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From a high alt mal when do you cut away?

 

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aspiff120  (A License)

Mar 26, 2004, 8:20 AM
Post #1 of 40 (1682 views)
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From a high alt mal when do you cut away? Can't Post

Here is my story..

I was doing a cross country and on deployment at 12k I had a mal. My toggle was up in my lines. I worked the risers and did what I had to-do and got it down and control. But this was not done till like 9k or at least thats when I looked at the Alti.

I would like to know when other people would cut it away. I must say that if this was to happen under 4k it would have been gone quickly. And I was about to cut away but I knew I had some time on my hands.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 26, 2004, 8:33 AM
Post #2 of 40 (1670 views)
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Re: [aspiff120] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

At that altitude? Based on the controllability of the canopy, I'd fly it back to the dz and chop around 3000. Of course if there was no way I could do that I'd just ditch it then and there.

Guess it would entirely depend on the situation.

Blue skies
Ian


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 26, 2004, 9:06 AM
Post #3 of 40 (1631 views)
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Re: [aspiff120] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here is my story..

I was doing a cross country and on deployment at 12k I had a mal. My toggle was up in my lines. I worked the risers and did what I had to-do and got it down and control. But this was not done till like 9k or at least thats when I looked at the Alti.

I would like to know when other people would cut it away. I must say that if this was to happen under 4k it would have been gone quickly. And I was about to cut away but I knew I had some time on my hands.

IF you were able to get your canopy under control and able to steer it with your risers, why don't you just land it with your rear risers?


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Mar 26, 2004, 9:21 AM
Post #4 of 40 (1617 views)
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Re: [bodypilot1] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IF you were able to get your canopy under control and able to steer it with your risers, why don't you just land it with your rear risers?

I personally would not recommend that to anyone unless the person has practiced rear riser landings and feels comfortable with them.

As far as the original question goes I would agree with what Ian said. If it's fairly steerable but not landable then I'd try to get it over the dropzone and cutaway around 3K. If it's complete crap then I'd chop it right there.

My first cutaway was from a CRW entanglement at around 5500 feet. I cutaway right there, no need to wait.

It all depends on the situation, but generally the higher up I am the more time I'll take to try to get the canopy flying.


chuckbrown  (D 19538)

Mar 26, 2004, 9:37 AM
Post #5 of 40 (1601 views)
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Re: [aspiff120] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if it was a complete wad of junk, I'd ride it down to a lower altitude. Chop a canopy at high altitude and you'll never see it again. Besides all that altitude gives you a lot more time to try and save the situation. I've corrected malfunctions that I was planning on cutting away from because I had the time.


696GrocuttT  (C 103116)

Mar 26, 2004, 9:52 AM
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Re: [chuckbrown] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Even if it was a complete wad of junk, I'd ride it down to a lower altitude. Chop a canopy at high altitude and you'll never see it again. Besides all that altitude gives you a lot more time to try and save the situation. I've corrected malfunctions that I was planning on cutting away from because I had the time.

I see what you are saying, but I would be worried about getting obsessed with trying to clear it, and loosing track of altitude. Your decent rate on some mals can be reasonably high.

Plus I can imagine that being under a nice spinning lineover or something wouldn't be to pleasant either Wink


(This post was edited by 696GrocuttT on Mar 26, 2004, 9:55 AM)


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 26, 2004, 9:54 AM
Post #7 of 40 (1590 views)
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Re: [NeedToJump] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

  
In reply to:
I personally would not recommend that to anyone unless the person has practiced rear riser landings and feels comfortable with them.

His profile, nor his post states his experience.
Surely you don't want to do something your not comfortable with doing. The USPA student program was changed in order to have the students get more used to flying their canopy using the risers and hopefully "keep using them" in order to be a good canopy pilot, and not just to get through their canopy skills section of their A licence card and then stop using the risers. If you choose to make the choice of cutting away a steerable canopy and using your reserve to land, I'd suggest getting more comfortable using your risers to land. Your landing will be abit faster but you wont have to use your "last chance", as reserves have been known to malfunction too?Unsure
I suggest learning to fly the canopy using the risers and being able to LAND your canopy using them! Steering lines can break below the 3000ft or the altitude your comfortable cutting away at, then what will you do?Unsure
If you say the canopy your jumping "lands too fast" using your rear risers? Then the canopy your jumping is too small for you......
Be safe.


chuckbrown  (D 19538)

Mar 26, 2004, 9:58 AM
Post #8 of 40 (1583 views)
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Re: [696GrocuttT] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Being under any malfunction sucks. You're absolutely correct, though; always maintain altitude awareness.


skyjunior  (D 23219)

Mar 26, 2004, 10:13 AM
Post #9 of 40 (1560 views)
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Re: [chuckbrown] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a friend who deployed at about 12000 and had a nice spinning mal, if he would have stayed with it until lower he probably would have been unconcious, so his malfunction was cut-a-way about 10000. He make the right choice and we got his canapy back and his freebag.


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Mar 26, 2004, 10:16 AM
Post #10 of 40 (1555 views)
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Re: [bodypilot1] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you say the canopy your jumping "lands too fast" using your rear risers? Then the canopy your jumping is too small for you......

Agreed


crzjp20  (A 45548)

Mar 26, 2004, 10:17 AM
Post #11 of 40 (1555 views)
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Re: [aspiff120] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

ok so im a student so i will tell my experience but not advice....


i had a high mal last week. I knew i couldnt fix it so i chopped at like 2.8. Why, so i coud calm myself down, get back to the DZ and not be freaking out with a low cuttaway.

if you can not land it or fix it then why would you hang on to it?


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 26, 2004, 10:21 AM
Post #12 of 40 (1552 views)
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Re: [crzjp20] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if you can not land it or fix it then why would you hang on to it?

You don't.....


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 26, 2004, 10:45 AM
Post #13 of 40 (1537 views)
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Re: [NeedToJump] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I personally would not recommend that to anyone unless the person has practiced rear riser landings and feels comfortable with them.

Personally I don't think anyone should be jumping a sport main that they cannot land on rear risers.


SkydiveMO  (D License)

Mar 26, 2004, 11:04 AM
Post #14 of 40 (1524 views)
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Re: [aspiff120] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you've got time to fix your main use it. If you don't have time don't waste it, cut away and pull the reserve. I shoot a lot of video which has me pulling high, I've had a couple wild openings that if I'd pulled at 2,000ft I would have chopped right away. With the extra altitude and time I was able to get things back under my control. I think the leason learned here is watch your altitude closely if you do try and fix a problem. With some malfuctions you can burn up altitude quicker then you think.


aspiff120  (A License)

Mar 26, 2004, 11:05 AM
Post #15 of 40 (1522 views)
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Re: [bodypilot1] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


His profile, nor his post states his experience.

Be safe.

I have a little over 200 jumps. Loaded 1.11 on a Tri 190. I have about 60 jumps junder this main but it was only my 3rd jump at this DZ. I must admit that the lose of my main was on my mind.


christelsabine  (D 10828)

Mar 26, 2004, 11:14 AM
Post #16 of 40 (1514 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
could you explain to a beginner, what in detail you consider a "sport main"?

my first and only mal was on jump No. 53, opening altitute 1.000m, no high speed malfunction. impossible to settle situation, had to cut away and was under reserve at about 450 m. anyhow, at this stage of knowledge, i would not have been able to land a canopy with any risers whatsoever(size was 190 sq.ft).

thx


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 26, 2004, 11:21 AM
Post #17 of 40 (1509 views)
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Re: [christelsabine] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
what in detail you consider a "sport main"?

Any main you would normaly jump in your "sport rig".

Not a tandem main, although it can be done.


I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't chop whatever your malfunction may be. But if you can not get a safe (doesn't need to be a standup) landing out of your regular main via rear risers, you might want to re-think the choice of main on your back.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 26, 2004, 11:48 AM
Post #18 of 40 (1488 views)
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Re: [aspiff120] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dangers of chopping high:

You may lose your freebag/main
You may not make it back from a long spot if you deploy your reserve right away
You may be discarding a fixable main for an unknown reserve

Dangers of waiting:

Your canopy may be damaged by a long ride with a lineover
A spin may develop that leaves you incapable of cutting away due to unconsciousness or riser torque
You may lose altitude awareness while messing with it


christelsabine  (D 10828)

Mar 26, 2004, 11:55 AM
Post #19 of 40 (1480 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
thx for answer.

let me tell you a small detail: until today, i never had any teaching moment on front or rear risers. nor during aff, neither after. all i know, whatever i tried high up in the sky, was made by myself, listened from others, learning by talking, asking. that's one side.

on the other hand: even aff-students are facing mals, never learned to use risers: what are they supposed to do? in case they survive, should they ask for a BIGGER main? bigger than present lets say, 240 sqft? this should be the answer? i doubt that.

my present main is 195 sq.ft. since more than hundred jumps. i will not "up-size". i will talk and learn and look for cc-courses. i already did one.

greetings fm Germany


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 26, 2004, 12:43 PM
Post #20 of 40 (1457 views)
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Re: [aspiff120] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing you should keep in mind. Reserve canopies are packed to open quick. The higher you are the quicker they will open. Quicker equals higher opening forces and higher opening forces can lead to damage on opening.
There is no cut and dry answer to your question. There are many factors that can affect the out come.
Sparky


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 27, 2004, 2:29 PM
Post #21 of 40 (1327 views)
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Re: [christelsabine] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

on the other hand: even aff-students are facing mals, never learned to use risers: what are they supposed to do? in case they survive, should they ask for a BIGGER main? bigger than present lets say, 240 sqft? this should be the answer? i doubt that.

The USPA FJC will tell you if you cannot do a "complete controlabilty check with your main canopy, to cut it away and go to your reserve. Because they have NOT had enough training to fly the canopy with the risers at this point. If they are jumping something like a 240 and they arent some where over 240lbs? Getting them a bigger parachute will be hard, but NOT impossible. And if you ever found yourself under your hard deck to cut away your main, without the ability to steer with your toggles or your risers or the knowledge how to? Your best bet is to do that other little landing thing we teach you in the FJC, the PLF, and hope you avoid hitting anything other than open field.
Be safe.


VNugget

Mar 27, 2004, 11:28 PM
Post #22 of 40 (1289 views)
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Re: [billvon] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Dangers of chopping high:

...
You may not make it back from a long spot if you deploy your reserve right away
...

Sorry, but this wuffo has to ask: Wouldn't you stand a higher chance of making it back with a higher deployment? I thought you had a much higher glide ratio under canopy than during freefall, even with optimum tracking.

(Or are we talking about a downwind jump run? They're usually upwind, right?)


cruzit  (D 17907)

Mar 28, 2004, 5:26 AM
Post #23 of 40 (1252 views)
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Re: [VNugget] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Wouldn't you stand a higher chance of making it back with a higher deployment?

Generally speaking, winds aloft can be substantially higher than ground winds. Even if you exit with a perfect spot, if you chop high, you could be pushed back substantially. I once chopped at 10K and landed 2 miles off.


The111  (D 29246)

Mar 28, 2004, 3:31 PM
Post #24 of 40 (1212 views)
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Re: [cruzit] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Also... my reserve doesn't get nearly the same glide ratio as my main, meaning no penetration on a very windy day where the main is only slightly penetrating, as I found out the other day.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 28, 2004, 6:12 PM
Post #25 of 40 (1193 views)
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Re: [The111] From a high alt mal when do you cut away? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Also... my reserve doesn't get nearly the same glide ratio as my
> main, meaning no penetration on a very windy day . . .

Glide ratio doesn't have much to do with penetration, that's all forward speed. Many people have smaller reserves than mains, which means they will often be better off under their reserve. A lot of experienced jumpers have tiny mains, which means sometimes they jump in winds that will be OK with their mains, but are too strong for their reserves to make headway.


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