Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015

 

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Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Jul 19, 2015, 8:03 AM
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CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 Can't Post

Saw on a competitor's Facebook page that there was a fatality in the third round of a CP meet.


Hellis

Jul 19, 2015, 1:23 PM
Post #2 of 39 (16753 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

Danish but lived and jumped in Sweden.
Not going to comment on what happened as I have only heard second and third hand information.
But all of the sources agree on him beeing almost in a vertical dive and hitting the water.


SVinRider  (E 1111)

Jul 19, 2015, 1:29 PM
Post #3 of 39 (16724 views)
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Re: [Hellis] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know who your sources are but they are incorrect.


(This post was edited by SVinRider on Jul 19, 2015, 1:30 PM)


Akegata  (A License)

Jul 19, 2015, 2:25 PM
Post #4 of 39 (16544 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

Official comment from the swedish parachute association: http://www.sff.se/...holm-fallskarmsklubb

Quick and sloppy translation:
One person dead in a landing accident at Stockholms Fallskärmsklubb.

The jumper who was hurt in a landing accident at Stockholms Fallskärmsklubb on Friday is confirmed deceased.

Stockholms Fallskärmsklubb organizes the Nordic Championship in Canopy Piloting this weekend. On the first jump on Friday one jumper was badly hurt in a water landing accident. The condition of the jumper was initally described as very serious and the jumper was taken to Uppsala university hospital on Friday afternoon where he was later confirmed deceased. The jumper is described as very experienced and belongs to Skånes Fallskärmsklubb.

- We are shocked by this event and our condolences go out to his family, friends, and members of Skånes Fallskärmsklubb. This is not only a tragedy for the family but also a huge sorrow for all of skydiving Sweden, says Peo Humla, chairman of Svenska Fallskärmsförbundet.

The Swedish Parachute Association has begun an investigation to investigate what may have contributed to the accident and SPA's national instructor Petter Alfsson-Thoor is on his way to Gryttjom to continue the investigation."


Hellis

Jul 20, 2015, 7:04 AM
Post #5 of 39 (15261 views)
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Re: [SVinRider] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

SVinRider wrote:
I don't know who your sources are but they are incorrect.

Ok.
So what happened?


jdpml  (D 18680)

Jul 20, 2015, 1:56 PM
Post #6 of 39 (14379 views)
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Post deleted by jdpml [In reply to]

 


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 20, 2015, 3:55 PM
Post #7 of 39 (14116 views)
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Re: [jdpml] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand that people who knew this jumper will be sensitive to questions, but knowing details can provide education and add to the safety of this discipline.

These accidents are caused by a wide variety of things so saying "what do you think happened" doesn't help.

Low turns, line breaks, changing techniques or the degrees of performance turns, flying a new wing, competing at a dramatically different altitude, and countless other things have contributed to accidents and when discussed intelligently people have learned a lot from them.

If and when someone with first-hand information is willing to post it, there will be many of us sincere dz.com'ers ready to learn from it.

Condolences to all and blue skies to this pilot.


(This post was edited by chuckakers on Jul 20, 2015, 5:23 PM)


Ins_Ane  (A License)

Jul 20, 2015, 4:21 PM
Post #8 of 39 (14053 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

A few more Google-translated links to news reports

https://translate.google.com/...e-dog-under-tavling/
https://translate.google.com/...ka%2F&edit-text=
https://translate.google.com/...it-text=&act=url

with some- but not much - more information...


jdpml  (D 18680)

Jul 20, 2015, 4:30 PM
Post #9 of 39 (14023 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

Chuck , you are correct.
I should delete prior post ,
My sensitivity is not bothered by the question .
I have filled in enough reports.
Just a waste of a life again.
If there is any education to come from this , and i'm sure there will be , could we pass it back to the people who do this on a regular basis.
Sick and tired of seeing this.
Yes my profile does have a name.
yes it does have a location.
And yes I am pissed off that someone so smart with good gear can fly into a pond and die.
Pilot error, let's see what we learn from this one.
Maybe the next one ?
Yes I do still skydive .


(This post was edited by jdpml on Jul 20, 2015, 4:50 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 20, 2015, 5:43 PM
Post #10 of 39 (13907 views)
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Re: [jdpml] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

jdpml wrote:
Chuck , you are correct.
I should delete prior post ,
My sensitivity is not bothered by the question .
I have filled in enough reports.
Just a waste of a life again.
If there is any education to come from this , and i'm sure there will be , could we pass it back to the people who do this on a regular basis.
Sick and tired of seeing this.
Yes my profile does have a name.
yes it does have a location.
And yes I am pissed off that someone so smart with good gear can fly into a pond and die.
Pilot error, let's see what we learn from this one.
Maybe the next one ?
Yes I do still skydive .

I have deleted your comments from my reply to match your post deletion.

On your comments - my son is a comp CP guy and a member of the US team so incidents like these touch home with me. I don't see this as a waste of life. Like all of us, CP guys and gals are chasing their dreams and like us they understand and accept the risks.

Stuff like this sucks and will never not suck, but I believe it is important to learn all we can and make that knowledge part of our collective think tank. I think those we so sorrowfully learn from would want that.

Any first hand facts and/or a complete factual report would be appreciated.


jdpml  (D 18680)

Jul 20, 2015, 6:11 PM
Post #11 of 39 (13837 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

We are on the same page , my first post was not useful in any way ,and is deleted.
Thanks for the time to contact me.
Paul


SVinRider  (E 1111)

Jul 20, 2015, 9:50 PM
Post #12 of 39 (13535 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll be brief. My perspective standing roughly 25 meters from the gates, waiting to get on load 2.

Jumper had at least 100 jumps on the canopy this year (the ones we did together at camps). Not sure how many as we did not have the same every day home dropzone. Jumper on a VC-79 @ 2.6-2.7, doing a left hand 630.

2-5 m/s downwind distance run. Jumper was first out on the first load, first pass, first round of the day.

Came in a little high and too tight. Did a minor left/right rocking turn, probably to get rid of excess altitude. Roll out was long, perhaps 4.5 seconds.

Didn't give any input to plane the dive out until a fraction of a second before impact. Impact roughly three meters in front of the gate.

What happened after that is irrelevant and I will not discuss it at all.

Seen him do this turn hundreds of times during training, he had always just accepted the zero if he was high or tight.

Conclusion: competition induced target fixation on the gates, caused by the desire to get a score. Something most competitive swoopers have been guilty of at some point, certainly the ones I know.

_


aphid  (D 535)

Jul 21, 2015, 7:20 AM
Post #13 of 39 (12923 views)
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Re: [SVinRider] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

SVinRider wrote:
Conclusion: competition induced target fixation on the gates, caused by the desire to get a score. Something most competitive swoopers have been guilty of at some point, certainly the ones I know.

I've witnessed similar decisions and the results myself.

Here's a thought for the CP Competition Committees: take a page from CF rules - in CF, each team is given one throw-away round without penalty.

If instituted, it could mitigate a competitors need to make the gates every jump at all cost.

Of course, this does not address recreational swooping accidents, unless we consider that competitors are in fact leading by example.

John


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 21, 2015, 7:41 AM
Post #14 of 39 (12860 views)
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Re: [SVinRider] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Seen him do this turn hundreds of times during training, he had always just accepted the zero if he was high or tight.

Unsure

Was it his 1st official competition? (for all I know he's done loads of comps.. Just don't know... But sometimes, competition can make someone change their decision parameters - not just in swooping but in general)


Akegata  (A License)

Jul 21, 2015, 2:17 PM
Post #15 of 39 (12300 views)
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Re: [SVinRider] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

SVinRider wrote:
Jumper was first out on the first load, first pass, first round of the day.

Did he do any practice jumps as the DZ before the competition?
Maybe it's an obvious question, but I have no experience with CP competitions.


SVinRider  (E 1111)

Jul 21, 2015, 10:53 PM
Post #16 of 39 (11797 views)
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Re: [Remster] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Was it his 1st official competition? (for all I know he's done loads of comps.. Just don't know... But sometimes, competition can make someone change their decision parameters - not just in swooping but in general)

No, he had a handful of competitions behind him, including bigger ones like Pink Open. I agree that competitions can alter behaviour. Sometimes we push more.

Quote:
Did he do any practice jumps as the DZ before the competition?
Maybe it's an obvious question, but I have no experience with CP competitions.

Yes, he had done practice jumps. We'd also done two rounds of speed the day before.

--


(This post was edited by SVinRider on Jul 21, 2015, 10:57 PM)


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Jul 22, 2015, 6:48 AM
Post #17 of 39 (11273 views)
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Re: [SVinRider] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

My hardest impact on the pond, ever, was exactly as the situation described in this incident. Ended with concussion, concerns of torn retina's, blowing visor and neptunes off, etc. That was on a VC79. Today's canopies (PI/Petra) are so much faster (I didn't see what he was jumping) that these kinds of things have worse results than ever before.

For my incident I was a little bit high, and tight on the gates, with a rock to lose altitude (minor). It's a very easy to find yourself in the position - made even more dangerous by the fact that you aren't "low" per say when you rollout of your turn so there's little to no sense of "danger". Inaccurate of course, just the perception.

Sad to hear of this incident, but totally understand how it played out having done the exact same thing myself before. I remember the jumper from competitions, not an unsafe pilot by any means.

BSBD
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Jul 22, 2015, 6:49 AM)


raymod2  (D 25630)

Jul 22, 2015, 9:12 AM
Post #18 of 39 (10925 views)
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Re: [SVinRider] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

Was the water drag rule in effect?


Akegata  (A License)

Jul 22, 2015, 10:21 AM
Post #19 of 39 (10757 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

ianmdrennan wrote:
That was on a VC79. Today's canopies (PI/Petra) are so much faster (I didn't see what he was jumping)
According to SVinRider, who certainly seems credible, this jumper also had a VC 79.


SVinRider  (E 1111)

Jul 22, 2015, 10:31 AM
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Re: [raymod2] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

raymod2 wrote:
Was the water drag rule in effect?

Yes, standard distance rules, drag water before/through gate.


raymod2  (D 25630)

Jul 22, 2015, 12:05 PM
Post #21 of 39 (10515 views)
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Re: [SVinRider] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

SVinRider wrote:
raymod2 wrote:
Was the water drag rule in effect?

Yes, standard distance rules, drag water before/through gate.

There was a lot of controversy regarding the water drag rule when it was adopted and many of us considered it unwise with respect to safety. With 5 foot gates the margin for error is already quite small. Requiring the pilot to drag water removes the margin for error almost completely.

In this incident it sounds like the pilot was trying very hard to touch water (high and tight on the gate during a downwind run yet still impacted 3 meters before the gate).


BMFin

Jul 22, 2015, 2:21 PM
Post #22 of 39 (10248 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

It was said this happened on a course set downwind. For many years I have taken notice how many of the swooping accidents happen in courses set up downwind.

This has lead me to assume there are many swoopers who perhaps don’t fully realize the difference in the plane out picture when rolling out downwind. In fact I know that 2009 there were many accomplished swoopers with thousands of jumps, who were totally unaware of this fact. (see this post and the discussion that followed)

Now Im not a competitive swooper and I dont really know how much the theoretical discussion around this subject has evolved after 2009. Perhaps now in 2015 this is notorious knowledge? I would definetly hope so at least.

Also I have no idea how much people practice downwind before entering into a competition. I can only imagine it would be very risky if someone did his practice runs in zero - headwind conditions, and was suddenly put in a spot where he had to compete in downwind conditions.

Perhaps some one with more knowledge on competitive swooping can answer me:

1)Generally speaking how often (in rough percentages) competition courses are set downwind and what percentage of swoopers practice downwind?

2)Is the difference in plane out picture when rolling out down wind something that is nowadays widely known and talked about?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Jul 22, 2015, 7:38 PM
Post #23 of 39 (9894 views)
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Re: [raymod2] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

Based on my observations over the years, and the details provided on this accident, I'd wager the impact would have happened under the old rules too.

It's all too similar to that situation I found myself in years ago, way before the water drag was even a factor.

Ian


raymod2  (D 25630)

Jul 23, 2015, 9:02 AM
Post #24 of 39 (9300 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

Ian, maybe so, but you walked away from your incident.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 24, 2015, 6:10 AM
Post #25 of 39 (8597 views)
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Re: [raymod2] CP Fatality - Gryttjom, Sweden - 18th July 2015 [In reply to] Can't Post

raymod2 wrote:
SVinRider wrote:
raymod2 wrote:
Was the water drag rule in effect?

Yes, standard distance rules, drag water before/through gate.

There was a lot of controversy regarding the water drag rule when it was adopted and many of us considered it unwise with respect to safety. With 5 foot gates the margin for error is already quite small. Requiring the pilot to drag water removes the margin for error almost completely.

In this incident it sounds like the pilot was trying very hard to touch water (high and tight on the gate during a downwind run yet still impacted 3 meters before the gate).

Just a casual observer and fan of the discipline speaking here, but it seems to me that eliminating the water drag rule but keeping the "stay below the pylons" rule would maintain the safety of not allowing early pop ups but get rid of the risk of reducing the entry gate margin of error.

Thoughts?


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