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Crossbrace + low jump numbers

 

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Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Mar 28, 2004, 8:18 PM
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Crossbrace + low jump numbers Can't Post

Hi Folks,

Got a question for some of the ST&A's and just generally anyone who jumps who has something constructive to add.

Is there a trend developing of people with really low jump #'s turning up on the dz with x-braced canopies?

I haven't seen any of this until now, but this weekend we had a guy turn up with a brand new 93 VX(sub 100 but > 90 - not familiar with VX sizes) who had hadn't jumped in 9 months and had less than 400 jumps.

After watching him land once, it's very apparent that the guy is a D.G.I.T but at the same time he's very responsive to input (other than upsizing). So I wonder how someone finds themselves under that type of canopy but with a good attitude?

I know this post is somewhat (ok, a lot) incoherent but I'm trying to find out if this is becoming common, and also how various DZ's handle these kinds of things?

Blue skies
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Mar 28, 2004, 8:42 PM)


f1shlips  (A 44901)

Mar 28, 2004, 8:24 PM
Post #2 of 107 (2531 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

D.I.T?

WTFDTM?


Kris  (D 26033)

Mar 28, 2004, 8:39 PM
Post #3 of 107 (2525 views)
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Re: [f1shlips] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
D.I.T?

I think he meant D.G.I.T. = Dead Guy In Training.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Mar 28, 2004, 8:42 PM
Post #4 of 107 (2518 views)
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Re: [Kris] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah...tired from a great day of swooping and jumping Cool Edited original post.

Thanks.

Blue ones,
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Mar 28, 2004, 8:43 PM)


ffejdraga  (D 16906)

Mar 28, 2004, 9:12 PM
Post #5 of 107 (2495 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Man that is crazy.
It doesnt sound like this story will have a good outcome unless that dude does some serious changing or serious learning. unfortunately, he may never get the chance.

As an instructor, that is so far out of line as far as safety goes, that I would make every effort I could to not see that dude jumping that canopy where I jump, and also give him the best persuading arguement why he needs to upsize, and fly a different model canopy.

My strongly worded opinion is that NO ONE with 400 jumps should be jumping a sub 100 canopy, regardless of wing loading, and most certainly not a cross-braced elliptical 27 cell. That is just BEGGING for death.

Damn, did anyone else besides you notice this?
That is nuts man, do what you can to see that dude doesnt continue on until his luck runs out. I know you arent an instructor, but someone around there is...make the dude see the light before he ends up a statistic.

INSANE!!


jeff D-16906


tattoojeff  (A License)

Mar 28, 2004, 11:15 PM
Post #6 of 107 (2446 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

just out of curiosity, how safe and dialed were his swoops on his previous canopy? also what was he flying before? ijm in no way defendiong him, im just trying to get an idea how bad his situation is. we have a jumper that bought a velocity sub 100 with under 200 hundred jumps. beleive it or not years later he still has the same canopy and is an awsome swooper and hasnt been hurt besides some bumps and bruises !!!!! this is NOT THE NORM but did happen.
p.s. he was not jumping at my dz when he bought it.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 29, 2004, 5:20 AM
Post #7 of 107 (2374 views)
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Re: [tattoojeff] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

It's just my wild guess, but I bet you that dude bought the canopy online in the off season and just showed up at whatever dz you were at to avoid problems with people who know better at another DZ. With 400 jumps that guy has no business whatsoever under that main.


velo90

Mar 29, 2004, 5:57 AM
Post #8 of 107 (2348 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
With 400 jumps that guy has no business whatsoever under that main.

Hmmm, do I have any business being under my Velocity 90 with 1100 jumps?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Mar 29, 2004, 6:04 AM
Post #9 of 107 (2343 views)
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Re: [velo90] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Lets not sidetrack this thread. This isn't about you and your canopy. If you have something to add by all means go for it, but cryptic statements are not productive.

Blue ones,
Ian


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Mar 29, 2004, 6:06 AM
Post #10 of 107 (2339 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

I am getting more and more dissapointed in jumpers canopy choices. Just this weekend I saw two instances of choices that were very wrong in my opinion. Currently there are no CrossBraced canopies at my DZ and even small canopies are pretty uncommon. I'm one of the most agressive canopy pilots at the DZ and even this choice is some thing that I would not have chose.

A jumper that their first canopy was a Nitron 170 at 1.3-1.4 with just over 100 jumps total in the last 2 years decided to try his hand at a Stiletto 150 on his first weekend back after an winter off. Needless to say it was entertaining to see the landing. Whats worse is he was given the canopy by someone that just downsized from the 150 Stiletto to a 120 Nitro. This person jumped the 120 (loaded ~1.8+ at 800 jumps in 7-8 years) demoed on a day with a lot of winds an then came home to no winds and was running every landing...

Why can't people chose canopies that are correct for their skill level? Unsure


marks  (D 22296)

Mar 29, 2004, 6:16 AM
Post #11 of 107 (2327 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lets not sidetrack this thread. This isn't about you and your canopy. If you have something to add by all means go for it, but cryptic statements are not productive.

Blue ones,
Ian

well i believe the label said it was a 9o s/f canopy. the guy was at a 2.1 wing loading. his landings showed his experience.

if they arent going to listen to you tell them not to jump and the s&ta isnt going to ground them.... might as well help teach them how to fly it...


(This post was edited by marks on Mar 29, 2004, 6:17 AM)


velo90

Mar 29, 2004, 6:22 AM
Post #12 of 107 (2319 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I haven't seen any of this until now, but this weekend we had a guy turn up with a brand new 93 VX(sub 100 but > 90 - not familiar with VX sizes) who had hadn't jumped in 9 months and had less than 400 jumps.

I did not mean to side track the thread, It's just that jump numbers keep getting quoted as the reason, but so much more info was given.
Reading what I quoted above, there is no way they would be jumping at my home DZ.

A 9 month break is a good enough reason to upsize for a few jumps.

I can't say I see this trend for small X-braced here in Germany. Most jumpers I know here at around 400 jumps will be jumping a square or eliptical loaded no more than 1.4.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Mar 29, 2004, 6:36 AM
Post #13 of 107 (2304 views)
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Re: [marks] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
if they arent going to listen to you tell them not to jump and the s&ta isnt going to ground them.... might as well help teach them how to fly it...

Which is exactly the reason I was happy he came with us on the 14000ft hop n' pop Smile. Of course, watching you playing with his pilot chute was a riot, but that's another story Sly

What I find curious is that he's very responsive and receptive to input, as long as it's not to upsize.

Thanks for the jumps this weekend. Was a blast.

Blue ones,
Ian


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Mar 29, 2004, 6:37 AM
Post #14 of 107 (2299 views)
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Re: [velo90] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I can't say I see this trend for small X-braced here in Germany. Most jumpers I know here at around 400 jumps will be jumping a square or eliptical loaded no more than 1.4.

Yeah that's a range I'd expect to find people in. We'll be doing what we can to help this guy, but I was curious to see if other dropzones are beginning to experience a trend like this or if it was a rare occurance.

Blue skies
Ian


StearmanR985  (A License)

Mar 29, 2004, 8:48 AM
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Re: [marks] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if they arent going to listen to you tell them not to jump and the s&ta isnt going to ground them.... might as well help teach them how to fly it...

This is actually an excellent point of view. I am quite new to the sport and am looking to downsize very shortly. I have a Sabre2 demo on the way (hopefully). I am not looking to hear "OMG WTF are you thinking?" What people like me ARE looking for is advice/instruction on how to properly and safely fly our new canopies.

Can't some of us 'low timers' make a SEMI aggressive canopy choice but still be safe? I would like to think with proper instruction and flying conservativley as our skills improve the answer would be yes.

Jeff


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Mar 29, 2004, 9:01 AM
Post #16 of 107 (2221 views)
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Re: [StearmanR985] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am not looking to hear "OMG WTF are you thinking?" What people like me ARE looking for is advice/instruction on how to properly and safely fly our new canopies.

There's a difference between what you WANT to hear and what you NEED to hear. I told the guy, you're going to get a lot of shit about your canopy choice, and you deserve it, so you better do everything in your power to prove you're capable of handling the canopy (this is after he biffed himself in stalling the canopy on rears after trying to dig out of a low turn)

Quote:
Can't some of us 'low timers' make a SEMI aggressive canopy choice but still be safe? I would like to think with proper instruction and flying conservativley as our skills improve the answer would be yes.

No most people cannot be safe (at least not with that little experience on the type of canopy we're talking about). But that doesn't mean you won't survive, just that the odds are against you and the people around you (yes you can hit them, very easily).

Don't take our attitude of teaching the guy as condoning his actions. If I was the S&TA he wouldn't be jumping that canopy @ the DZ, period. However since I'm not, and I can't do anything about it my options are to:

a) Ignore it and when he fraps himself in, say "I saw that coming" - which is unacceptable to me.
b) Try and help him and if he fraps in, say "At least I did what I could to try and keep him safe"
c) Try and help him, have him realize once he has some experience that he was in WAY over his head, would have progressed MUCH FASTER if he'd stayed within his limits and MAYBE will be a decent swooper once he refines techniques he could have done on a larger canopy.

He is in over his head, the odds are against him (and you if you chose his path), and I'm definately not gonna sit here and say you're being smart about it if you chose to do so.

Blue skies
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Mar 29, 2004, 9:08 AM)


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Mar 29, 2004, 9:06 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Ian

I am nowhere near qualified to say whether one person or another has the right skill to safely pilot a sub-100 foot X-braced canopy. But I have always been under the impression that one only goes to a x-braced canopy after and only after they have absolutely maxed out their existing canopy (obviously an existing canopy with a high wing loading in itself). But sadly this message doesn't seem to get around to some of the people wanting to fly x-braced canopies.

I know of at least one person from my DZ who is flying a Velocity in a docile manner and I know of another person (who is skilled) but who's talking about buying a Velocity as well who isn't maxing out their current canopy. And I only assume that the reason why these two people want to jump Velocity canopies because they like telling people that they fly a x-braced canopy. And to add insult to injury, there is another junior jumper (maybe 100 jumps) who somehow convinced someone to let him jump a Sabre2 150 over the weekend (not sure exactly what the wing loading was, but this junior jumper is not a small person). This junior jumper seems to be in a rush to be jumping a small high performance canopy and has been warned numerous times about what a dangerous road he is venturing down. But he's young and invincible and somehow feels he's better than everyone else only because he used to hang around the DZ as a packing rat (before his 18th b-day). Dang ... where have we seen those young "I'm better than everyone else" jumpers? They seem to be all over the place. Crazy

Personally, I know I did downsize a little aggressively in the past, but now I consider myself as someone who flies a high performance canopy and is very much at risk of messing myself up if I am not careful. And it'll be a long long time (possibly it'll never happen) before you see me on a x-braced canopy. You see, I still need to max out my Crossfire 139 before I downsize to a 129. Then I need to max out a 129, a 119 and a Crossfire2 109 before I ever think about jumping a x-braced canopy.

Plus what's disturbing from the example you gave is that the person with only about 400 jumps hasn't jumped in 9 months. Shit I haven't done a good high performance landing in about two weeks and I feel uncurrent in high performance landing techniques. How the heck could I perform under this wing if I haven't jumped in 9 months. Crazy

We have another person from out DZ who's recovering from a broken back (fortunatetly no spinal injury occurred and he wasn't even flying an x-braced canopy) and who is only starting to jump again (he's flying a large Spectre) and if you listen to this guy talk about his crash (he never let up on the front risers if I am not mistaken), he'll tell you that he made 400+ successfully jumps prior to his incident without ever having to dig it out. But all it takes is one moment of lapse judgement to forever change our lives.

I am by no means a canopy nazi. But I am starting to be around this sport long enough to see how risky it is and that some people take high performance canopy flight to lightly (as I'm sure I have in the past).


(This post was edited by CanuckInUSA on Mar 29, 2004, 9:14 AM)


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Mar 29, 2004, 9:11 AM
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Re: [StearmanR985] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can't some of us 'low timers' make a SEMI aggressive canopy choice but still be safe? I would like to think with proper instruction and flying conservativley as our skills improve the answer would be yes.

Some people downsize aggressively with low jump numbers and are fine. Others break themselves and worse yet for some.

You're already at a 1.2 wingloading (according to your profile) which is a very aggressive W/L for your jump numbers. If you are planning on downsizing further than I think the only thing that you be told is "OMG WTF are you thinking?"

Think of all the risks involved. With a smaller canopy you have less time to react and it will bite harder. The added speed might be fun, but is that fun worth the added risk of possibly breaking yourself and never being able to walk again? At your jump numbers there is no way you could possibly have wrung all the perfornance out of your canopy.

Talk to your instructors who have seen you fly your canopy. Take a canopy control course and listen to what the coach tells you. There is a reason that so many people say "OMG WTF are you thinking?", think about it...


StearmanR985  (A License)

Mar 29, 2004, 9:40 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Ian,

I did not mean to imply that you condoned his choice. On the contrary, you voiced your opinion that you felt his choice was not wise. But instead of just walking away you took the time to help him. Smile

Jeff


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Mar 29, 2004, 9:52 AM
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Re: [StearmanR985] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Just wanted to be very clear on my standpoint. Don't want to be putting any ideas in peoples heads that this kind of thing is "ok" Tongue

For whatever it's worth, I guarentee you that if you learn your canopy (and I dont just mean standing up a landing) well you'll be rewarded in the future. It's tough to hold back, and no-one wants to (I didn't) but it's definately worth it.

Stay safe.

Blue skies
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Mar 29, 2004, 2:45 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 29, 2004, 10:30 AM
Post #21 of 107 (2135 views)
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Re: [StearmanR985] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

>I am not looking to hear "OMG WTF are you thinking?"

I don't say that, exactly, but I do list all the other friends I had who got a SEMI aggressive canopy, flew conservatively, and are now dead, brain damaged or permanently injured. If you don't want to hear that - BASE is an excellent sport where you can do foolish things and not have to listen to anyone else's opinions.

>Can't some of us 'low timers' make a SEMI aggressive canopy choice
> but still be safe?

Generallt, no, and the reason why is contained in the next line:

>I would like to think with proper instruction and flying conservativley
> as our skills improve the answer would be yes.

If you buy a canopy that you feel you have to "fly conservatively" then you will not learn to fly it. To learn to fly a canopy well, you have to learn to land in rear risers, learn front riser approaches, learn to flat turn at 50 feet etc. If you would not do such things because you wish to fly your canopy conservatively to be safe, then you will not learn how to do them. And when someone cuts you off at 50 feet, as happens with great regularity, you will toggle turn into the ground because that's all you learn how to do while flying your canopy conservatively.

How do you get around this? Buy a canopy that does not scare you. Learn how to do _everything_ on it - stall it, flare turn it, flat turn it, land it uphill. Have someone watch you land and offer tips. Get coaching or go to a CC course. THEN downsize and try all that stuff on the smaller canopy.


StearmanR985  (A License)

Mar 29, 2004, 10:49 AM
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Re: [NeedToJump] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Talk to your instructors who have seen you fly your canopy. Take a canopy control course and listen to what the coach tells you. There is a reason that so many people say "OMG WTF are you thinking?", think about it...

No worries, I have been consulting with a couple of coaches/instructors at the DZ regarding my downsizing issues. I have been advised that if I continue to fly in the same manner I do now, I will be fine.

I just wanted to show the percpective from the other side, as a newbie. Advice on waiting to downsize may be noted but not followed by some. With that being the case, advice and instruction on flying the smaller canopy may be more valuable than you realize. I will use myself as an example, you could talk to me until your blue in face about not downsizing and I probably won't listen (unless the demo doesn't work out too well Wink). However, tell me that the canopy I have chosen is a bit aggressive and that I need to be careful followed by offering me advice how to PROPERLY fly it, I guarentee I will listen to every word you say. And if your advice pays off you may just have a new best friend.....Whether you want one or not. LaughLaugh


I do thank you for your concern though, yes I really mean it. Smile

Jeff


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Mar 29, 2004, 11:22 AM
Post #23 of 107 (2090 views)
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Re: [StearmanR985] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I just wanted to show the percpective from the other side, as a newbie. Advice on waiting to downsize may be noted but not followed by some. With that being the case, advice and instruction on flying the smaller canopy may be more valuable than you realize.

But if you wouldn't listen to my advice about downsizing, then how could I expect you to listen to any other advice I gave regarding canopy flight?

Can't have it both ways. Either you want to listen, or you don't, either way the choice is 100% yours. Problem is that you won't necessarily only hurt yourself either, but hey, why should that matter.

Not trying to sound like a dick, but the consequences for everyone is a harsh reality, and there's no nice way to say you could easily kill someone else.

EDIT: I'm not necessarily talking about YOUR particular downsizing, but rather the case you're trying to make for premature downsizing.

Blue skies
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Mar 29, 2004, 11:23 AM)


StearmanR985  (A License)

Mar 29, 2004, 12:26 PM
Post #24 of 107 (2061 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Well Ian,

You said it yourself in an earlier post. The guy came with you on a 14K H & P and was very receptive to input so long as it was not to upsize. Wink

Some people just can't stand hearing "You can't/shouldn't be doing that." Yet some of these very same people are ALL ears when someone tells them HOW to do it and how to do it CORRECTLY.

Basically, I just wanted to commend those that, though they may not agree with an individuals choices, they help them out anyway by giving useful tips and information.

Jeff


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 12:41 PM
Post #25 of 107 (2043 views)
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Re: [StearmanR985] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Can't some of us 'low timers' make a SEMI aggressive canopy choice but still be safe?

Wow, I'm going to bite off a big one here.

"Conditionaly" yes.

The problem lies in without experience a novice/beginer (sub 200) jumper is a far worse judge of what is "too" aggresive.

If I have watched someone repeatedly and have a good understanding of their skill, recognize their ability to understand teachings, have a gauge on their ego, and will be able to "hold their hand" I might be more likely to advise them on an more aggresive choice. Likewise if I know someone who will do that for them I might be more likely to make that sale.

For someone I don't know or anre not covinced they have the right attitude or teachers, well....no.

People wishing to downsize should REALLY be able to justify why. I'll bet most of them can't.


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