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Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers

 

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bwg  (D 11324)

Jan 14, 2014, 12:33 AM
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Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers Can't Post

Is anyone operating a Cessna 182 with FAA field approval to carry the pilot plus 5 skydivers?


Blis  (A License)

Jan 14, 2014, 12:56 AM
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Re: [bwg] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

bwg wrote:
Is anyone operating a Cessna 182 with FAA field approval to carry the pilot plus 5 skydivers?

No idea about FAA approvals but that is how we run 182 cessnas here in europe (well, in finland atleast), have to say that it's rather tight fight especially if there are bigger guys on the load...


tristansdad  (C 39285)

Jan 14, 2014, 4:50 AM
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Re: [bwg] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

You need FAA approval for that?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 14, 2014, 6:06 AM
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Re: [bwg] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

So what's stopping you now?

If some inspector says the aircraft was only certified for 4 seats and thus 4 occupants, then you'd be stuck at 3 skydivers, so that may not be the issue.

Around where I am, I'm used to often having 5 jumpers in a 182, but those are in widebody 182's that provide sufficient space. Whatever works according to the W&B is allowed, and manifest keeps records of the weight for every load. It only works where the jumpers are below average weight overall. But that's for Transport Canada, not FAA in the States.


Krip  (Student)

Jan 14, 2014, 6:25 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PC

My first 500 jumps back in the day were out of 180/182,s

No turbine baby here, but I have to ask

how high are you going
what's your climb rate

We were happy to get 400 FPM and exited at 7.5k

The little people these days smell very nice.Cool

R


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jan 14, 2014, 6:47 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So what's stopping you now?

If some inspector says the aircraft was only certified for 4 seats and thus 4 occupants, then you'd be stuck at 3 skydivers, so that may not be the issue.

A standard cessna only came with 4 seat belts.

To add more requires a field approval.Also it depends on the STC with the door removal/mod/skydiving configuration as to how many jumpers are listed on the approval.
There are a few different STCs out there;all with different data.

Lastly, it could be a weight and balance issue even if the STC allows 5 jumpers.

MEL


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 14, 2014, 7:07 AM
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Re: [masterrigger1] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

I had always wondered about the legality of some of the seatbelt installations. Indeed, all belts on the floor are non-standard to begin with, so you've clarified that the issue might be that approvals for 3, 4, or 5 sets of floor belts are out there, but the OP doesn't happen to have one in-hand for 5.

Interesting about the door STCs. A little odd, because having a well engineered door is completely unrelated to the number of jumpers inside.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Jan 14, 2014, 7:08 AM)


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 14, 2014, 7:19 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

This is one of my favorite topics. Smile
There is a difference between economics, the rules, and what is safe. There is a better way and jamming an aircraft to capacity and pushing the W/B to the edge is pushing things as compared with a little margin in the event something happens. High wing Cessna's worldwide, for a number of debatable reasons, continue to lead the incident list. Pilots with little experience in the flight conditions that lead to these same incidents lead the way and their egos continue to take the unwary innocent's that believe their pilot is the best. To the OP original question, No I personally don't know anyone currently operating under that paper STD. If you do a search the company that was offering that mod was posted here somewhere, give them a call?
C

Just something to consider.


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jan 14, 2014, 7:23 AM)


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jan 14, 2014, 7:53 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

USPA has the STC for the seatbelt mod for 182's. Most door mods are done on a 337.


jonstark  (D 8298)

Jan 14, 2014, 8:11 AM
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

DBCOOPER wrote:
USPA has the STC for the seatbelt mod for 182's. Most door mods are done on a 337.

The USPA STC allows for only four seat belt locations and is for early serial number Cessnas.

When going for field approval I would heartily recommend the Hooker Harness Systems single belt harness restraints. Simple and effective when used properly.

jon


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 14, 2014, 8:06 PM
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Re: [jonstark] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

jonstark wrote:
DBCOOPER wrote:
USPA has the STC for the seatbelt mod for 182's. Most door mods are done on a 337.

The USPA STC allows for only four seat belt locations and is for early serial number Cessnas.

When going for field approval I would heartily recommend the Hooker Harness Systems single belt harness restraints. Simple and effective when used properly.

jon

.................................................................................

Agreed!
Jack Hooker is the man!

However, if you are operating in a country - where civil aviation authorities do not recognize Hooker's certification - may I recommend an alternate way of anchoring tandem students.?
Hook tandem students' side straps to cargo rings, or seat-belt fittings. If none of the seat-belt fittings will accept a Quick-Ejector Snap, then slip on a Maillon Rapide #6 connector link. Maillon Rapide #6 is the most popular size link for tandem mains.

This "re-neck engineer" fix may not satisfy government paperwork requirements, but it will reduce the size of your students' flail-arc and you will waste less time recovering from injuries.


grue  (D License)

Jan 14, 2014, 8:12 PM
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Re: [bwg] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

bwg wrote:
Is anyone operating a Cessna 182 with FAA field approval to carry the pilot plus 5 skydivers?

I've heard of 5 in a 182 and 6 in a 206 here in Australia, to both of which I say "fuck that".

I "grew up" at a Cessna DZ and 4 in our 182 and 5 in our 206 seemed plenty tight and slow.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jan 14, 2014, 10:16 PM
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Re: [grue] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

We routinely carry 23 jumpers in Twin Otters, which I think only fly maybe 16 people in passenger service. Similar ratios with Caravans. 5 jumpers in a 182 . . . well, if it's with weight and balance and everyone has a seatbelt. That's MHO, but the FAA might see things differently.

I'm a spoiled turbine brat these days. I haven't jumped a 182 in 2 years. Laugh


dzswoop717  (D 9277)

Jan 15, 2014, 5:57 AM
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Re: [bwg] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

When I worked for Paul Fayard back in the day. He built the ultimate 182 jump ship. IO-550 300hp engine, Roll up lexan door, cargo liner on the interior. it was a wide body and he only ever flew it with 4 jumpers. If there was a way to have the extra jumper in there he would have done it. The plane could have easily carried the extra load and the wide body can accomodate another body. I think the issue was useful load and it was maxed out with 4 jumpers and a pilot. Wing tip extensions would have given him more useful load and possibly the ability to carry 5 jumpers . But I can't say for sure.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 15, 2014, 6:25 AM
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Re: [bwg] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

my home DZ flies our Supercessna (io550, wing extensions) with paperwork and belts for 5 jumpers, but we haven't actually flown a load with 5 for a couple of years. It's incredibly tight and if you we ever lost the engine it could be a disaster.
There is paperwork for doing it, but just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be.


Elisha  (D 31656)

Jan 15, 2014, 9:42 AM
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Re: [grue] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

grue wrote:
bwg wrote:
Is anyone operating a Cessna 182 with FAA field approval to carry the pilot plus 5 skydivers?

I've heard of 5 in a 182 and 6 in a 206 here in Australia, to both of which I say "fuck that".

I "grew up" at a Cessna DZ and 4 in our 182 and 5 in our 206 seemed plenty tight and slow.

Dude, you're a big boy - not a 100 lb Asian female. Of course you'd say f*ck that!

I've been in several loads of a Turbo 206 w/ 7 that was still getting 600 ft / min, but that place has been gone for a few years now.


bwg  (D 11324)

Jan 15, 2014, 7:26 PM
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Re: [bwg] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

So apparently there are a few C-182's out there with the authorization and seat belt installations to legally carry 5 skydivers... I would like to obtain a copy of such an approval to use as a template. If you are willing to share technical information, please PM me. Thank you...


grue  (D License)

Jan 15, 2014, 7:48 PM
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Re: [Elisha] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

Elisha wrote:
grue wrote:
bwg wrote:
Is anyone operating a Cessna 182 with FAA field approval to carry the pilot plus 5 skydivers?

I've heard of 5 in a 182 and 6 in a 206 here in Australia, to both of which I say "fuck that".

I "grew up" at a Cessna DZ and 4 in our 182 and 5 in our 206 seemed plenty tight and slow.

Dude, you're a big boy - not a 100 lb Asian female. Of course you'd say f*ck that!

I've been in several loads of a Turbo 206 w/ 7 that was still getting 600 ft / min, but that place has been gone for a few years now.

ha! Fair call.

The 182 at the DZ I sometimes hit up can push 800fpm, which amazes me.


DrDom  (Student)

Jan 18, 2014, 6:44 AM
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Re: [grue] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

Physics is such a cruel bitch...
More people = more uncomfortable = more time to altitude

Nothing like your legs being asleep as you climb out ;)


Krip  (Student)

Jan 22, 2014, 6:26 AM
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Re: [DrDom] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

DrDom wrote:
Physics is such a cruel bitch...
More people = more uncomfortable = more time to altitude

Nothing like your legs being asleep as you climb out ;)

Hi DrDom

No disrespect intended

But if the airplane is packed like a sardine can so the dzo can maximize his operating efficency and profit.

The dzo will continue to do it as long as jumpers are willing to accept substandard conditions.

With all respect stop your whining or go to a different dz.

Enjoy your next flight, and the next, and your next, and so on.

Ever walk in the rain without a umbrella and whine because your getting wet?

R.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Jan 22, 2014, 6:29 AM
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Re: [DrDom] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

We did it regularly in the late 1970's. Conventional gear (i.e. front-mounted reserves). Bigger rigs even when they were piggy backs. It meant having one more person in freefall to play with.

Quitcher bitchin' Tongue

Wendy P.


(This post was edited by wmw999 on Jan 22, 2014, 6:29 AM)


DougH  (D License)

Jan 22, 2014, 9:08 AM
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Re: [bwg] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like a great idea on a cool spring day, with a nice running engine.

What about with two (fat) tandem pairs, one fun jumper that needs to lay off the beer truck when he travels to boogies, a hot august day, and a newly blown cylinder on the engine just after take off?


bwg  (D 11324)

Jan 24, 2014, 11:31 AM
Post #23 of 49 (4121 views)
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Re: [bwg] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that flying with 5 skydivers would not be comfortable, safe, or legal in many of the low gross weight, under-powered Cessna 182's out there. However, adding a 5th skydiver to the load in a 300 HP wide-body C-182 with max gross weight of 3100 lbs can be accomplished within legal weight and balance limitations depending upon jumper weight, fuel load, density altitude, etc.

For a DZO, the option to fly with a fifth jumper can help with the bottom line. However, if the load has two heavy tandems... fly without the fifth. If the load is a ladies' 4-way and fuel is light... then adding a camera flyer might be just fine. On a low-ceiling day or with a student load going to 3500'... five jumpers might work depending, of course, on weights and environmental conditions (and any "crunch" factor would only last about 5 minutes... until the first jumper is away).

Manifest and the pilot would have to consider limitations of the aircraft for each load. From what I hear, there are numerous drop zones that operate C-182's with 5 + pilot. I am trying to find an operator with legal paperwork for that extra seat belt who is willing to share. Thanks!


DrDom  (Student)

Jan 25, 2014, 6:24 AM
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Re: [Krip] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

Krip wrote:
DrDom wrote:
Physics is such a cruel bitch...
More people = more uncomfortable = more time to altitude

Nothing like your legs being asleep as you climb out ;)

Hi DrDom

No disrespect intended

But if the airplane is packed like a sardine can so the dzo can maximize his operating efficency and profit.

The dzo will continue to do it as long as jumpers are willing to accept substandard conditions.

With all respect stop your whining or go to a different dz.

Enjoy your next flight, and the next, and your next, and so on.

Ever walk in the rain without a umbrella and whine because your getting wet?

R.

I love how one can start a paragraph with "no disrespect" but then have a quite disresepctful tone.
I was only pointing out that physics can be a bitch.
My DZ is mostly Otter based, its a rare treat to jump a C182 and admittedly I really LIKE jumping a cessna (ok, I LIKE standing on the step with my face to the wind and looking over at a smiling pilot with a thumbs up..).

so, I'm not complaining, just pointing out how much our physical laws work against us in the most inconvenient ways.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 26, 2014, 2:53 PM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Cessna 182 - 5 Skydivers [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnMitchell wrote:
We routinely carry 23 jumpers in Twin Otters, which I think only fly maybe 16 people in passenger service. Similar ratios with Caravans. 5 jumpers in a 182 . . . well, if it's with weight and balance and everyone has a seatbelt. That's MHO, but the FAA might see things differently.

I'm a spoiled turbine brat these days. I haven't jumped a 182 in 2 years. Laugh

..................................................................................

Most Twin Otters - on scheduled passenger flights - rarely fly with more than 19 passengers. That is because you need a stewardess if you carry 20 passengers. Something about emergency exits ...


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