Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Emergency procedures

 


metalslug  (B 2528)

Jun 27, 2003, 4:05 PM
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Emergency procedures Can't Post

 
I've been reading the thread on 'No reserve pull after cutaway' with some interest and have some related questions for a new thread.

As a student, my concern regarding emergency procedures was/is with regard to how much force it may take to pull the handles. (I've not experienced this for myself yet)
Does the required force vary between harnesses ?

Have there been recorded incidents of 'stuck' handles on modern skydiving gear ?
If so, What would cause this type of malfunction ?

How likely is a scenario whereby a panicked jumper (experiencing a mal) may rapidly pull both handles in the correct order.. but with insufficient force to trigger the cutaway.. resulting in a 2-out situation ?

My question applies to all makes and models of modern gear.. but I think my DZ student gear are mostly Naro harnesses.. in event that someone may have specific knowledge of PISA rigs.


fundgh  (C 34140)

Jun 27, 2003, 4:23 PM
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Find a DZ that does harness training with a hanging rig. This will help simulate pull forces. I have not done this, but they didn't have one at my DZ. I have pulled my reserve prior to repack and it felt good to try it, but it will be a lot different during a malfunction.


hookitt  (D License)

Jun 27, 2003, 4:29 PM
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My biggest suggestion is Practice like you mean it... Practice forcefully and definately.

Then ask your rigger if you can pull some handles on a rig being re-packed. Put the rig on and practice real time.

If you miss the cutaway, you learn real quick how to peel first.

Good luck


BMFin

Jun 27, 2003, 4:38 PM
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In reply to:
Find a DZ that does harness training with a hanging rig. This will help simulate pull forces. I have not done this, but they didn't have one at my DZ. I have pulled my reserve prior to repack and it felt good to try it, but it will be a lot different during a malfunction.

Im not sure what you mean by "hanging rig" , but if you mean those training harness systems, I would want to remind that they are not so close to the real thing. The velcro in those training harnesses wear out qickly and they become easy pretty quick. Also there is no pin to pull out when pulling the reserve handle. Just the handle.

Thats just my experience with those systems I was trained with. ( I think it was a wings training harness )


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 27, 2003, 4:39 PM
Post #5 of 20 (2202 views)
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Re: [metalslug] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

>Does the required force vary between harnesses ?

Yes, but must not exceed 22 lbs.

>Have there been recorded incidents of 'stuck' handles on modern skydiving gear ?
>If so, What would cause this type of malfunction ?

Yes. Common causes:
-Pebble stuck in reserve cable housing
-Cable tie or something on reserve handle to keep it in during transport
-Bent reserve pin
-Damaged reserve pin
-Misrouted RSL or ripcord cable

>How likely is a scenario whereby a panicked jumper (experiencing a
> mal) may rapidly pull both handles in the correct order.. but with
>insufficient force to trigger the cutaway.. resulting in a 2-out situation ?

Very uncommon in the 2-hand-per-handle procedure, somewhat more common in the 1-hand-per-handle procedure. If you do use a 1-hand-per-handle procedure, don't train "pull-pull", because you'll tend to do that even if your cutaway handle is stuck. Instead, train yourself to peel-pull-clear-peel-pull-clear or something similar.


andy2

Jun 27, 2003, 5:28 PM
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Re: [billvon] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

Whats the procedure if your reserve handle won't pull out? Reach around and pull the pin by hand, I guess, is there some reason as to why this wouldn't work though?


rgoper  (C 32349)

Jun 27, 2003, 5:39 PM
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Quote:
Whats the procedure if your reserve handle won't pull out?

this would be a rare, but not an impossible gear failure. i've actually thought about it, my plan is to grab the exposed cable by the grommet that runs through the metal reserve deployment handle leading to the reserve pin and pull it to release the pinned in spring loaded pilot chute on the reserve. i don't think anyone would have enough time to reach behind their back, open the reserve flap and effectively pull the reserve pin. that said, i wouldn't know for sure what i'd do, until the time comes, but at least i have a plan for a very unusaul situation. the only other remedy would be to utilize an RSL...or NOT! Wink


andy2

Jun 27, 2003, 6:03 PM
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Re: [rgoper] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

I just asked because I know the emergency procedure for a total on a BASE rig is to manually reach behind and tear open the shrivel flap. Skydiving you have a ton more time, maybe practicing reaching behind on the ground might be beneficial...


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 27, 2003, 6:38 PM
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Re: [andy2] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

The reserve pin is on the backpad of my rig. Reaching it would be impossible. I'll assume I don't have to worry about it though... if the RSL and cypres both fail, it's just not my day.

Dave


hookitt  (D License)

Jun 27, 2003, 6:38 PM
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Don't mix BASE emergency procedures with Skydiving. Besides, reaching around grabbing a shrivel flap would give you something to do until impact if you had the presence to actually try it. New shrivel flap velcro peels at about 12 to 14 pounds every time, route your stuff correctly.

US has mostly 3 to 600 foot objects. Take a couple seconds delay, toss the pilot chute, a couple seconds later should nothing actually happen .... should I continue?

In skydiving I've known people to reach and open the main manually or reach around grab the bridle and manually toss the bag. I'd call those extraordinary circumstances, and could have easily used up valuable altitude leaving no time to Activate the reserv.

There was an article in Skydiving and Parachutist a few years ago where a jumper Grabbed the reserve ripcord housing and shredded it to open his reserve because he missed his reserve handle. I don't recall all the details but I seem to recall he Thought he had the handle. Any one else remember this and could clarify?

Read billvons post again regarding the typical causes of not being able to pull the reserve.

<snip>
-Pebble stuck in reserve cable housing
-Cable tie or something on reserve handle to keep it in during transport
-Bent reserve pin
-Damaged reserve pin
-Misrouted RSL or ripcord cable


Proper gear checks to determine your equipment is in proper working condition is your best bet. Drill your emergency procedures several times before every jump, and Do-it-like-you-mean-it. Check all your handles before you leave the air craft. Thousands of jumps into my career I still do this.

Seems to be working so farWink

-


andy2

Jun 27, 2003, 6:46 PM
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Re: [hookitt] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
US has mostly 3 to 600 foot objects. Take a couple seconds delay, toss the pilot chute, a couple seconds later should nothing actually happen .... should I continue?

Point taken Unsure

Quote:
Proper gear checks to determine your equipment is in proper working condition is your best bet. Drill your emergency procedures several times before every jump, and Do-it-like-you-mean-it. Check all your handles before you leave the air craft. Thousands of jumps into my career I still do this.

I hope I am as non-complacent as you are at that many jumps. Well, thats wrong, I KNOW I will be as non-complacent, it would seriously piss me off to die because of a stupid pebble in my reserve cable housing. Mad


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jun 28, 2003, 2:35 AM
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Andy,
If you become complacent with any number of jumps, YOU WILL DIE! (shouting as loud as I can)
Sparky


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 28, 2003, 7:17 AM
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Re: [andy2] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whats the procedure if your reserve handle won't pull out? Reach around and pull the pin by hand, I guess, is there some reason as to why this wouldn't work though?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I doubt that most skydivers can touch their reserve pins.
Most rigs are too tight and most shoulders are too tight to reach the reserve pin.
Far wiser to do serious gear checks before boarding, look at handles while pulling, elbowing reserve container, etc.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 30, 2003, 10:58 AM
Post #14 of 20 (1980 views)
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Re: [andy2] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

>Whats the procedure if your reserve handle won't pull out?

Disconnect your RSL and pull on it. It will also deploy the reserve even if there's a pebble or something stuck in the ripcord channel.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jun 30, 2003, 1:23 PM
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Re: [BMFin] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Find a DZ that does harness training with a hanging rig. This will help simulate pull forces. I have not done this, but they didn't have one at my DZ. I have pulled my reserve prior to repack and it felt good to try it, but it will be a lot different during a malfunction.

Im not sure what you mean by "hanging rig" , but if you mean those training harness systems, I would want to remind that they are not so close to the real thing. The velcro in those training harnesses wear out qickly and they become easy pretty quick. Also there is no pin to pull out when pulling the reserve handle. Just the handle.

Thats just my experience with those systems I was trained with. ( I think it was a wings training harness )


Some DZs have a hanging harness that can be spun around too, to give you a little disorientation during the cutaway practice. Anyone thinking of getting a small elliptical should try to experience this.


bluefingers  (A 6218)

Jul 1, 2003, 12:04 AM
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Re: [kallend] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

I went up in the harness this last weekend, for the first time since my FJC (July 2001!!). It was great, and I took the opportunity to ask the DZO/CI a few questions, and when he was shaking and spinning me about in the harness yelling malfunction, I realised the importance of doing the drills as calmly as possible (try not to rush them), in the correct order, leaving nothing out.
While I was being spun about, and watching others in the harness, the handles were moving around, so therefore LOOK! for your handles. I havent had a mal yet, but I know I will have one - it might be my next jump, it might be in 500 jumps time. I do know that after going up in the harness on saturday, I feel better, and confident that I will perform COMPLETE reserve drills when the time comes. I'm going to try and get up in the harness more often.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jul 1, 2003, 2:18 AM
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Re: [bluefingers] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll be at Ramblers nest week and apparently they have a system where they suspend you from YOUR OWN rig, and the load you up with ppl pulling down on you and spinning you so that you can practice cutting away with a substantial load on your 3 rings.
I havn't tried it yet but will do next week >I'll post what it feels like and how easy/hard it is to do when I get back.


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Jul 1, 2003, 2:58 AM
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Re: [billvon] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

"Disconnect your RSL and pull on it. It will also deploy the reserve even if there's a pebble or something stuck in the ripcord channel."

As part of my 'preflight' check, I ensure my cable is free and running in the housing by 'tweaking' the slack from the pin end. Basically I stick my pinky under the cable next to the pin and give it a light wiggle while keeping an eye on the other end of the cable, the cable has a little slack in it to allow for harness flexing, so all I do is wiggle it until I see the little cable end ferrule/ball moving. Then I know the cable will be free. All you have to do is make sure you don't dislodge the pin. I also check my handle retaining velcro by pulling the handle free of the housing.
I do this at the start of the day's jumping and if I have had a tumble.
I also do this as part of a mandatory flight line check on others.


Klassen  (B 6214)

Jan 10, 2011, 6:41 PM
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Re: [billvon] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

I had RiggerRob over the other day to take my new rig for some work and he had me go through emergency procedure's actually pulling the handles. I think this is something everyone should try and do on a regular basis( repack). And the comment about peel, pull, throw is worth it's weight in gold compared to pull/pull. After doing the real thing I found that removing the handles from the Velcro top to bottom put a stress on the res handle as the wire turned. It seemed better to remove the handle from the bottom to the top(peel), then pull to arms length possibly throw. Having done the real thing really made me aware of what I will do when it happens in the air. And for sure I will always check the handles and clear movement of the res cord in gear check. And thanks for the RSL idea if ever needed. We who are new to the sport, and super stoked, learn alot from all of your posts. Greatly appriciated!!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 10, 2011, 7:12 PM
Post #20 of 20 (1516 views)
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Re: [billvon] Emergency procedures [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Whats the procedure if your reserve handle won't pull out?

Disconnect your RSL and pull on it. It will also deploy the reserve even if there's a pebble or something stuck in the ripcord channel.

I would advise that after disconnect, one should peel the RSL up towards and over the head (just as the normal direction of pull) instead of down towards the waist.,,peeling the velcro UP rather than trying to slide pile over hook.



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