Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Philosophy of banning the Argus
 

pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 22, 2011, 6:17 PM

Views: 6752
Shortcut
Philosophy of banning the Argus Can't Post

Some opinions:

Although I'm not happy with how slowly Aviacom has appreciated the Argus cutter issues and dealt with them, the way things get banned these days I wonder about the philosophy of doing so.

The Argus clearly has a problem cutting loops in some conditions. I can see rig companies wishing to be dissociated with a "loser", but some companies sure react fast and strongly once the word gets passed around, to ban the Argus in their rigs.

I bet the US FAA rules on manufacturer approval for AAD installations is driving this process, that rig manufacturer don't want to be linked officially to a product with a problem, that's physically installed inside their rigs. Wusses. They don't ban other potentially dangerous things that people might jump with.

Unless manufacturers have a specific rig configuration that changes the odds of something going wrong, then if there's an industry wide warning they don't really have to jump on the band wagon with their own specific rules.

The idea of banning an AAD temporarily also depends on one's philosophy on AADs.

For students and tandems, there's pretty much agreement that they should be protected with a decent AAD. But for experienced jumpers, the situation is different.

The Argus isn't much danger to others on the plane or the sky, as it isn't firing inadvertently. It would only be a problem if one smoked it low, had the loop not cut properly, and go up again without checking one's AAD. That could be dealt with largely by bulletins about increased inspections, just as is done with aircraft part problems while waiting for a long term solution.

The Argus also creates little increased risk to the jumper if they behave properly. An Argus can only impede a manual reserve pull if you pull your reserve a lot lower than you should, if one has a certain cutter location and the Argus happens to cut the loop poorly just before you get the reserve extracted.

If someone's philosophy is that AAD's should be mandatory, then the Argus is doing a lousy job and perhaps rigs and jumpers should be grounded.

But if one's philosophy is that AAD's are an optional safety device, then Argus' are still useful. If you lose altitude awareness or are knocked silly in freefall, it quite easily still has a 90+% chance to save your life. That may be a good tradeoff against a chance of jamming up (depending on the rig) if you pull your reserve below 1000'.

(My biases: I'm in the group who believes that AAD's should be optional once off student status. And I've got a Cypres 2.)

As much as Argus' cutters and their response to the problem sucks, I'm not sure Argus' should all be grounded.

Subject User Time
Philosophy of banning the Argus pchapman Send a private message to pchapman Mar 22, 2011, 6:17 PM
    Re: [pchapman] Philosophy of banning the Argus Beachbum Send a private message to Beachbum Mar 22, 2011, 6:38 PM
    Re: [pchapman] Philosophy of banning the Argus davelepka Send a private message to davelepka Mar 22, 2011, 6:39 PM
        Re: [davelepka] Philosophy of banning the Argus riggerpaul Send a private message to riggerpaul Mar 22, 2011, 10:06 PM
            Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus Unstable Send a private message to Unstable Mar 22, 2011, 10:28 PM
            Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus LongWayToFall Send a private message to LongWayToFall Mar 23, 2011, 12:58 AM
            Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus davelepka Send a private message to davelepka Mar 23, 2011, 5:12 AM
            Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus Ron Send a private message to Ron Mar 23, 2011, 10:02 AM
                Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus riggerpaul Send a private message to riggerpaul Mar 23, 2011, 10:38 AM
                    Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus BrianM Send a private message to BrianM Mar 23, 2011, 10:49 AM
                        Re: [BrianM] Philosophy of banning the Argus riggerpaul Send a private message to riggerpaul Mar 23, 2011, 11:08 AM
                            Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus BrianM Send a private message to BrianM Mar 23, 2011, 11:26 AM
                                Re: [BrianM] Philosophy of banning the Argus riggerpaul Send a private message to riggerpaul Mar 23, 2011, 11:49 AM
                                    Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus BlindBrick Send a private message to BlindBrick Mar 23, 2011, 11:51 AM
                                        Re: [BlindBrick] Philosophy of banning the Argus pchapman Send a private message to pchapman Mar 23, 2011, 12:25 PM
                                        Re: [BlindBrick] Philosophy of banning the Argus Ron Send a private message to Ron Mar 23, 2011, 5:42 PM
                                            Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus ridestrong Send a private message to ridestrong Mar 23, 2011, 6:05 PM
                                            Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus iwo Send a private message to iwo Mar 23, 2011, 6:34 PM
                                                Re: [iwo] Philosophy of banning the Argus Ron Send a private message to Ron Mar 23, 2011, 8:26 PM
                                                    Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus iwo Send a private message to iwo Mar 23, 2011, 8:44 PM
                                                    Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus LloydDobbler Send a private message to LloydDobbler Mar 24, 2011, 2:32 PM
                                                        Re: [LloydDobbler] Philosophy of banning the Argus Unstable Send a private message to Unstable Mar 24, 2011, 4:33 PM
                                                            Re: [Unstable] Philosophy of banning the Argus yoink Send a private message to yoink Mar 24, 2011, 4:37 PM
                                                                Re: [yoink] Philosophy of banning the Argus Unstable Send a private message to Unstable Mar 24, 2011, 4:42 PM
                                                                    Re: [Unstable] Philosophy of banning the Argus yoink Send a private message to yoink Mar 24, 2011, 4:45 PM
                                                                    Re: [Unstable] Philosophy of banning the Argus sundevil777 Send a private message to sundevil777 Mar 24, 2011, 7:16 PM
                                                                    Re: [Unstable] Philosophy of banning the Argus nigel99 Send a private message to nigel99 Mar 25, 2011, 1:41 AM
                                                    Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus champu Send a private message to champu Mar 25, 2011, 4:27 PM
                                                        Re: [champu] Philosophy of banning the Argus imsparticus Send a private message to imsparticus Mar 25, 2011, 4:39 PM
                                                            Re: [imsparticus] Philosophy of banning the Argus champu Send a private message to champu Mar 25, 2011, 4:49 PM
                                                        Re: [champu] Philosophy of banning the Argus Ron Send a private message to Ron Mar 25, 2011, 4:53 PM
                                                            Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus champu Send a private message to champu Mar 25, 2011, 5:11 PM
                                                                Re: [champu] Philosophy of banning the Argus nigel99 Send a private message to nigel99 Mar 26, 2011, 1:58 AM
                                                            Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus champu Send a private message to champu Mar 27, 2011, 10:44 AM
                                        Re: [BlindBrick] Philosophy of banning the Argus piisfish Send a private message to piisfish Mar 24, 2011, 12:48 AM
                                        Re: [BlindBrick] Philosophy of banning the Argus phoenixlpr Send a private message to phoenixlpr Mar 24, 2011, 1:41 AM
                                            Re: [phoenixlpr] Philosophy of banning the Argus piisfish Send a private message to piisfish Mar 24, 2011, 2:18 AM
                                            Re: [phoenixlpr] Philosophy of banning the Argus iliketofly Send a private message to iliketofly Mar 24, 2011, 8:09 AM
                                                Re: [iliketofly] Philosophy of banning the Argus Ron Send a private message to Ron Mar 24, 2011, 9:24 AM
                                                    Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus phoenixlpr Send a private message to phoenixlpr Mar 24, 2011, 10:28 AM
                                                        Re: [phoenixlpr] Philosophy of banning the Argus brwonder Send a private message to brwonder Mar 24, 2011, 10:54 AM
                                                            Re: [brwonder] Philosophy of banning the Argus phoenixlpr Send a private message to phoenixlpr Mar 24, 2011, 10:59 AM
                                                        Re: [phoenixlpr] Philosophy of banning the Argus Ron Send a private message to Ron Mar 24, 2011, 12:05 PM
                                                Re: [iliketofly] Philosophy of banning the Argus phoenixlpr Send a private message to phoenixlpr Mar 24, 2011, 10:18 AM
                                                    Re: [phoenixlpr] Philosophy of banning the Argus skydiverek Send a private message to skydiverek Mar 24, 2011, 10:25 AM
                                                        Re: [skydiverek] Philosophy of banning the Argus billvon Send a private message to billvon Mar 24, 2011, 10:38 AM
                                                            Re: [billvon] Philosophy of banning the Argus skydiverek Send a private message to skydiverek Mar 24, 2011, 11:41 AM
                                                                Re: [skydiverek] Philosophy of banning the Argus JerryBaumchen Send a private message to JerryBaumchen Mar 24, 2011, 3:56 PM
                                                        Re: [skydiverek] Philosophy of banning the Argus phoenixlpr Send a private message to phoenixlpr Mar 24, 2011, 10:57 AM
                                    Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus BrianM Send a private message to BrianM Mar 23, 2011, 12:12 PM
                                Re: [BrianM] Philosophy of banning the Argus riggerpaul Send a private message to riggerpaul Mar 23, 2011, 11:52 AM
                        Re: [BrianM] Philosophy of banning the Argus sriddy Send a private message to sriddy Mar 23, 2011, 12:34 PM
                            Re: [sriddy] Philosophy of banning the Argus BrianM Send a private message to BrianM Mar 23, 2011, 12:40 PM
                                Re: [BrianM] Philosophy of banning the Argus sriddy Send a private message to sriddy Mar 23, 2011, 1:12 PM
                                    Re: Philosophy of banning the Argus SimonBones Send a private message to SimonBones Mar 23, 2011, 4:28 PM
                                        Re: [SimonBones] Philosophy of banning the Argus billvon Send a private message to billvon Mar 23, 2011, 4:39 PM
                                            Re: [billvon] Philosophy of banning the Argus riggerpaul Send a private message to riggerpaul Mar 23, 2011, 5:27 PM
                                                Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus billvon Send a private message to billvon Mar 23, 2011, 5:32 PM
                                                    Re: [billvon] Philosophy of banning the Argus riggerpaul Send a private message to riggerpaul Mar 23, 2011, 6:34 PM
                                            Re: [billvon] Philosophy of banning the Argus SimonBones Send a private message to SimonBones Mar 23, 2011, 8:07 PM
                                                Re: [SimonBones] Philosophy of banning the Argus LloydDobbler Send a private message to LloydDobbler Mar 24, 2011, 2:09 PM
                                                    Re: [LloydDobbler] Philosophy of banning the Argus imsparticus Send a private message to imsparticus Mar 25, 2011, 4:45 PM
                                                        Re: [imsparticus] Philosophy of banning the Argus slotperfect Send a private message to slotperfect Mar 26, 2011, 3:45 AM
                                                            Re: [slotperfect] Philosophy of banning the Argus skydiverek Send a private message to skydiverek Mar 26, 2011, 3:48 AM
                    Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus Ron Send a private message to Ron Mar 23, 2011, 11:04 AM
                        Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus fgersch Send a private message to fgersch Mar 23, 2011, 5:24 PM
    Re: [pchapman] Philosophy of banning the Argus sriddy Send a private message to sriddy Mar 23, 2011, 7:50 AM
        Re: [sriddy] Philosophy of banning the Argus riggerpaul Send a private message to riggerpaul Mar 23, 2011, 8:17 AM
            Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus piisfish Send a private message to piisfish Mar 23, 2011, 8:48 AM
                Re: [piisfish] Philosophy of banning the Argus CrazyAl Send a private message to CrazyAl Mar 23, 2011, 9:05 AM
                    Re: [CrazyAl] Philosophy of banning the Argus billvon Send a private message to billvon Mar 23, 2011, 9:19 AM
                        Re: [billvon] Philosophy of banning the Argus CrazyAl Send a private message to CrazyAl Mar 23, 2011, 9:24 AM
                            Re: [CrazyAl] Philosophy of banning the Argus piisfish Send a private message to piisfish Mar 23, 2011, 9:42 AM
                Re: [piisfish] Philosophy of banning the Argus riggerpaul Send a private message to riggerpaul Mar 23, 2011, 9:11 AM
                    Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus piisfish Send a private message to piisfish Mar 23, 2011, 9:22 AM
                    Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus CygnusX-1 Send a private message to CygnusX-1 Mar 23, 2011, 9:47 AM
            Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus ridestrong Send a private message to ridestrong Mar 23, 2011, 9:15 AM
                Re: [ridestrong] Philosophy of banning the Argus riggerpaul Send a private message to riggerpaul Mar 23, 2011, 10:00 AM
                    Re: [riggerpaul] Philosophy of banning the Argus ridestrong Send a private message to ridestrong Mar 23, 2011, 10:15 AM
                        Re: [ridestrong] Philosophy of banning the Argus BrianM Send a private message to BrianM Mar 23, 2011, 10:45 AM
                            Re: [BrianM] Philosophy of banning the Argus ridestrong Send a private message to ridestrong Mar 23, 2011, 10:59 AM
                Re: [ridestrong] Philosophy of banning the Argus BrianM Send a private message to BrianM Mar 23, 2011, 10:34 AM
                    Re: [BrianM] Philosophy of banning the Argus nigel99 Send a private message to nigel99 Mar 23, 2011, 11:02 AM
                        Re: [nigel99] Philosophy of banning the Argus BrianM Send a private message to BrianM Mar 23, 2011, 11:21 AM
    Re: [pchapman] Philosophy of banning the Argus Ron Send a private message to Ron Mar 23, 2011, 9:59 AM
        Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus piisfish Send a private message to piisfish Mar 24, 2011, 12:42 AM
            Re: [piisfish] Philosophy of banning the Argus Ron Send a private message to Ron Mar 24, 2011, 12:09 PM
                Re: [Ron] Philosophy of banning the Argus piisfish Send a private message to piisfish Mar 24, 2011, 2:27 PM
                    Re: [piisfish] Philosophy of banning the Argus billvon Send a private message to billvon Mar 24, 2011, 2:36 PM
                        Re: [billvon] Philosophy of banning the Argus piisfish Send a private message to piisfish Mar 24, 2011, 2:45 PM
                            Re: [piisfish] Philosophy of banning the Argus billvon Send a private message to billvon Mar 24, 2011, 2:53 PM
                                Re: [billvon] Philosophy of banning the Argus piisfish Send a private message to piisfish Mar 24, 2011, 3:12 PM
                                    Re: [piisfish] Philosophy of banning the Argus billvon Send a private message to billvon Mar 24, 2011, 3:43 PM
                                        Re: [billvon] Philosophy of banning the Argus piisfish Send a private message to piisfish Mar 24, 2011, 4:03 PM
                                    Re: [piisfish] Philosophy of banning the Argus hcsvader Send a private message to hcsvader Mar 24, 2011, 5:58 PM
                                        Re: [hcsvader] Philosophy of banning the Argus riggerpaul Send a private message to riggerpaul Mar 24, 2011, 6:33 PM
                                        Re: Philosophy of banning the Argus danielcroft Send a private message to danielcroft Mar 24, 2011, 6:34 PM
                                            Re: [danielcroft] Philosophy of banning the Argus mjosparky Send a private message to mjosparky Mar 25, 2011, 1:05 PM
                                                Re: [mjosparky] Philosophy of banning the Argus danielcroft Send a private message to danielcroft Mar 25, 2011, 9:32 PM
                                                    Re: [danielcroft] Philosophy of banning the Argus mjosparky Send a private message to mjosparky Mar 25, 2011, 10:08 PM
                                                        Re: [mjosparky] Philosophy of banning the Argus danielcroft Send a private message to danielcroft Mar 26, 2011, 7:54 PM
    Re: [pchapman] Philosophy of banning the Argus gbstuar Send a private message to gbstuar Mar 23, 2011, 11:46 AM
        Re: [gbstuar] Philosophy of banning the Argus DiverMike Send a private message to DiverMike Mar 23, 2011, 11:54 AM
            Re: [DiverMike] Philosophy of banning the Argus Ron Send a private message to Ron Mar 23, 2011, 5:51 PM
    Re: [pchapman] Philosophy of banning the Argus subject21 Send a private message to subject21 Mar 23, 2011, 8:46 PM
        Re: [subject21] Philosophy of banning the Argus Unstable Send a private message to Unstable Mar 23, 2011, 9:42 PM
            Re: [Unstable] Philosophy of banning the Argus NovaTTT Send a private message to NovaTTT Mar 23, 2011, 10:09 PM
            Re: [Unstable] Philosophy of banning the Argus Unstable Send a private message to Unstable Mar 23, 2011, 10:10 PM
                Re: [Unstable] Philosophy of banning the Argus brwonder Send a private message to brwonder Mar 24, 2011, 10:13 AM
                    Re: [brwonder] Philosophy of banning the Argus ufk22 Send a private message to ufk22 Mar 24, 2011, 10:36 AM
                        Re: [ufk22] Philosophy of banning the Argus brwonder Send a private message to brwonder Mar 24, 2011, 11:03 AM
                Re: [Unstable] Philosophy of banning the Argus LloydDobbler Send a private message to LloydDobbler Mar 24, 2011, 2:36 PM
        Re: [subject21] Philosophy of banning the Argus pchapman Send a private message to pchapman Mar 23, 2011, 10:21 PM
    Re: [pchapman] Philosophy of banning the Argus pchapman Send a private message to pchapman Mar 26, 2011, 7:39 PM
    Re: [pchapman] Philosophy of banning the Argus JerryBaumchen Send a private message to JerryBaumchen Mar 26, 2011, 7:46 PM
        Re: [JerryBaumchen] Philosophy of banning the Argus jerm Send a private message to jerm Mar 27, 2011, 7:00 PM
    Re: [pchapman] Philosophy of banning the Argus pwilby2 Send a private message to pwilby2 Mar 27, 2011, 7:28 AM

 
 
 


Search for (options)