumed about 6 bananas (no pun intended everyone) the bananas have a great source of potassium. Oh well it worked for me and its not some wackey remedy just good old fruit and H2O. Enjoy and stay awake brother!!!!

Interesting.

When I was very young, I would get very car sick on long road trips. When I'd get nauseous my mom would offer me a banana to eat (before I threw up) and it quelled my nausea immediately.

Hmmmmm......

ltdiver


Kuper  (C 35707)

Apr 6, 2004, 10:33 AM
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Re: [ltdiver] a feeling of faint under an open canopy... [In reply to] Can't Post

Cooli jumped 3 today,and it was all ok!
i kept me legs in movement all the time, and flexed them while doing the spirals (i once hop and poped on 4900 so i had a lot of time for doing those spiralsWink). i also took some long breaths in the plane on the way up (for keep my body with enough oxigen). well thanx again everyone - u helped me a lot here!

blue sky, be safe!
Ori.


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