Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
New Riggers Please Be Careful

 

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sducoach  (D License)

Mar 28, 2004, 11:53 AM
Post #1 of 69 (2318 views)
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New Riggers Please Be Careful Can't Post

Just received a Javelin for re-pack and discovered the following.

Cypres nine months past four year.

Cypres batteries two years past replacement date.

SPSB0303200 Rev. B not addressed.

You can figure out how many "reserve re-packs" it has been through.

I contacted the last rigger who repacked the container and advised him of what I had found.

Come on guys and gals, it may only take you nine days to get your riggers ticket now but it only takes you a few minutes to check things out properly.

Blues,

J.E.


LawnDart21  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 7:26 AM
Post #2 of 69 (2065 views)
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Re: [sducoach] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, I'll bite on this one.

If the cypres is nine months past its four year, then in theory it should have been sent back prior to passing the four year mark, meaning it should have been pulled out 4 pack juobs ago. That means it was missed four times.

The cypres batteries were two years past replacement, meaning, that atleast 6 repacks went by and it was missed. Now assuming these repacks were all made by the same rigger, they aren't a "new rigger", or they were just recently missed by a "new rigger" but missed by experienced riggers for the last two years.

Experienced riggers are not exempt from making careless errors, and new riggers are not all missing things. You happened to catch some things on a "new rigger" repack, but that doesn't mean the problem stems from the person being "new" its just a problem of lack of attention to detail, and that can come with any expeirence level.

I consider myself lucky in that I have the priviledge of working in a loft on a busy DZ under an extremely talented Master Rigger/DPRE, so I have a "walking parachute manual" to consult as needed, but that doesnt negate the fact that I learned the requirements/expectations of a Senior Rigger at my 9 day course. Its not being "new", its simply a matter of being thorough. Newbies and experienced riggers are both capable of making those errors.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 29, 2004, 8:20 AM
Post #3 of 69 (2032 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Okay, I'll bite on this one.

If the cypres is nine months past its four year, then in theory it should have been sent back prior to passing the four year mark, meaning it should have been pulled out 4 pack juobs ago. That means it was missed four times.

The cypres batteries were two years past replacement, meaning, that atleast 6 repacks went by and it was missed. Now assuming these repacks were all made by the same rigger, they aren't a "new rigger", or they were just recently missed by a "new rigger" but missed by experienced riggers for the last two years.

Experienced riggers are not exempt from making careless errors, and new riggers are not all missing things. You happened to catch some things on a "new rigger" repack, but that doesn't mean the problem stems from the person being "new" its just a problem of lack of attention to detail, and that can come with any expeirence level.

I consider myself lucky in that I have the priviledge of working in a loft on a busy DZ under an extremely talented Master Rigger/DPRE, so I have a "walking parachute manual" to consult as needed, but that doesnt negate the fact that I learned the requirements/expectations of a Senior Rigger at my 9 day course. Its not being "new", its simply a matter of being thorough. Newbies and experienced riggers are both capable of making those errors.

I could not find any reference to "new riggers" or "experienced riggers" in the original post. Just the fact that things had been left undone for several "reserve repacks."
Sparky


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 29, 2004, 8:24 AM
Post #4 of 69 (2030 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I could not find any reference to "new riggers" or "experienced riggers" in the original post. Just the fact that things had been left undone for several "reserve repacks."

I think the title of "New Riggers Please Be Careful" points the finger at a new rigger.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Mar 29, 2004, 8:38 AM
Post #5 of 69 (2014 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I could not find any reference to "new riggers" or "experienced riggers" in the original post.

How about the title of this thread?


masterrig  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 8:47 AM
Post #6 of 69 (2002 views)
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Re: [sducoach] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

I too, have found Cypres' 'way' out of date. I have talked with the last rigger who worked on the rig in question and had a 'good' conversation with him. I also informed the owner, who was quite up-set about it. One point in the situation like this is, if, something were to happen in the mean-time and the FAA got involved, they really 'frown' on out-of-date AAD's. Apologies don't hold-up in court.
From reading the other posts in this thread, I don't feel you are pointing a finger, necessarily at 'new' riggers. I took it as a 'wake-up' call to all of us to be more thorough in our work. I agree also, it doesn't take long at all to look at date and etc. on AAD's. Also, as mentioned in this thread, it's not just the new-comers to this profession who can make a mistake. After all, we are all human and vulnerable to error.

For what it's worth.

chuck


LawnDart21  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 9:08 AM
Post #7 of 69 (1987 views)
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Re: [masterrig] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand where you are coming from Chuck, but I did interpret the title "New Riggers Please Be Careful" as the post was directed at new riggers. Then the line:
"Come on guys and gals, it may only take you nine days to get your riggers ticket now but it only takes you a few minutes to check things out properly"
I read that as well as a reference to new riggers.
If I am wrong so be it, I just replied to what I interpretted from the original post, which was a seasoned rigger finding a "miss" on a pack job done by a newbie and using that as a generalization that all newbies tend to be unthorough.


masterrig  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 10:55 AM
Post #8 of 69 (1944 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

I went back and re-read the original post in this thread. After doing so, I realized, it is rather 'pointed' at 'new riggers'. You've made a good point. Looks as though, as mentioned in this thread, people do make mistakes. I obviously read it too quickly. I appreciate your pointing it out to me.Blush

Thanks!

Chuck


sducoach  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 12:00 PM
Post #9 of 69 (1921 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Lawndart21,

The post is intended to help warn and teach. New riggers and old.

Simply take the time, check AD's, SB's, and AAD's.

If you disagree with that, state your differences. If not, don't look for an argument from meWink.

Blues,

J.E.


sducoach  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 12:02 PM
Post #10 of 69 (1919 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Would that be you?
If you are guilty, worry about it. If not, learn.
Blues,

J.E.


sducoach  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 12:07 PM
Post #11 of 69 (1914 views)
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Re: [dragon2] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll ask you the same question. Would that be you?

If you did not receive a call from me, why worry about it?

Either start complaining, or learn from the exposure of anothers mistakes. This rigger is "new" in that the individual has only been a rigger for less than 2 years. What do you call new?

This sounds like the NG. with all the whinners wanting to complain instead of trying to learn.

Blues,

J.E.


sducoach  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 12:17 PM
Post #12 of 69 (1907 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

LawnDart21,

Chuck is right on here. Wake up call folks. Point in fact is the past rigger was/is a "rigger mill" student.

The problem with some "rigger mills" is that in 9 days you too can "be one" without any experience other than the class. I know several who either had not seen or touched a reserve before they attended and/or, had never worked with a SR/Master rigger at all prior. Do they need to be reminded of their responsibilty? Looks like a few do to me.

If somepeople get touchy about the title of this post, so be it. Might think about it next time they open a reserve.

Man it this keeps up, I'm starting a fan club!!!!!

Blues,

J.E.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Mar 29, 2004, 12:52 PM
Post #13 of 69 (1891 views)
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Re: [sducoach] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll ask you the same question. Would that be you?

If you did not receive a call from me, why worry about it?

??

Are you adressing me here??


USPA  (D 81812)

Mar 29, 2004, 12:55 PM
Post #14 of 69 (1885 views)
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Re: [masterrig] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I also informed the owner, who was quite up-set about it

I suggest the owner quits jumping immediatly, if you don't check your stuff, don't be angry if it isn't good.


sducoach  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 1:00 PM
Post #15 of 69 (1878 views)
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Re: [dragon2] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Dragon2,

Sure am!

Blues,

J.E.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Mar 29, 2004, 1:14 PM
Post #16 of 69 (1863 views)
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Re: [sducoach] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

All I did was answer Mjosparky's question where 'new riggers' came up? As did PhreeZone.

So, I really don't get your question: would I be WHAT? A new rigger?????? If that's your question, the answer is no, I hate sewing and dislike packing too much, and I rather doubt you'd ever call me (unless you want your phonebill skyhigh) Crazy

Also, no such thing as rigger mills here, if I understand what you mean correctly...

I still don't know what you want from me... I have no problem with your original post, like I said I just answered a question from somebody else.


masterrig  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 1:32 PM
Post #17 of 69 (1847 views)
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Re: [USPA] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems as though, some folks rely too much on the rigger doing the work on their reserve, harness-container, to tell them when this or that is due. Like 4-yr. cks., batteries, I&R's and etc. The dates of mfgr. are on the packing data card, of course. I have had jumpers call me and ask when their rig is due I&R! I put a little flourescent colored sticker on their reserve handle with the due date on it! I guess, because we keep a record of our work (log book) it's 'easier' to pick-up the phone and call their rigger than to check the packing data card. Then too, I've known one or two who didn't know where it was on their harness-container. These were not just 'beginners', either! Personally, I don't understand that thinking and maybe, you have a valid point, in that they should quit skydiving!
In trying to inform some folks of various things pertaining to their rigs, I have gotten the response; "I don't want to know... you're the rigger! I just want to jump!" Go figure!Crazy

Chuck


sducoach  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 1:33 PM
Post #18 of 69 (1847 views)
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Re: [dragon2] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Saskia,

No Problem here brother!

The DZ.com is starting to act like the NG with all the "whinners" looking for cheese. There are a lot of "experts" here that mis-represent their skill levels, ratings, etc. Just will not let them get this post off line like they do so many others.

We have people who post as "experts" in every forum you can find with very "little" experience. The post is for new riggers that need to know. Experienced riggers should know.

Hang in there Brother!

Blues,

J.E.


sducoach  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 1:50 PM
Post #19 of 69 (1830 views)
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Re: [masterrig] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Chuck,

I was given one last Thursday without a packing card. I had to call the last rigger to pack it that I knew of to check the date! I knew the last rigger had caught a pencil pack by the owner and pulled the card and the silver!

Skydivers, got to love em!!!!!!

Blues,

J.E.


masterrig  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 1:56 PM
Post #20 of 69 (1825 views)
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Re: [sducoach] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Coach,

I know of 3 of my 'regular' customers who were going to a DZ out of town. They called me at 7:00PM, on a Friday, wanting to know if I could I&R all 3 rigs by 11:00PM, that evening. I told them I might get one, but not all three. I didn't hear any more from them that evening. When the three rigs came due again, not one of them had a packing card with it! You don't suppose...Sly

Chuck


(This post was edited by masterrig on Mar 29, 2004, 1:59 PM)


sducoach  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 2:02 PM
Post #21 of 69 (1817 views)
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Re: [masterrig] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

No..............................

Not skydivers!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was funny when I heard the story. Guy came in and the rigger had his packing card and silver handle waiting for him............

Blues,

J.E.


masterrig  (D License)

Mar 29, 2004, 2:07 PM
Post #22 of 69 (1812 views)
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Re: [sducoach] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool Gotta love it!
I considered charging double if, I saw where my name had been forged. I got a rubber stamp with my number and seal symbol.
In hind-sight, I should've stuck with charging double!Wink

Chuck


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 29, 2004, 2:20 PM
Post #23 of 69 (1803 views)
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Re: [dragon2] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

I did not mean to start a pissing contest. I pointed out that the body of the post did not mention "new riggers". My point being all riggers should pay attention when working on someone's rig. Being that yourself and PhreeZone are not riggers, you should make sure your rigger, new or experienced, does the job his is paid to do. That is to re-certify your rig for 120 more days, and that means checking everything.
Sparky


webracer  (D 24550)

Mar 29, 2004, 2:48 PM
Post #24 of 69 (1793 views)
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Re: [sducoach] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone has to be careful.
I just found an A&P that had the cypres s/n right, but dom was listed on the datacard as 07/00, when actually it was 12/96.
I know the rigger, and we straightened it out. He is very thorough and experienced, it was just a paperwork error. I am a new rigger (just over a year).
Anyone is at risk of human error. Rig like their life depends on it (really?).


PackerBarry  (C License)

Mar 29, 2004, 7:45 PM
Post #25 of 69 (1732 views)
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Re: [webracer] New Riggers Please Be Careful [In reply to] Can't Post

lots of good points brought up in this thread and a few cases of thin skins... people need to look at the observations as points to pay special attention to, if it applies to them, great, learn and get better, if it doesn't don't sweat it. I've seen some really weird stuff come past me... things that the previous rigger missed... no big deal, someone caught it and fixed it... sometimes a call to the previous rigger is an appreciated "thanks man" and other times it's a defensive diatribe... if you're professional and really care about what you're doing... ie, saving people's lives, if you make a mistake and get called on it... it's not a matter of someone having a dick measuring contest, it should be seen as a fellow professional helping you to improve.... another comment about the skydiver knowing when his equipment is due... I think skydivers should keep track of this stuff, but the reality of the situation is that they don't in many cases, many skydivers have fallen for this line of marketing bullshit about how this is safer than driving your car.... bs... you're jumping out of a plane for the love of god, yes we have good equipment etc... but you're still jumping out of a plane... have respect for the risks and learn your equipment... at our last safety day we had 3 jumpers go through emergency procedures in reverse and then argue the point with an S&TA... they had started at a ripcord dropzone with a single point cutaway... then bought modern systems and never, no even once, thought to ask what the difference was in the two handles... just figured that since they learned on a rig with one handle on the left side that they should go ahead and pull the silver first and then the extra one for good measure... actual quote by the way... I hate to say it, but it's our job to keep an eye on these kids... they want to play but want someone else to pack it, clean it, maintain it and fix everything for them.... product of our spoiled society... that's why we can make the big bucks.... another point about the rigger mills, I agree that short courses don't produce quality riggers immediately, it's just impossible to cram expereince into that amount of time... there's nothing wrong with that as long as they know their limitations and work with a more experienced rigger and continue to improve their knowledge base.... I have a serious prob with those that walk out after a week and a half and actually believe that they know it all, they are dangerous... I got lucky and was in a position where I had a master rigger and a seriously over qualified senior rigger willing to spend months with me filling my head with information and walking me through everything, from the tricks of getting a racer or a wings or a reflex pop top to snuggle down, to how to deal with several different types of diapers, to dealing with ballistically spread military canopies..... I got lucky, some don' t have this luxuary and the only way they have to go is through the mill...it's all of our duties to police ourselves and help each other out--- if someone calls you and tells you of a mistake that you made, don't get pissy, say thank you and learn from it... i was once told that all riggers make mistakes, the good ones learn and improve and the great ones catch the mistake before it gets out the door


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