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Rigging projects for a new rigger

 


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 3, 2014, 2:36 PM
Post #1 of 22 (3881 views)
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Rigging projects for a new rigger Can't Post

Ok, so this is more just to see people's point of views on the subject...
I have a feeling it will be mostly negative but hey, Why not.

Yes I understand I'm a "test jumper" now and I'm fine with that. I pack my own reserve and have a pretty good grasp of what's going on. (Or so I think) I built dbag , bridle and pilot chute assembly from scratch and it has served me well for the last 100 jumps and is still looking great. Yes it's collapsible. I was in need of a new pilot chute and was having deployment problems. New assembly and voila, fixed. So I have some construction and design experience. I'm not a licensed rigger, yet. I have a few more repacks and a test to do.

Here's where I expect the most flak... I fly a Safire 2 @1.35. I am doing this simply because... Why not? I have the time and materials and finances to play and experiment. I regularly perform 270 and 360 landings and feel I have a very good grasp on how my canopy handles flies and lands. Change one thing at a time right? I've not stood up one out of the last 100 landings on this canopy. Not an exaggeration. I decided to try a hook downwind in 15mph wind and couldn't run it out... Still pissed about the stains in my mudflaps.

Ok so the question is this, does anybody have any experience or ever heard of anyone putting a pocket on a removable slider? The reason I ask is this. I made one. I jumped it. It works great for hop and pops, but it's a little brisk at terminal. One of the snivel, Pop! It sits me up, starts to snivel, then open. I am my only packer, and like to think I'm consistent. I had the same opening 3 times Ina row just to make sure it wasn't a rouge opening. It's pink because that's the only neon color I had laying around and it's motivation to get it off and hide it. Can't let anyone see me with a pink slider!
From my observations, I think the reason is this: the line groups are spread out while the slider is the same size. So it allows more air to hit the underside of the canopy, and spread it out, lessening the effectiveness of the slider. I could make a larger slider, which I may anyways, but that will even further exaggerate the lack of reefing and exponentially increase the snatch force... So my thought is if I can add drag without spreading the lines that would be ideal. It's just a removable slider at the moment with no solid plans to make it full rds. I've also thought about a domed slider... I'm using the lookma rds rings. Very nice and highly polished. Very pleased with those. Almost ridiculously polished. Maybe they're too slippery on the lines! Lol
Let the bashing begin! Advice or comments also welcome!
Attachments: image.jpg (957 KB)
  image.jpg (999 KB)


theonlyski  (D License)

Feb 3, 2014, 2:58 PM
Post #2 of 22 (3803 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

That looks pretty good for an inexperienced riglet! Some things that I'd probably do just a hair differently but I don't see any glaring issues with how you did it.

Does this slider line up grommet to grommet with the old slider (with tension applied)?

Normally putting a pocket on it is a 'when all else fails' action. It's not terribly difficult to do, and I think if you managed to build that, it would be a fairly simple task to sew one on... the hard part is figuring out what size to make it!

I've never seen or heard of anyone putting a pocket on a removable slider, but the process should be similar. What exactly are you getting hung up on?


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 3, 2014, 7:12 PM
Post #3 of 22 (3631 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

             No the grommets do not line up. The sliders are exactly the same dimensions however, minus the cut in corners. The rings sit just outside of the corners. Theres about an inch diagonally between the inside of the outer corner of the grommet and the rings when attached. So its generating very close to the original drag but the lines are allowed to be 1" wider on all corners, letting the canopy spread more prior to inflation.

That's the thing, I've never heard of anyone putting a pocket on a removable slider... Got any idea whether to try it on the front or back or both? I'm leaning towards front thinking it will block/stir the air going in the nose. Then i think well its usually the tail that catches the most air at first and spreads the hardest, so maybe in the back... Maybe both...

I'm also thinking making it smaller now since then I can have all the line groups at the same width as stock and produce the extra drag with pockets or a dome... hmmm

Really, I guess I'm just thinking aloud or type-thinking or yeah something like that and seeing if anyone has any input... Thanks!


theonlyski  (D License)

Feb 3, 2014, 7:51 PM
Post #4 of 22 (3601 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd put it on the front. I don't think I've ever seen a slider with a pocket anywhere other than the front.

Letting the canopy get even an inch chord and/or span would be enough to impact the openings. Sometimes it's softer, sometimes it's not.

I have a Safire2 169 that I'm on my 3rd slider to get the openings I want. Works great and no need for a pocket.

If you're just messing around, put a pocket on the front and start large (open high) and work your way down to make it open the way you want by sewing the pocket smaller and smaller. It's easier to go smaller than to add fabric after the initial pocket is installed.

Good luck!


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Feb 4, 2014, 11:20 AM
Post #5 of 22 (3377 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Alex,

Judging from the photos, your workmanship is quite good.

I would suggest to contact Gary Peek ( peek here on dz.com ) and communicate with him. He has done a fair amount of research on what causes hard openings and the effect slider size(s) have on them.

IIRC he says to increase the front-back dimension to slow things down.

JerryBaumchen

PS) Gary Peek
peek@pcprg.com
3201 Highgate Lane
St. Charles, MO 63301
(636) 946-5272


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 4, 2014, 12:34 PM
Post #6 of 22 (3309 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you, I messaged him.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 4, 2014, 12:58 PM
Post #7 of 22 (3283 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

JerryBaumchen wrote:
Hi Alex,

Judging from the photos, your workmanship is quite good.

I would suggest to contact Gary Peek ( peek here on dz.com ) and communicate with him. He has done a fair amount of research on what causes hard openings and the effect slider size(s) have on them.

IIRC he says to increase the front-back dimension to slow things down.

JerryBaumchen

PS) Gary Peek
peek@pcprg.com
3201 Highgate Lane
St. Charles, MO 63301
(636) 946-5272

...................................................................................

Yes, increasing the front-to-rear dimension adds fabric (drag) area without affecting reefing (friction on suspension lines)
You can increase the front-to-rear dimension (up to the maximum distance between the B and C lines) before you affect the reefing affect on the suspension lines.


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 4, 2014, 5:26 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok great, yeah that makes perfect sense... I'll take measurements and get started on it and post it when it's done!

Thanks!


FLJB  (D 30113)

Feb 5, 2014, 4:32 PM
Post #9 of 22 (2994 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

Alexg:

I made a removable slider for my Safire II 149 a couple of years ago... jumped it about 20 times at terminal and it was soft as butter....

Yours is excellent work. I will dig it out and take some pictures if you want for reference. I used a well known manufacturers rings that are more square than yours and Lolon release cables but other than that it is very similar.

My removable was 1/4 inch larger than stock all the way around once sewn (I figured slower was better than faster) and the crease of the corner fold on the removable bisected the grommets on the original. This equated to almost 3" of total extra span and chord distance from the original slider and it worked almost too well so keep that in mind. ( 1&1/2" each side).

Good Luck in your adventures.


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 6, 2014, 1:44 PM
Post #10 of 22 (2846 views)
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Re: [FLJB] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

A picture would be awesome if it's not too much trouble.

Then this slider should snivel forever.... Hmm. I'm gonna try it and see... I wanna test a few diff releases and such so Ill let you know how this one works... Halfway done.... Then waiting on more fabric!


FLJB  (D 30113)

Feb 6, 2014, 10:26 PM
Post #11 of 22 (2752 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

Alex:

pics attached. sorry, I am not a professional photographer, but you can get an idea of the size difference.

remember, safires are known for soft openings, so don't go too big or it could fail to open. I am a rigger, but not a professional designer and made my removable for the sense of accomplishment and novelty. I would never sell mine or let anyone else jump it since it is a one of a kind item like any other handmade item. besides there are various people who can make professional ones for a very fair price nowadays.
Attachments: removable 1.jpg (633 KB)
  removable 2.jpg (570 KB)
  removable 5.jpg (711 KB)
  removable 5.jpg (711 KB)


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 7, 2014, 7:59 PM
Post #12 of 22 (2588 views)
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Re: [FLJB] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you. It looks almost the same size as stock... That was for a 149? My wife has a Safire 2 139 and the slider is almost exactly the same size. I just quickly held them up... No real measurement.

I'm sure I've spent more on just materials than I would have just ordering one. Not to mention the time involved testing and building releases and laying out a new template and figuring it out as I go. It's just simply interesting and I like tinkering with and building things simply for he satisfaction of standing back and being able to say, "yeah, I made that from scratch." I don't know if I'd let someone jump my rig... Depends in the persons guess... Definitely wouldn't be a relatively new jumper.

From the couple jumps I did with the slider, it's so nice once it's off, I don't think I could ever have a normal slider now. The main perk I noticed other than the head room, was the way everything loosened up. The harness is far more sensitive and I feel like I can feel the wing more directly, like I took the filter off. .... Or maybe I'm just crazy.


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Feb 7, 2014, 10:30 PM
Post #13 of 22 (2565 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

Alexg3265 wrote:
I'm sure I've spent more on just materials than I would have just ordering one. Not to mention the time involved testing and building releases and laying out a new template and figuring it out as I go. It's just simply interesting and I like tinkering with and building things simply for he satisfaction of standing back and being able to say, "yeah, I made that from scratch."
Yeah, there are a few of us like that.

Alexg3265 wrote:
The main perk I noticed other than the head room, was the way everything loosened up. The harness is far more sensitive and I feel like I can feel the wing more directly, like I took the filter off. .... Or maybe I'm just crazy.
No, that's true, removable sliders do a lot for canopy flight. You're not crazy in that sense.Laugh


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 8, 2014, 8:24 AM
Post #14 of 22 (2497 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok so here's what I'll be testing tomorrow... I built a 26x29.5 slider with a central release and added back and front pockets to the existing one. I'll bring a seam ripper and take off the rear pocket if it's too slow...
The rings line up with stock with the 29.5 width, so maybe that'll help! I'll let you know how they go.
Attachments: image.jpg (571 KB)
  image.jpg (596 KB)
  image.jpg (610 KB)


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 9, 2014, 7:36 PM
Post #15 of 22 (2319 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's video of some openings from today...

http://youtu.be/1dzPLCokZEs

And

http://youtu.be/1dzPLCokZEs

This is jumps 2 and 3 that I did today with the pocketed slider. Works almost too well. I didn't try the bigger one. Don't have video from the first. The sexy lady is my wife. I'm happy with it and may keep the dimensions almost the same and replicate the pockets since I have neon orange now! Yay! Enjoy.


theonlyski  (D License)

Feb 10, 2014, 5:26 AM
Post #16 of 22 (2213 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

I still think you'd be better off building a slider that doesn't need the pockets, but to each his own!


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 10, 2014, 12:01 PM
Post #17 of 22 (2108 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

I actually ran into someone with a safire 149 with a removable slider on it and compared it to the larger one I made and it was about 3" shorter front to back... I think I'll use those measurements and try an orange one that size. Start from the beginning and hop and pop it then more to terminal and hopefully it's all good. If not I'll try different sizes... I'm happy with the openings on the existing one and I know a pocket is a fix for flawed design, but damn they work well at increasing drag without sacrificing reefing. The flaps on the jvx I guess would be kind of similar in concept.

I'm going to stick to the plan of making a domed one and a flat one at 29.5x23 and testing those.


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 15, 2014, 8:44 AM
Post #18 of 22 (1866 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

Larger and skinnier new one to test tomorrow.
Attachments: image.jpg (549 KB)
  image.jpg (628 KB)


Cambalectri

Feb 15, 2014, 3:34 PM
Post #19 of 22 (1799 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

Looking forward to your results and a few more images,
especially your new slider attached to your canopy...


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 20, 2014, 8:05 PM
Post #20 of 22 (1585 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

New one worked well, but it still snivelled 1000ft and then surged open each time. I've got some videos and I'll get around to posting them. I put 7 jumps between Sunday and today on it and I'm still not entirely happy with it. I think I can stick with flat construction at least and I'm shaving another 2" off this one and will be testing Sunday.
Attachments: image.jpg (653 KB)


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Feb 24, 2014, 8:00 PM
Post #21 of 22 (1364 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Rigging projects for a new rigger [In reply to] Can't Post

http://youtu.be/nhspLmjtHIY

here are a few of the openings from 3 different sliders.
the one that is only 2" bigger than the stock slider had 1 openings that was decent and then 2 that looked like the video. One was on a 10 second...ish delay with no camera and was pretty much the same as the last part of the video.

So i think i found the size that works... but i still think the openings from the stock size with pockets look better... I'm going to try a few things. Also i did with the help of Frank from Lookma Paraphernalia (who has been very helpful and informative through this whole experiment) I realized i should have been putting the tape on the top of the slider vs the bottom where i was putting it. As soon as he asked me why i was putting the tape on the bottom and loading just the seams it all made sense. So next is to make it properly.


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Mar 10, 2014, 9:51 AM
Post #22 of 22 (1051 views)
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http://youtu.be/vFzUCBVRdIQ

Some more recent tests... I think I've found one that works well.. All the openings have been 5-900ft and smooth... Responds well to trash packs as well... Sloppy opening but acceptable. The latest one I made has the rings pulled in from the edge about 1.5cm. I went back to a double pull release which seems to allow the fabric to bow and cup the air better. The cross in the center with the single release looks like it's splitting the air instead of catching it... Probably a manufacturing defect. Lol stupid shrinkage! Anyways this latest one is flat and 43 sq inches larger than the stock size and works well... I'll continue to use this for a whole and see how it hold up.

Blue skies!



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