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AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet

 

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justinbaker27  (B 40015)

Nov 18, 2013, 7:20 PM
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AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet Can't Post

Ok guys & gals I have a question. I'm new to skydiving and so far I have done 2 tandems and 1 AFF jump. After my 2 tandems I decided I was going to need a full face helmet to continue in this sport. Here is my reasoning: I am pretty much always stuffed up and on each of my jumps my goggles get covered in snot. I was told a full face helmet would fix this. So I purchased a cookie G3 and have spent almost 2 hours in the wind tunnel and it works great, I don't have the air rushing up my nose or snot flying all over the place. Anyways with that being said when I bought the helmet in my home state I was told by my instructor I could use it there for my training as long as I kept a clear lense so he could SE my eyes and I could see the hand signals. It wouldn't be a problem. Anyways the weather got bad and I was able to start my AFF training there so I move to florida, I can't find one drop zone that will let me use a full face helmet as a student? I have heard the reasoning and it doesn't make sense. Maybe someone can explain it to me. First off let me give you my reasoning and Rebuttals why it would be better.
1. If air isn't blasting in my face at 120mph you think a person could concentrate better.
2. It's nowhere that I can find in the uspa rule book that you can't wear a full face helmet as a student.
3. I was in the military, have common sense and take instructions well, this was noted by my instructors in my logbook for all 3 jumps. Good exit,arch,chin up, response to hand signals, altitude awareness.
4. It doesn't seem very effective to not be able to see well because your goggles are covered with snot.
Anyways those are just my basic reasons on why I "think" I should be able to. However I a brand new and smart enough to know I don't know anything. So can anyone please tell me why this is a good or bad idea for a student to wear a full face cookie g3 helmet


mattjw916  (D License)

Nov 18, 2013, 7:39 PM
Post #2 of 33 (4591 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

mental gymnastics aside unless the instructor(s) you are jumping with will let you do it, it doesn't really matter

so you get some snot on your goggles and look like a dork in a pro-tec... suck it up buttercup Tongue

once you get your A you can wear your G3 like the cool kids on youtube

go fly in the tunnel in an open-face and get used to it


justinbaker27  (B 40015)

Nov 18, 2013, 7:51 PM
Post #3 of 33 (4574 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

You got me all wrong, I don't care how it looks, I care about being able to see with my goggles on. Your right and I did talk a lot but the question is simple. Why should I be able to wear one? Or not be able to wear one?


chemist  (A License)

Nov 18, 2013, 7:57 PM
Post #4 of 33 (4558 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

I had similar problems as you, my instructor told me I have two lungs full of air to work with when I leave the plane. He told me this because I told him I couldn't breathe in free fall at first, so it was ok if I didn't breathe all 60 seconds cause I had 2 lungs full of that precious air. You gotta get used to the wind blowing at your face at 120mph, in the future you might do helmetless hop n' pops, a chinstrap cutaway for a helmet entaglement etc... better to get used to it now so you can deal with it later in my opinion.

As for your goggle problem, a lot of those goggles suck. Get the Z-Flex with the lining that goes around them they work like beauts.

The DZ will say you won't be able to wear a full face because it cuts off field of vision, the visor can come off and distract you, etc... it's an extra element that can cause distractions you don't need.


(This post was edited by chemist on Nov 18, 2013, 8:01 PM)


justinbaker27  (B 40015)

Nov 18, 2013, 8:12 PM
Post #5 of 33 (4516 views)
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Re: [chemist] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not complaining and just because its not comfortable doesn't mean I'm not gonna suck it up for 22 more jumps. One of the instructors at a school here in Florida told me, personally I would let you but the DZ says otherwise. He didn't see anything wrong with it, he said even after the initial AFF 7 I could switch if it wasn't for the DZ and other instructors argued with him about that logic. The thing is most of the people I see jumping don't wear a full face which I don't understand, I know it's a lot more comfortable in the tunnel. It seems it would be the same in the sky


chemist  (A License)

Nov 18, 2013, 8:17 PM
Post #6 of 33 (4492 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

they don't wear it because you get used to the wind your face fast. You won't have to put up with it for 22 more jumps cause it'll feel natural in a few more jumps

come on man you were in the military you can handle a little wind in your face! jk don't mean to give you shit, it's probably not a big deal to wear that helmet but there is some reasoning behind it.


(This post was edited by chemist on Nov 18, 2013, 8:25 PM)


yoink

Nov 18, 2013, 8:24 PM
Post #7 of 33 (4472 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

As a general rule there's no good reason for a student to wear a full face, but there are a number of potential issues if they do - so the 'no full face' rule became widespread.


Instead of trying to change it, try and work around it. It's only for 20 jumps or so... Smile

Try taking an non-drowsy antihistamine before you go in the tunnel - see if that helps the mucus issue. Either that or an anticongestent nasal spray - I'm super snotty when I've got a cold and the Sudafed one usually dries me up no problem.


(This post was edited by yoink on Nov 18, 2013, 8:25 PM)


mcordell

Nov 18, 2013, 8:24 PM
Post #8 of 33 (4469 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

justinbaker27 wrote:
I'm not complaining and just because its not comfortable doesn't mean I'm not gonna suck it up for 22 more jumps. One of the instructors at a school here in Florida told me, personally I would let you but the DZ says otherwise. He didn't see anything wrong with it, he said even after the initial AFF 7 I could switch if it wasn't for the DZ and other instructors argued with him about that logic. The thing is most of the people I see jumping don't wear a full face which I don't understand, I know it's a lot more comfortable in the tunnel. It seems it would be the same in the sky
I used to be way more comfortable with my full face but now I don't care either way unless it's cold. You get used to it. Maybe you should look at a way to mitigate the apparent gallons of mucus in your nose. That being said, to answer your question, keeping in mind I didn't do aff, I can see how they could say it could impede your ability to see hand signals by reducing your effective field of view. Remember, even if you really are a super aware student, not all are equally so and rules for training can't be changed for each student. Pretty much the same in anything.


stratostar  (Student)

Nov 18, 2013, 8:40 PM
Post #9 of 33 (4428 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

It's simple.... Because with it on you won't hear shit when I yell it in your ear, like you would with a protec on with open side on the ears. You also can't and won't hear shit under canopy.


justinbaker27  (B 40015)

Nov 18, 2013, 8:56 PM
Post #10 of 33 (4401 views)
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Re: [stratostar] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

I wasn't aware that in 120mph free fall you could hear anything anyways Smile lol. I thought that's why I spent all that time learning hand signals they put directly in front of my face. But if something is going that wrong that your taking the time to yell in my ear instead of instructing me or even pulling my chute that might be a different conversation. But again I'm just the humble new guy which I why I'm asking these questions..


ouch

Nov 18, 2013, 9:14 PM
Post #11 of 33 (4364 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

It's also harder to see your emergency handles when you wear a full face helmet.

Plus it can fog up. Plus you can get snot all over the inside of it.


Ron

Nov 18, 2013, 9:33 PM
Post #12 of 33 (4342 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1. If air isn't blasting in my face at 120mph you think a person could concentrate better.

If air blasting in your face is going to break your concentration... You have better quit now.

Quote:
2. It's nowhere that I can find in the uspa rule book that you can't wear a full face helmet as a student.

There is nowhere in the USPA BSR's that says you can't wear sunglasses, but you accepted your instructor wants to be able to see your eyes. It is also no where in the USPA BSR's that says you can't wear a scuba mask.... But it is still not a good idea.

Quote:
3. I was in the military, have common sense and take instructions well, this was noted by my instructors in my logbook for all 3 jumps. Good exit,arch,chin up, response to hand signals, altitude awareness.

And this was all with the Goggles. Everyone thinks they can handle the situation..... Confidence is good, but everyone thinks they are above average.

As for "All three jumps"... Two were tandems right? You could be a soup sandwhich and it will not matter on a tandem.

Quote:
4. It doesn't seem very effective to not be able to see well because your goggles are covered with snot.

Imagine snot on the inside of the helmet.

Quote:
So can anyone please tell me why this is a good or bad idea for a student to wear a full face cookie g3 helmet

1. It will make it difficult for you to hear commands in the plane.

2. In freefall I can yell in your ear... Yep, you will hear me with a protec... Can't say you will with a G3.

3. You will hear less under canopy and you need to be able to hear the radio.

4. You will hear less under canopy and you need to have your head on a swivel to avoid others under canopy.

5. Just as you are task loaded... So is your instructor. Now I have to not only check your gear like normal, I also have to check to make sure you put your helmet on. I have to check to make sure the visor is locked down. I have to make sure you close it before we climb out, I have to make sure you can open it in case it fogs.

You are trying to be the square peg destined for a round hole.

Should all of these be big issues? Not really. But the fact is that a training program is exactly that... A program and the best way to get through the program is to not make waves and not ask for special treatment.

That being said, I would not have an issue with a student with a full face helmet. But then again, I work for a DZ and that DZ overrules my personal opinion.


love1234hate  (C License)

Nov 18, 2013, 10:34 PM
Post #13 of 33 (4278 views)
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Re: [Ron] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

Just take up bowling, it is a better sport for you. If you have that much problem with your nose, just wait until you blow out your sinuses, and tell me how you feel. Besides not hearing anything once you put your helmet on, once you are under canopy, you won't be able to hear anything. As an AFF-I, until you get cleared off of radio, I wouldn't let you jump it either.. Owe and BTW that is our policy at my DZ, once cleared from radio, you can jump a full face, but with clear lens.


nigel99  (D 1)

Nov 19, 2013, 2:04 AM
Post #14 of 33 (4189 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

First things first, you MUST deal with the congestion. I take decongestants and nasal spray to clear out for jumping, believe me the pain from sinus issues can be awful.

There are issues that have already been laid out, hearing, visibility are high on the list.


shropshire  (C License)

Nov 19, 2013, 2:54 AM
Post #15 of 33 (4155 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

Your snot problem is probably not from the 120m.p.h wind but from the pressure change (which you wont get in the tunnel.. unless it's 120k feet highTongueTongue).

Sinus problems can be very painful too and force c'rap' into tubes that where it doesn't want to be!! - so yeah, as other have said try to get that problem sorted first.

As for the full face - I don't see a problem either... their DZ, their rulesUnsure


PixieUK  (A License)

Nov 19, 2013, 3:22 AM
Post #16 of 33 (4143 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

I have graduated my A licence in the UK and we are not permitted to wear a full face helmet until we have our B licence (a minimum of 50 jumps plus other qualifications).

The reasons I was given include:
- not being able to hear a radio when an AFF student
- peripheral vision being more restricted with a full face helmet
- downward vision when looking for cut away and reserve handles more restricted with a full face helmet
- possibility of visor fogging up greater than goggles fogging up
- changing arm position to open a visor without compensating with other body movements could put you into a spin or barrel roll

I agree with those who say take decongestants and try to resolve the runny nose - I did see a post somewhere from someone who even tried a swimming nose-clip though not sure I'd take that route, lol.

good luck with sorting the issue


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Nov 19, 2013, 4:19 AM
Post #17 of 33 (4112 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

Adding to what Ron said which are all excellent points and valid today -

The "no full face for students rule" is largely a legacy of when full face designs were inferior to the ones we have today. The Cookies are really some of the first to have virtually no impact on your field of view. With most earlier helmets, you lost some of your ability to look down - to where your emergency handles are!! A crucial point, especially when dealing with students.

For this reason, as well as those pointed out by Ron, historically the "no full face rule" became part of the sports institutional understanding of best practice, whether or not it ever got written down anywhere. The rest of Ron's points are in part why there's been no change to that culturally accepted norm.

By the way, the protec helmets you'll be made to wear are about the only ones in the sport which actually meet any form of safety standard. Remember that next time you've your feet and knees together ready to PLF.

Ps... they also tend to be what the special forces guys wear - or at least they have been whenever I've seen them train. So you still get to look cool (albeit with snot up the front and tufts of hair stuck out the top).

Don't sweat it - just stick your Cookie on the shelf for a few more jumps and be thankful it's someone else's lid getting banged up when you land like a sack of shit. It's a rite of passage.


justinbaker27  (B 40015)

Nov 19, 2013, 4:20 AM
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Re: [Ron] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks everyone for your advice. Again I don't want people to think I'm making waves. I ask the question simply because I want the reasons. If 90% of DZ' agree to do something and its not in the rules then there must be a pretty good reason. Since they couldn't give me one I come here to ask. Everyone is giving me good points for the most part. As far as every other person saying "quit now" "better give up" I find that pretty crazy that fellow skydivers would want a guy to quit so early on because he has questions. Again, I'm not complaining I just want answers is all. Also I should have re-phrased my initial question, I didn't expect to jump with my full face helmet until "AFTER" my 7th AFF jump until I was jumping solo, that fact I prolly should have added in there.

So let me restate my question, Do you think it's a problem for a student to wear a full face helmet "after" his 7th AFF jump when he is no longer using a radio or jumping under direct instruction?


manseman  (D License)

Nov 19, 2013, 4:31 AM
Post #19 of 33 (4101 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

justinbaker27 wrote:
So let me restate my question, Do you think it's a problem for a student to wear a full face helmet "after" his 7th AFF jump when he is no longer using a radio or jumping under direct instruction?
It'll still affect your hearing in the plane and under canopy and there are plenty of situations where a visor problem (fog, ice, blood, can't get it to open, can't get it to close etc) takes a bit more concentration to deal with than a pair of goggles would. So yes, it could be a problem. The less experience you have, the more dangerous are all the seemingly minor things that frequently happen. That's why beginners are made to keep things as simple as possible.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Nov 19, 2013, 5:09 AM
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

OHHHHHHHH FOR FUUUUUUUUCKS SAKE!!!!!

If you can't get anyone to help you there; then just wait till Spring and bring your ass to Tulsa - we'll get you done. If you had an IED blow your hearing, physical or other handicap - people would be barrel rolling over each other to try to figure out how to help.

C'mon people - if something's distracting his freefall and there is a tool to help him to concentrate more - use the fucking thing. Oh but, he can't use a radio. Well, guess what - we taught lotsa skydivers before there were radios and about half the time; students now will complain they couldn't hear the radio - CAUSE their ears get plugged up.

It's not a cookie cutter world.

Go ahead - flame on. I've got my flame retardant panties on.

ETA: And you, get your ass to a Doctor and get your sinuses checked out.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Nov 19, 2013, 5:15 AM)


councilman24  (D 8631)

Nov 19, 2013, 5:36 AM
Post #21 of 33 (4028 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
So let me restate my question, Do you think it's a problem for a student to wear a full face helmet "after" his 7th AFF jump when he is no longer using a radio or jumping under direct instruction?

Yes, it is a safety issue. Your vision is impaired, your hearing is impaired, it's less protective than a ProTec. In a tunnel you don't have to see a canopy coming at you, you don't have to see your emergency handles, you don't have to hear the guy your about to run into under canopy yelling at you, you may not hear changes in air speed that are important in judging canopy flight. Your not done learning. Your 'coach' (read experienced jumper jumping with you) may need to yell at you, in the plane or yes in freefall, they may want to see your eyes to see if you have a clue (completely serious, if see lots of blank looks on newbies). For same reason we don't allow tinted or worse mirrored goggles.

After 35 years I still don't like the limitations of a full face helmet and haven't bought one. They were developed because RW teams didn't want to get kicked in the jaw turning points. AFTER you have some level of experience, I like b license in England, you can decide to place limitations on your senses. Remember, you can DIE skydiving. It pretty hard to in a tunnel.

And the wind in your face is a FEATURE of skydiving, not a liability!Mad

When your no longer someone else's responsibility and have a license you can do what you want.


Ron

Nov 19, 2013, 6:02 AM
Post #22 of 33 (3985 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Also I should have re-phrased my initial question, I didn't expect to jump with my full face helmet until "AFTER" my 7th AFF jump until I was jumping solo, that fact I prolly should have added in there.

Again, *I, me, this guy* do not have a problem with a helmet like the G3. I would not let you jump a helmet that obscured your handles (as someone pointed out it as an issue, I didn't mention it because you had bought a G3 and it does not have this issue).

I can't personally see why the DZ would have a problem after you are off of the basic 7 AFF levels and no longer on a radio. But you would have to ask them.... I have done private classes where the student was in a bootie suit and with a full face helmet. But that is a totally different situation.


Ron

Nov 19, 2013, 6:13 AM
Post #23 of 33 (3966 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Oh but, he can't use a radio. Well, guess what - we taught lotsa skydivers before there were radios and about half the time; students now will complain they couldn't hear the radio - CAUSE their ears get plugged up.

And we teach deaf students.... But that also takes more time and is a disability that cannot be changed, so we deal with it.

If he is going to wear a full face helmet, then both he and the instructor need to practice that skill set. And while I don't mind doing it, I can easily see why a DZ would not want to take that extra time or that extra liability.

It has already been stated that a Prtotec is the ONLY helmet to have actual impact tests done on it. So if a guy shows up with a G3 and pounds in (maybe because he could not hear the radio). Do you really want to be the DZO that gets drug into court and has to explain why you let a student jump a non-rated, *non- standard* student helmet that made it more difficult to hear the radio (and in some cases, see the emergency handles)?

As for it not being a cookie cutter world. If the student felt better wearing a Go Pro, would you let him?

Also, I am assuming you work or own a small DZ. It is much easier to make concessions at a small DZ (one of the reasons I actually suggest smaller DZ's to learn). It is about scale. If I had 10 students to jump with in a day, I'd want them as cookie cutter gear equipped as possible. Just like I try not to jump Strong and Sigma on the same day back and forth.

But when I have a private student I often have them in a full face and wearing a bootie suit before they are done with L7. But in those cases I have ALL day to spend with them and I can make them walk around flipping up and dropping the visor all day if I want.

This is about ignoring best practices. I am not saying it can't be done, but it adds risk and liability.


justinbaker27  (B 40015)

Nov 19, 2013, 6:42 AM
Post #24 of 33 (3921 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

BIGUN, it's funny that you mentioned the disability thing because I am a disabled veteran honorably discharged and I carry my DD214 and my card with me. I appreciate the offer I really do but I'm not looking to fight the system because I want very badly to be a licensed skydiver so I'm gonna play ball. I just didn't find the in person answer sufficient so I came here. Also I bought the cookie because it wasn't supposed to impede my vision and spent $370 so of course I wanna use it lol


DrDom  (Student)

Nov 19, 2013, 8:14 AM
Post #25 of 33 (3798 views)
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Re: [justinbaker27] AFF Student Wearing Full Face Helmet [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't weigh in on the helmet debate but have you considered a drying agent like Scopolamine? You can put a patch on and the anticholinergic effect of the medication will dry your sinuses right out.

I think fear tends to dry mine, but in your case I recommend giving it a shot. Wear it on the ground for a few days to make sure you can tolerate it.


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