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freefliers out first??

 

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skygirl1  (A 45811)

Feb 11, 2004, 7:21 AM
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freefliers out first?? Can't Post

Question......my bf is a freeflier and has always been required to exit last......until we came to florida.........I am still a student and he got on the load to jump and watch my exit......he was told while boarding freefliers go out first.......he just shook his head and followed orders.....he was really pissed off about it and won't jump there anymore......any feedback???? would be appreciated....Cool

skygirl1


skyyhi  (B 26847)

Feb 11, 2004, 7:27 AM
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a thought but at my DZ (Elsinore) all experienced jumpers almost always exit before students in the normal progression - belly flyers then freeflyers - with very few exceptions. . .could this be what happened? Just a guess. . .


pds  (D 27641)

Feb 11, 2004, 7:32 AM
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

there seem to be several schools of thought on this and the situation you describe is not unheard of. i fall on the side of prof k and bryan burke and you bf.

i am sure you are going to get the full 411 from the entire spectrum.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Feb 11, 2004, 7:39 AM
Post #4 of 113 (6248 views)
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Gotta be Zhills, correct?

There are some people out there that perfer to go out first for lots of reasons, not all of them are in the best idea. Some people think the fastest canopy should be first, others thing the fastest faller, still others think the largest group no matter what they are doing.

Play with the freefall tools on Kallends website, it shows why belly is best to go first. I was not happy with freefliers going first at Zhills either. Unimpressed


lazyfrog

Feb 11, 2004, 7:40 AM
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

different theories...
a friend also got asked to exit after the groups as he was solo, but he was doing speedskydiving Unsure
where I jump the fastest jump 1st... but I can still adapt to local beliefs and customs Tongue


skygirl1  (A 45811)

Feb 11, 2004, 7:47 AM
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Re: [lazyfrog] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

no....not Z-hills......he is questioning exiting before students..............is it a safety issue???

skygirl1


pds  (D 27641)

Feb 11, 2004, 7:54 AM
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
no....not Z-hills......he is questioning exiting before students..............is it a safety issue???

skygirl1

yes. students open higher also instructors rightly want to minimize risks and complications and having the whole sky with noone around is one way to do that . not to mention trigger happy freeflyers falling through canopies open at 5k.

of course i am not an instructor and could be speaking from the wrong orifice.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Feb 11, 2004, 8:02 AM
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

The standard exit order is belly largest to smallest group, free-fly largest to smallest, AFF, tandem, birdmen. Vertical seperation does not count for anything. Premature deployments, high pulls, low pulls, etc can quickly erase any planned vertical seperation. Horizontal seperation is the only way to ensure safety. Having belly-flying students and tandems exiting after free-flyers works out because of the long horizontal seperation between the first AFF/tandem and the last freeflyer. AFF take a while to get set up in the door and tandems should be experrienced enough to know to leave a lot of room after the last free-flyer. It also makes sense having the AFF and tandems exit after the belly and free flyers because they pull higher and can therefore take a longer spot than other jumpers and still make it back to the DZ.

Kallend's free-fall simulator is an excellent resource for proving why this exit order is the best.

Derek


lazyfrog

Feb 11, 2004, 8:11 AM
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

at my place students never exit last. Always someone to exit after the last student.
but we don't have a too big plane (max 10pax), maybe on busier DZ's the situation should be different.


carbonezone  (D 23582)

Feb 11, 2004, 8:17 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Z-Hills in the only place that I know that puts Freeflyers out first. I dont like it at all for the obvious reasons Shocked.
I simply ask for pilot for a go-around to ensure clear air and just go with the flow. Go-Arounds work for me but cost the DZ more Crazy!

I do however understand the canopy speed issues! But I think exit orders do not properly address canopy speed conflicts. Two Word.....Landing Pattern. If you want to do a down-wind landing....get out LOW!
Just my thoughts.
<<smooches>>
Tami


gus

Feb 11, 2004, 8:41 AM
Post #11 of 113 (6162 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Kallend's free-fall simulator is an excellent resource for proving why this exit order is the best.

That thing is taken as gospel round here. Is it a genuine simulation or is it a mockup to prove a point? I'd love to see some actual hard data, eg from a gps unit, on all this.

Gus


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Feb 11, 2004, 9:47 AM
Post #12 of 113 (6116 views)
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Re: [gus] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering its coming from a Physic's professor... its the real deal. You don't need a GPS unit, you can do it with physics and math.


jeremyneas  (D 20133)

Feb 11, 2004, 10:18 AM
Post #13 of 113 (6088 views)
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your B/F was right to be pissed. Derek mentioned that Horizontal Seperation was of key importance and this is true. Imagine.

A single freeflyer will cut through the air like a knife as compared to a 8 way RW belly. The 8 way will be more suseptible to drift in freefall (i.e. the upper winds). This 8 way could drift right over the single freeflyer and be dumping all around him...or into him.

By letting the smaller groups, and then the groups less suseptable to freefall drift go next, you allow the aircraft flight to give that seperation properly. And drift in freefall gets less and less as you progress to the smaller and faster groups. (A 2 way RW will drift more than a 4 way freefly)

Students and Tandems pull alot higher than normal, and have experienced instructors (hopefully) looking out.

Birdmen, depending on the DZ will go first or last.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 11, 2004, 10:25 AM
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Re: [jeremyneas] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Raeford, unless this has just changed in the past couple of months, also puts Freefliers out first. I didn't agree with it, but hey, it never led to any problems that I saw. I have never been to a dropzone that puts out freefall students before experienced skydivers (I have been instructing since 1985), so I don't know where that came from.


bmcd308  (D 27472)

Feb 11, 2004, 10:53 AM
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Re: [pds] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>>i fall on the side of prof k and bryan burke and you bf. <<

And everyone else who understands the difference between airspeed and groundspeed and basic principles of freefall drift.


You want slowest fallers out first, with limited exceptions (boards and BirdMen come to mind), with long climbouts first (so the door can be opened early and the plane can advance to the "spot" while the large group is climbing out). The slower fallers will be pushed back more by the wind, increasing their separation from the faster fallers, who will open at a reduced horizontal distance from their exit point over the ground.

Brent


kallend  (D 23151)

Feb 11, 2004, 10:56 AM
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Re: [gus] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Kallend's free-fall simulator is an excellent resource for proving why this exit order is the best.

That thing is taken as gospel round here. Is it a genuine simulation or is it a mockup to prove a point? I'd love to see some actual hard data, eg from a gps unit, on all this.

Gus

I'm not sure what you mean by "mockup". It's physics. It solves and graphs the equations of motion using the laws of physics and fluid dynamics.


Chrisky

Feb 11, 2004, 11:17 AM
Post #17 of 113 (6034 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Having jumped at DZs varying their exit orders, so i have quite some personal reference on which order i prefer from personal experience.

Ever since most DZs have adapted to the "big and slow to small and fast, then highpullers" order, i had a lot less close calls/"drop-bys" under canopy. FF don't go out first...


skygirl1  (A 45811)

Feb 11, 2004, 11:17 AM
Post #18 of 113 (6034 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I came from another state........and students always exited first.......i am new to this sport so I have no idea really about this.......that is why I came to this board....all the info is awsome and i take it all in....I am just trying to learn......every dropzone is differant and all have thier own rules.....thanx for all the awsome feedback so far.....

skygirl1


VanillaSkyGirl

Feb 11, 2004, 11:23 AM
Post #19 of 113 (6022 views)
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I came from another state........and students always exited first.......

What? Where is this? Shocked I've never heard of that...


skygirl1  (A 45811)

Feb 11, 2004, 11:27 AM
Post #20 of 113 (6015 views)
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Re: [VanillaSkyGirl] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

GOOD OLD WISCONSIN!!! The cheese head state...
seriously.....that is how it is.....everytime I jumped I was out first.........now this is a smaller dropzone where the main progression is static line......and we jump out of a c-182..........but students got out first...

skygirl1


bmcd308  (D 27472)

Feb 11, 2004, 11:30 AM
Post #21 of 113 (6010 views)
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Did students get out first on the same pass as other jumpers? Or did SL students get out first, then the plane went to altitude, and experienced jumpers got out?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 11, 2004, 11:36 AM
Post #22 of 113 (6005 views)
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I came from another state........and students always exited first.......

That's pretty common when you're dealing with cessnas and static lines; that way the JM has more direct control over the student. Cessnas don't usually have separation issues, which is why separation isn't much of a concern when dealing with them.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 11, 2004, 11:53 AM
Post #23 of 113 (5989 views)
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Re: [skygirl1] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
GOOD OLD WISCONSIN!!! The cheese head state...
seriously.....that is how it is.....everytime I jumped I was out first.........now this is a smaller dropzone where the main progression is static line......and we jump out of a c-182..........but students got out first...

skygirl1

See, that is an entirely different scenario altogether. Yes, in a Cessna, you are going to put students out first assuming SL or IAD progression.


gus

Feb 11, 2004, 12:13 PM
Post #24 of 113 (5971 views)
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Re: [kallend] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "mockup".

As in a simple animation.

Quote:
It's physics. It solves and graphs the equations of motion using the laws of physics and fluid dynamics.

Ok, that's what I was wondering. Thanks.

Gus


Ron

Feb 11, 2004, 12:38 PM
Post #25 of 113 (5952 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] freefliers out first?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Raeford, unless this has just changed in the past couple of months, also puts Freefliers out first. I didn't agree with it, but hey, it never led to any problems that I saw.

Raeford also takes two passes per load right?

That makes a big difference. It lets you get the seperation...the only time I have an issue with putting FF first is if the DZ or pilot gets pissed when I take a go around.....If they let me, then I don't really have an issue.


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