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Case of Jumping the wrong rig - August 2003

 

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Rdutch  (D 24618)

Aug 27, 2003, 5:17 AM
Post #1 of 128 (7299 views)
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Case of Jumping the wrong rig - August 2003 Can't Post

A jumper that just did a recert, was doing a solo and grabbed the wrong rig. The Jumper was expecting a saber 170 and instead ended up with a Velocity96. The jumper when he realised that he had a tiny canopy cutaway and pulled his reserve. He landed the PR113 nicely after setting up extremely high and did a long straight in. I saw the rig he was supposed to jump after and it looked nothing like the rig he was jumping, except it had grey on it. The size of the rigs were extremely different. Jumpers on the plane noticed the rig, but because the jumper was new to the dz they didnt know how experienced he was, and assumed the jumper was allowed to borrow the rig.

Always, Always! Check your gear before you get on the plane. A good gear check would have avoided this problem, and if there was any question if it was the rig he was using a simple question would have answered it. I dont know if the right answer to if he should have cut away his opened canopy I will post this in Saftey and Training.

Edited to add: The jumper was reported to have around 40 jumps.


(This post was edited by Tonto on Sep 5, 2005, 10:27 PM)


Ron

Aug 27, 2003, 5:28 AM
Post #2 of 128 (7210 views)
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Re: [Rdutch] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A good gear check would have avoided this
problem,

How would a gera check fix this? You are going to open the main and repack it?

In reply to:
and if there was any question if it was the rig he was using a simple question would have answered
it.

He didn't have a question he thought he had the right rig.

Maybe the school that is having this problem should have tags just like PD does on their gear.

In reply to:
I dont know if the right answer to if he should have cut away his opened canopy

He is alive, it was the right thing to do. I don't know if he could have landed the 96....And it seems he didn't either, so he did the right thing.


speedformula  (D License)

Aug 27, 2003, 6:43 AM
Post #3 of 128 (7109 views)
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Re: [Rdutch] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

hahahah that had to be real funny,
glad hes ok tough,
I think he did the right thing by cutting away, hmmm what else is he gonna try to do ? land it?
they'll be scrapping him off the landing area at worst.


lazyfrog

Aug 27, 2003, 6:49 AM
Post #4 of 128 (7101 views)
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Re: [Rdutch] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

big surprise...
but what if his reserve was smaller ???
what if he had a mal on his reserve ???

he decided he couldn't land it... OK, but is it really correct to chop something that flies correctly ???

lucky him, good vibes he had... Hope it continues Wink

-----


DJL  (D License)

Aug 27, 2003, 7:01 AM
Post #5 of 128 (7085 views)
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Re: [lazyfrog] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think he did the right thing but he's still a dumbshit and should receive serious counseling. I'm assuming he's willing to pay the guy for the repack and all-in-all feels like a real douch-bag.


SuFantasma  (D 26267)

Aug 27, 2003, 7:04 AM
Post #6 of 128 (7082 views)
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Re: [Rdutch] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks God he survived it !

Cutting away doesn't seem like the smartest of ideas. If the jumper realized he got the wrong rig, there is no way he could be sure about the status of the reserve in that rig ! However small the main canopy, the main met the Square, Steerable and Stable requirements.

Maybe we need a realistic equipment checklist that begins with Jumper, Brains, etc.

Cheers


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Aug 27, 2003, 7:11 AM
Post #7 of 128 (7071 views)
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Re: [SuFantasma] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks God he survived it !

Cutting away doesn't seem like the smartest of ideas. If the jumper realized he got the wrong rig, there is no way he could be sure about the status of the reserve in that rig ! However small the main canopy, the main met the Square, Steerable and Stable requirements.

Maybe we need a realistic equipment checklist that begins with Jumper, Brains, etc.

Cheers

The human mind is funny. There are all sorts of things that go through your head in a stressful situation. I once was under a PD 230 at 130 pounds. I was backing up big time over some houses and for a time I actually considered cutting away. You laugh now and I scratch my head about it but the thought was very real and I almost did it.

Maybe this person didn't do the exactly correct thing but he did get more nylon over his head than he had before. In this situation, I think he just may have done the right thing.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Aug 27, 2003, 7:20 AM
Post #8 of 128 (7063 views)
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Re: [Ron] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all - wow - wtf, how the hell does that happen? I paid attention to which rig was mine when I had less than a 100 jumps like mad, like the thing was my girlfriend or something.

Anyhow, I have a question, can one land a Velocity96 straight in without giving it some sort of swooping input - obviously with a final flare? Never been on a canopy that small or of that type so I'm just wondering what it would be like...


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Aug 27, 2003, 7:28 AM
Post #9 of 128 (7046 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

not as hard as people would lead you to believe. Scott Miller had everyone do at least one straight in approach. I found the 96 to land just fine, in fact I got a nice little surf out of it.

Think of it this way: If your canopies normal airspeed is 30mph then no matter what kind of landing you do, once you hit 30mph the flare is the same from that point on (That's the way Scott explained it - but a better job Smile).

Blue skies
Ian


Ron

Aug 27, 2003, 7:38 AM
Post #10 of 128 (7027 views)
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Re: [lazyfrog] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
but what if his reserve was smaller ???

A smaller reserve is still better than a HP canopy.

In reply to:
what if he had a mal on his reserve ???
possible, but not likley


Ron

Aug 27, 2003, 7:40 AM
Post #11 of 128 (7023 views)
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Re: [SuFantasma] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Cutting away doesn't seem like the smartest of ideas. If the jumper realized he got the wrong rig, there is
no way he could be sure about the status of the reserve in that rig ! However small the main canopy, the
main met the Square, Steerable and Stable requirements.

But he felt unsafe under it, and the reserve is slow compared...And in this case also larger.

I think he did the correct thing. And the proof is he is walking.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Aug 27, 2003, 7:42 AM
Post #12 of 128 (7019 views)
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Re: [SuFantasma] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

There's nothing wrong with using your reserve. When in doubt whip it out - that has been, and will always be my philosophy.

For some reason there has always been a stigma about using a reserve. As mentioned before the reserve will always fly slower than a main of the same size. MOST (not all) have reserves that are larger than the main. Those that don't should consider why it is, that their backup canopy is smaller than their main.

Doesn't make much sense to jump something smaller than you normally do in high stress situations.

Blue skies
Ian


lazyfrog

Aug 27, 2003, 7:48 AM
Post #13 of 128 (7008 views)
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Re: [Ron] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
But he felt unsafe under it, and the reserve is slow compared...And in this case also larger.

I think he did the correct thing. And the proof is he is walking.
some big hand came over him to protect...
it once happened that a guy I know orderd a complete rig in the US, received it, jumped it for a while, and then had to give it to his rigger to do some work on it. The big surprise the rigger had was that the reserve was NOT connected... Did the job... and on the very next jump he hit silver...
I am walking but sometimes had luck... Not ALWAYS did the correct thing. This guy is LUCKY... He emptied some of his bucket of luck, hope he is filling his bucket of experience

---


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Aug 27, 2003, 7:53 AM
Post #14 of 128 (6998 views)
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Re: [lazyfrog] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

so by that logic everytime you use your reserve you have to fill your bucket of luck?

I have a little more faith in my gear and rigger than that. No doubt they can fail, but if you're that scared of your reserve maybe this sport isn't for you?

When I started skydiving there was a memorial trophy for a guy called Andy Lodge (South Africa) at the club I started at. He went in trying to fix a horseshoe because he had always been scared to use his reserve. A senseless tragedy caused by fear of a reserve. Ironic and sad, that his fear of his final lifesaving device was what lead to his demise.

Blue skies
Ian


SuFantasma  (D 26267)

Aug 27, 2003, 8:04 AM
Post #15 of 128 (6980 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There's nothing wrong with using your reserve. When in doubt whip it out - that has been, and will always be my philosophy.

I most certainly agree Ian, there is nothing wrong with using [bold]your[\bold] reserve. I am of the belief that one should never question anyone who used a reserve, it's a personal decision that has many factors involved, including the perception of the situation.

I was addressing the uncertainties related to jumping a rig that you have no knowledge of (pressumably) and cutting away from a good canopy without knowing if the reserve will be there or not. I am not saying that there WASN'T a reserve on the rig, I am just saying that the status of the reserve may have not been known.


Blahr

Aug 27, 2003, 8:11 AM
Post #16 of 128 (6961 views)
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Re: [SuFantasma] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm 235 lbs out the door and not very experienced.

If I found myself under a perfectly good 97 sq ft HP canopy loaded at 2.4, I'd much rather take a chance on the more docile 7 cell reserve even if it wasnt much larger than the main.

I would deserve a serious ass kicking later for being a dumbass and grabbing the wrong rig.


(This post was edited by Blahr on Aug 27, 2003, 8:13 AM)


Ron

Aug 27, 2003, 8:28 AM
Post #17 of 128 (6931 views)
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Re: [lazyfrog] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
some big hand came over him to protect...

yeah he had two hands..HIS left and Right hands made him safe..Not God, Budda, Allah, a lucky green leprichan ect.

In reply to:
it once happened that a guy I know orderd a complete rig in the US, received it, jumped it for a while, and
then had to give it to his rigger to do some work on it. The big surprise the rigger had was that the reserve
was NOT connected... Did the job... and on the very next jump he hit silver...

Yeah, but its this guys fault for not inspecting his gear when he first got it.

In reply to:
This guy is LUCKY

Nope he is stupid for getting the wrong rig...Then he did exaclty what he was told...Can't land the main? Cut it away and pull the reserve.


lazyfrog

Aug 27, 2003, 8:29 AM
Post #18 of 128 (6927 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

But your guy Andy had a mal... the guy we are talking about had a flying canopy... faster than what he was used to I admit... much faster even... but not knowing the rig , he could have expected a second bad surprise...
But we are all happy he is alive and walks, and will not blame him for that.


narcimund  (C License)

Aug 27, 2003, 8:41 AM
Post #19 of 128 (6905 views)
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Re: [Ron] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think he did the correct thing. And the proof is he is walking.

Reasonable people can disagree. If the only qualification for "Did he do the right thing?" is "Did it work?" then we would have to say all sorts of very dangerous and silly things are perfectly correct if they don't happen to kill you.

"He played Russian Roulette and was the survivor."
"She dumped her entire life savings in the lottery and won a million bucks."
"He accidently put drano in the soup instead of chicken broth, but then assassins came to his house to kill him. They had a bowl of soup first and fell over dead before they could do the deed."

By the rule of "Success defines correct choices," we're committed to approving of all sorts of strange things. If our goal in this forum is to analyze problems for the future, it doesn't make sense to approve of choices which just HAPPENED to turn out well. Instead, we should look for choices which PREDICTABLY will turn out well.

I think a better way of thinking of it isn't, "Did he do the right thing?" but "Would it be the right thing to do this next time?" In this case you're not playing the emotionally charged game of second guessing a survivor. Instead you're thinking about the future, about the overall wisdom of methods.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Aug 27, 2003, 8:49 AM
Post #20 of 128 (6890 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

While this incident pushes the limit, it's very hard for me to recommend getting rid of a fully open and funtioning main to use your last chance to live. That's what your reserve is. I've been under a reserve total malfunction (it obviously cleared, rigger error), which is why I became a rigger 20 years ago. And I certainly advocate people using their reserve instead of trying to fix a problem. But this incident is as much about mind set and indiviual choice as what is right or wrong.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Aug 27, 2003, 8:49 AM
Post #21 of 128 (6890 views)
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Re: [narcimund] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

Think back to when you had 40 jumps. Then think of yourself under a 96 (ever jumped one?). If a 96 is ok for you then think of something so far beyond your abilities (the 46 project maybe?) that it would scare the crap out of you, then tell me you wouldn't cut it away.

It's easy for us to say he could have landed it now - most of the people posting have some measure of experience. Just try and think about perspective though, sometimes that's a hard thing to do the longer you've been in the sport but something we shouldn't ignore either.

I think it's pretty clear that all of us are glad he is ok. I also think it's clear that there is not necessarily a right or wrong answer, which leaves it up to the individual in the situation. In this case, I happen to think he did the same thing I would have done. Obviously some of us disagree but just try and keep that perspective I was referring to in mind.

Blue skies
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Aug 27, 2003, 8:52 AM)


Ron

Aug 27, 2003, 8:57 AM
Post #22 of 128 (6876 views)
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Re: [narcimund] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

We have a guy with 40 jumps under a Sub 100 canopy.

He was looking for a 170 Sabre and got a 96 Velocity.

A square to a Crossbraced ground hungry canopy.

Go put a jump on a 76 and tell me you would rather land it.

He did the correct thing...Now it may not be the only option, but he made a choice and did it fine.

So he did the right thing.

If he chose to land it, and he did it fine. then he did the right thing as well.

I would rather him chop it and land the nice safe 7 cell F111 reserve than risk hammering in under the Velocity.

Like I said go put a jump on a 76 and tell me you would rather land it. And you have 300 jumps of experience....I bet it still scares the shit out of you.

In reply to:
If our goal in this forum is to analyze problems for the future, it doesn't make sense to approve
of choices which just HAPPENED to turn out well. Instead, we should look for choices which
PREDICTABLY will turn out well.

I have more faith in the reserve opening than him landing the canopy.

Lets look at it this way...

I have been told that the chances of a reserve mal is like 1/1000. Which means we could have 1,000 40 jump wonders cutaway and only one might die.

If we put out 1,000 40 jump wonders with Velocity 96's (No extra instruction)....Which do you think will have the higher death rate?


(This post was edited by Ron on Aug 27, 2003, 9:06 AM)


WrongWay  (D 27371)

Aug 27, 2003, 9:13 AM
Post #23 of 128 (6857 views)
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Re: [Rdutch] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, since he's alright, now we can joke about it. Just watch, give it five years and this kid will be ruling the pro swooping circuit, saying "I've been doing this since I had 40 jumps!!" Wink J/K

Just imagine if he flew it how he was used to on his student staus: "Wait for it.....wait for it......(THUD!!!!).....Flare, flare, flare........." Crazy J/K

Okay, to get SERIOUS,
My $.02, this was a mistake that could have EASILY been avoided by simply doing a gear check. You would have assumed that in putting on the rig he would have thought, "oh shit, this feels really small and light" or "oh shit, this looks nothing like the rig i usually jump" or "oh shit, maybe i should ask what canopy is in this". If ya ask me, if this is ever repeated, the jumper needs a swift kick, and some MAJOR refreshers on safety, canopy control Wink, and gear.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Aug 27, 2003, 9:57 AM
Post #24 of 128 (6807 views)
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Re: [Ron] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

ROFL - the luck thread starts again. It isn't luck - it is reaction to a situation. Period.

LOLOLOLOLOL

Luck - go play bingo then!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 27, 2003, 10:21 AM
Post #25 of 128 (6779 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] One more case of Jumping the wrong rig. [In reply to] Can't Post

>First of all - wow - wtf, how the hell does that happen?

I had it happen to me quite a bit. (I didn't take the wrong rig, people would take mine.) Our problem was that we all had the same color rigs (staff rigs) and people would just grab the one on top of the pile. I considered adding another item to the checklist we gave to the students:

7. Ensure the name embroidered on your JM's rig is the same as the name you are calling him.

I even considered putting my Nova back in my staff rig; everyone was scared to death of that canopy, and I figured after a few people found themselves under it they'd check their gear more carefully.


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