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New Rigger Equipment

 

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Deisel  (D 31661)

Nov 5, 2013, 6:35 PM
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New Rigger Equipment Can't Post

I'm looking to take the riggers course in a couple of months. So what equipment should a new rigger get? Just looking for the basics that would allow for run of the mill, beginner senior rigger level work. I know that the basic tool kit is required but is there anything else I should expect to need? Is there such a thing as an entry level sewing machine?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 5, 2013, 7:33 PM
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Re: [Deisel] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you read the sticky, So you wanna be a rigger eh


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 5, 2013, 7:36 PM
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Re: [Deisel] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Cypres pakers kit
old B-12 Snap
Molar strap
9 inch long mattress needle
Super-Tack Cord
red cotton reserve sealing thread
scissors
6 inch steel ruler
measuring tape (at least a metre long)
knee board
aluminum packing paddle
drag mat
clamps
Dionne Strap


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Nov 5, 2013, 7:51 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Rob,

Quote:
Dionne Strap

So I thinking this is something Ron came up with.

Tell us more.

JerryBaumchen


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 4:26 AM
Post #5 of 60 (3433 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Also:
Adjustable 6" wrench
Multi-head screwdriver (see if you can also find a CYPRES screwdriver, they're great for things like altimeters and such)
Finger trapping fids/wires. Wires seem to be a little easier to use.
I use an old asprin bottle for my lead seals
You can make your own packing weights.
Seal press, there's a few varieties floating around, try to get your hands on the old military seal press with the bolts, not the roll pins (though with a little trial and error, you can get a bolt that fits in there, its just not as clean).
When you're ready to order your seal die, there's a place I recommend over paragear... I'll try to find the link.



Other than that, you're probably able to get away with packing square reserves. If you're going to pack rounds (which I think riggers should but I'll happily pack them) a line separator is a must.

If you're going to gear up for replacing grommets/sewing machines, I'd work with the guys in the course/riggers around you to figure out what you need and where you should get it. Not everyone needs a half dozen sewing machines and all of the grommet dies.

A basic sewing machine that I use is a Singer 31-15. Straight stitch only but it can be found on craigslist for as low as $25 with table and motor!


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Nov 6, 2013, 4:33 AM)


dpreguy  (D 835)

Nov 6, 2013, 6:45 AM
Post #6 of 60 (3290 views)
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Re: [Deisel] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Must have :

. Poynter II
. Parachute Rigger Handbook

All available from Para Gear

( Nice to have Fabric Sample Booklet too, also avail from Para Gear)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Nov 6, 2013, 7:21 AM
Post #7 of 60 (3229 views)
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Re: [dpreguy] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

dpreguy wrote:
Must have :

. Poynter II
. Parachute Rigger Handbook

All available from Para Gear

( Nice to have Fabric Sample Booklet too, also avail from Para Gear)

You can get the FAA Parachute Rigger Handbook as a free download from the FAA. No sense in spending a bunch of money for a hard copy.


Deisel  (D 31661)

Nov 6, 2013, 7:43 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Rob. Thanks for the info and yes I did read the sticky. I'm trying to expand and clarify the part about tools. The sticky says not to buy much up front. But my issue is that I don't have a rigger loft to consult and have very limited time on the DZ to talk to the (1) available rigger. So trying to figure it out as I go is a bit of a challenge. The next hurdle will be trying to figure out what these tools are that you guys have listed, as I've never heard of some of them before. But this is a great list to have in my pocket before the course starts. Thanks again.

D


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:37 AM
Post #9 of 60 (3152 views)
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Re: [Deisel] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Deisel wrote:
The next hurdle will be trying to figure out what these tools are that you guys have listed, as I've never heard of some of them before.

Many riggers have tools in their kit that you wouldn't expect a rigger to have in their kit. It makes the job easier for some people to use things like molar straps, I have one but hardly use it... Use what ever works for you.

Which tools are the ones you've never heard of?

Oh, just thought of a couple more.
Some T-Bodkins (I have a couple and they do help with some bail out rigs)
A NEW (or very well cleaned) M-16 cleaning rod (the one that's a few pieces with the end eye that you would put the cleaning pad thru)
I try to keep one of the (umpteen) Gerbers I got in the Army in my kit, never know when it'll help out.
You can make a velcro strap for freebags to protect the lines while you're stowing them. If you don't know what I'm talking about, that one will become obvious when you get some packjobs.


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Nov 6, 2013, 8:42 AM)


indyz  (D 28525)

Nov 6, 2013, 10:04 AM
Post #10 of 60 (3078 views)
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Re: [Deisel] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Deisel wrote:
Hi Rob. Thanks for the info and yes I did read the sticky. I'm trying to expand and clarify the part about tools. The sticky says not to buy much up front. But my issue is that I don't have a rigger loft to consult and have very limited time on the DZ to talk to the (1) available rigger. So trying to figure it out as I go is a bit of a challenge. The next hurdle will be trying to figure out what these tools are that you guys have listed, as I've never heard of some of them before. But this is a great list to have in my pocket before the course starts. Thanks again.

If you are attending a course, you should talk to the person giving the course. Some courses require you to bring your own tools, and they should provide a list of what you need. Other courses (Dave DeWolf's comes to mind) provide tools as part of the course.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Nov 6, 2013, 10:24 AM
Post #11 of 60 (3053 views)
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Re: [Deisel] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Deisel,

Take a look here:

http://www.paragear.com/category/10000167/

And I like these:

http://www.paragear.com/...ucts/10000168/M5995/

http://www.paragear.com/...ucts/10000168/S7935/

http://www.paragear.com/...ucts/10000168/S7938/

That should keep you busy for a while.

JerryBaumchen


monkycndo  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 10:47 AM
Post #12 of 60 (3034 views)
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Re: [Deisel] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

The machine Ski mentioned is a good straight stitcher. If you want a combo machine for straight and zigzag, look for Singer 20U-33, Pfaff 138 or 238 or Bernina(Chandler) 217. If you can find a 217 with the cam drive on the back of the machine, you can get a cam to do a 308 stitch as well. If you want to start out cheap, a home machine like a a Singer 401A or 500A will push a jeans needle and E thread.

When you are ready to go big, I have a Consew 733 and a bar tacker for sale.Angelic


RiggerLee

Nov 6, 2013, 11:20 AM
Post #13 of 60 (3002 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a good thread but you seem to be focused on tools and toys when that's probably the least important thing you could bring with you to a rigging course. The most valuable thing you could be doing over the next few months before you leave is spending every moment with your local rigger. Try very hard to knock out some pack jobs with him on as wide a variety of rigs as you can find. Pilot rigs, rounds, old and new. Spend some time learning to sew patches on scrap fabric. Read. It would be really helpful if you could get twenty or thirty repacks in your log book before you left. Get some seat packs. While you're there test for both. It's not that great of an addition to the test and it's a good rating to have.

I'm going to rant a little.

This is not really how you should be doing this. These courses are not how you are supposed to become a rigger. You can not expect to show up some place for one or two weeks and learn to be a rigger. I think it takes a minimum of six months to attain minimal proficiency. It's supposed to be an apprenticeship.

Dewolf ran a course for years. But it was always seen as a last resort for some one that didn't have access to a local active rigger that they could work under. A course like this where they try to cram a years worth of knowledge into a week and then take a big rubber stamp and go cachunga on you forehead does not really make you a rigger. It barely gives you the qualifications to take the test. You'll find that there is a lot left to learn after it's over. Hopefully there will be other riggers that can continue your education once you return.

It really bugs me that these kind of courses have caught on and become the standard means of training which I think is a... bad thing. It's not that the people are not competent or good teachers it's just that you're asking too much of them.

If you're serious about doing this, don't sweet the tools. Focus on the learning. Get some pack jobs in before you leave. Read. Sew. Do not show up there behind the power curve. Make the best use of the time you have there. It's perreshes.

End of rant.

Lee


Deisel  (D 31661)

Nov 6, 2013, 11:40 AM
Post #14 of 60 (2985 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Lee,
Thanks for the insight as I'd not heard this perspective before. If it really is a year long apprenticeship if done properly, I don't see many people doing it right. Does anyone out there have a recommended skill progression worked out? What is the proper order of skills and over what time period should they be worked on? What performance standard is expected? Etc, etc... I understand that these are questions for my local rigger but I really don't have one.

And FYI, you just described me exactly - I'm taking Dewolf's course in January because I don't have access to an active local rigger. There are reasons I won't discuss in public, but largely because there's a need and I plan to fill the void until a better solution presents itself.


RiggerLee

Nov 6, 2013, 1:23 PM
Post #15 of 60 (2912 views)
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Re: [Deisel] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

There isn't really a skill progression or order in which they must be learned. Most of these things run parallel to each other. Rigging is multifaceted. There are many types of riggers. And to be honest very few ever master all the aspects of the field. There are riggers that pack. There are riggers that sew. There are riggers that design and build. There are people that work with PEP's. There are riggers that work on ejection seats. Some riggers work with heavy drop systems. And a few even work at drop zones on skydiving equipment.

The thing is there is really only one riggers ticket. If you get a back rating you are supposed to be competent and capable of dealing with and servicing any back style parachute that walks through the door. Whether it's a skydiving container with a square or a pilot rig with a round. It might be a Mirage or it might be a BA-22. There are no limited certificates.

There are four ratings that they try to break it down into. Some people say that it should be broken down differently but for now it's what we have. And if you have a rating you are expected to be fully versed and competent with in it.

There are two classes. The god like Master rigger and the lowly Senior rigger. And this is a matter of experience. A master Rigger has been around working on that equipment long enough to be entrusted to determine the air worthiness of major repairs and approved alterations. That's all. That's the big difference. It does not in any way affect the work that they can do. A Senior rigger can do major repairs and approved alterations all day long, they must simply be signed off by a master rigger to be returned to service. In fact that's the only way for a senior rigger to become a master rigger is for them to spend two years doing all of these things under the watchful eye of a master rigger. Only after 200 plus pack jobs in two ratings and years of performing major repairs and alterations can they be trusted to have the experience necessary to have the judgment to then sign off these things as a master rigger.

This is the way I understand it.

As to training. Actually there are a lot of people, "doing it right" what ever that may mean. There are busy lofts from one side of the country to the other. There are manufactures and large drop zones. There are aerobatic clubs and glider clubs and flying museums. All of which can have very active lofts. Many of these people are willing to take on students or at least slaves. And many people are trained in this way with a deep and thorough grounding in a wide variety of skills.

As to how long it takes... it takes as long as it takes and if done right the testing is at most a formality. The requirements are minimal and are almost a given by the time you get around to taking your test. The performance standards... I suppose you could say that TSOc-23what ever, is the standard but in truth there is the assumption of a fairly large knowledge base that is standard to the industry. Pointers and the new parachute manual are you best guides to this. It's a cop out to say that but it would take me a year to elaborate on the answer.

I think that what you are doing is really cool, stepping up like this. It has been and can be done. It's hard. People have walked into these classes cold but it's Very rough. Forget sleep. You really need to find some way to make some progress before you get there. A few pack jobs. Some sewing. Reading. Any thing you can do. And when you're done you will feel even less knowledgeable then now But at least you'll have an idea of what you don't know. Make as many contacts as you can while you are there. All of your instructors will be more then happy to help you in the future. They are just a phone call away. It's going to suck if you really are left in a void after the class. It will be like getting your student license. You'll find that you still have a lot to learn or figure out by your self.

Lee


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Nov 6, 2013, 2:00 PM
Post #16 of 60 (2883 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This is not really how you should be doing this. These courses are not how you are supposed to become a rigger. You can not expect to show up some place for one or two weeks and learn to be a rigger. I think it takes a minimum of six months to attain minimal proficiency. It's supposed to be an apprenticeship.

Lee, that is your opinion but we will have to agree to disagree on this.
The apprenticeship is between the senior rigger and master rigger certificate in my opinion. Did you ever get your master's certificate BTW?

Quote:
Dewolf ran a course for years.

He still does, along with myself and about 21 other instructors.

Quote:
These courses are not how you are supposed to become a rigger.

There are more riggers trained this way than any other way just so you know.

Quote:
A course like this where they try to cram a years worth of knowledge into a week and then take a big rubber stamp and go cachunga on you forehead does not really make you a rigger. It barely gives you the qualifications to take the test. You'll find that there is a lot left to learn after it's over. Hopefully there will be other riggers that can continue your education once you return.

As you probably do not know, The FAA (several of them actually) is there overseeing the testing. We focus on the test standards and abide by them verbatim.

Also for your information, we do not simply "rubber stamp" the applicants and I take that comment with a large grain of salt!


MEL


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Nov 6, 2013, 3:40 PM
Post #17 of 60 (2805 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A Senior rigger can do major repairs and approved alterations all day long, they must simply be signed off by a master rigger to be returned to service. In fact that's the only way for a senior rigger to become a master rigger is for them to spend two years doing all of these things under the watchful eye of a master rigger.

Negative.
It is not the only way to become a master rigger.

A person without any certificate can earn the experience necessary by working under a senior rigger for the pack jobs, then gain the other work elsewhere like in a manufacturer's environment or etc.
I do not recommend it, but it can and has been done before.

Just for an example, Rags Raghanti (from PD) went straight from not holding a certificate to a Master's certificate.

...and also it is three years experience in the field of parachutes, not three years holding a Senior certificate.

MEL


Deisel  (D 31661)

Nov 6, 2013, 3:57 PM
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Re: [masterrigger1] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the in depth posts from both Lee and Mel. Logical disagreement with well thought out and reasoned arguments only make us more intelligent on any particular topic. Thanks again for the discussion. There is quite a bit here outside of skydiving that I had not considered.


hookitt  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 6:05 PM
Post #19 of 60 (2711 views)
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Re: [Deisel] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Great thread.

Here's my simple list since you did ask :)

Knee Plate
- If it doesn't have a hole in it, drill one. You can use it to stretch Closing loops.
- Draw an accurate ruler on it. You can measure the closing loop without having to find a ruler.
- You can use it for it's intended purpose!
Positive Leverage Device
- Some people frown upon these. Ive' rigged since 93 and don't have an issue with it's use. Just don't be dumb with it.
- Again, Don't be a dummy. Use it for good such as not straining your back. It's very easy to use without overtighting. Closing small tight rigs, or any rig, can slowly be closed and not over tighted with ease.
- The round pipe is also a great handle if you have a rig easy to close.
CYPRES Rigging Kit (includes Temp Pins No need for a seperate line item)
- Comes with good Temp Pins and a large dull sail needle, Silicon, CYPRES loop material. You will use them extensively. Buy extras or have a buffing wheel and jewlers rouge handy. Temp pins get dinged up no matter how careful you are.
Small Button Hook
- Great for finger trapping. Even works on CYPRES material.
Tapered Packing Paddles
- You need packing paddles
- Tapered so one end will fit into the groove of the positive leverage device so you can move the handle easy. Don't pry with it, just hold it place.
22 Rifle Cleaning Rod
- Used to fish the closing loop through the Pilot chute
T-Bodkins
- Optional. I fine uses for them because I have them.
2 Inch Spring Clamps <== click
- 4 or 5
- Don't be alarmed, the serrated parts are actually soft.
- Clamp the sides once the reduction folds are created
- Other Uses
1 inch Spring Clamps <== clickl
- Great to use on the top edge above the A B C lines and with a few canopies, even the D lines but mostly they get in the way on the D lines
- 4 should do it.
- Other uses
- I use either the 2 or the 1 to clamp the risers together.
Locking Pull Up Cords
- You need at least one. Get a Ring, a Rapide link, I big link from a chain... something like that to larks head through the bottom to keep it in place. Then when it's time, take the ring off and thread the pull up cord through it. (That will make sense later)

Small good quality Crescent Wrench.
- Rapide Links
Smooth Philips Screwdriver or the T-Bodkin, or the 22 cleaning rod to pull on the reserve closing loop... that you put through the knee plate to stretch it.

Sewing Needles.
Extra Sail Needles because they're the best --- dull one when you lose the cypres needle

Long length of 1 inch Pile Velcro
- You don't need 2 pieces of velcro with flag on each one for the reserve freebag. A single works much better. Out in the field I've even used Velcro toggles.

Super Tack
- Look at what holds your housings on your rig... that stuff.
Seal Thread and Seals
- You'll need this after you get your ticket.
- If you need the thread and seals, get your seal press.

I don't use a molar strap. You're welcome to, I have no use for one.

Hmmm... if I can think of more I will add to this. You don't need a lot of tools to pack reserves. Obviously, You must learn more than just packin, but you must have reserve packing tools.

Don't get carried away. Don't bother with a high dollar rigging kit and bag. Go get a tackle box, or another tool bag from a hardware store. If you get a tool bag, you can make a belly band out of the Shoulder strap.



Edit: to Bold Locking Pull Up Cords.


(This post was edited by hookitt on Nov 6, 2013, 6:12 PM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 6, 2013, 7:13 PM
Post #20 of 60 (2657 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

wolfriverjoe wrote:
dpreguy wrote:
Must have :

. Poynter II
. Parachute Rigger Handbook

All available from Para Gear

( Nice to have Fabric Sample Booklet too, also avail from Para Gear)

You can get the FAA Parachute Rigger Handbook as a free download from the FAA. No sense in spending a bunch of money for a hard copy.

................................................................................

Spend the extra money for a colour copy of the FAA Manual. Full-colour pictures make it waaaaaaay easier to identify trace threads on webbing.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 6, 2013, 7:23 PM
Post #21 of 60 (2643 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

theonlyski wrote:
Deisel wrote:
...
Some T-Bodkins (I have a couple and they do help with some bail out rigs)...
"

...................................................................................

Steel T-bodkins are really only relevant when packing Strong Para-Cushion pilot emergency parachutes.
If you are planning on packing any other type of Pop-Top container (Racer, Teardrop, Reflex, etc.) ask Jump Shack (aka the Racer Factory) for your free set of "ghost-loops."
Ghost-loops are better because they are made of Cypres cord and easily slide through AAD cutters.
Once you have seen a set of factory "ghost-loops", you will easily be able to copy them.
If you are making a single ghost-loop (e.g. for a Reflex) tie a piece of scrap metal (e.g. Maillon Rapide connector link) on the bottom.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 6, 2013, 7:25 PM
Post #22 of 60 (2639 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

theonlyski wrote:
Also:
Adjustable 6" wrench ...
"

.....................................................................................

9mm open-end wrench for Maillon Rapide #5 ... the most popular size for reserves


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 6, 2013, 7:31 PM
Post #23 of 60 (2633 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes. the Dionne Strap was invented by Ron Dionne.
It starts with a bout 1 metre (1 yard for Americans) of 1 inch wide Type 4 tape.

Using Type 3 tape, sew a total of 4 horizontal straps on to the main strap. Horizontal straps may be a foot (30 cm for Europeans) or 2 long. The horizontal straps should be free to slide up and down the base strap.
Sew an large and ugly lump on the bottom end and a 1 inch loop on the top.

Hang the Dionne Strap from your ceiling, flake your square reserve, then tie a top horizontal strap around your !-lines.
Tie the second horizontal strap around your B-lines, etc.
The Dionne Strap helps keep suspension line son the center-line while you fiddle with the canopy on the floor.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 6, 2013, 7:43 PM
Post #24 of 60 (2612 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

Backing up Riggerlee ...

Only a handful have passed DeWolf's course coming in cold ... and they all admitted that they would have much been much wiser to have packed most of the 20 reserves (required by the FAA) before the start of the course.

The most important thing you can do is pack a couple dozen reserves (under the supervision of your local rigger) before the course. Start by packing the same square reserve into a popular (1-pin sport reserve like an Icon, Infinity, Mirage or Vector) half-dozen times .. or however long it takes you to start developing a rhythm.
Then ask your mentor to show you the finer points of closing Javelins, etc.

This advice comes from a Rigger Examiner who has trained riggers in Canada, Switzerland and the USA.

All the students - who struggled in my courses packed fewer than 10 reserves before the course.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 6, 2013, 7:53 PM
Post #25 of 60 (2593 views)
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Re: [hookitt] New Rigger Equipment [In reply to] Can't Post

"...
Locking Pull Up Cords
- You need at least one. Get a Ring, a Rapide link, I big link from a chain... something like that to larks head through the bottom to keep it in place. Then when it's time, take the ring off and thread the pull up cord through it. (That will make sense later)

..."

....................................................................................

I just tie a large, ugly knot in the bottom of my locking pull-up cord.


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