Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Jun 5, 2013, 1:32 AM
Post #1 of 41 (3326 views)
Shortcut
206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 Can't Post

From http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/...rgency-plane-landing

Quote:
Officials say the pilot of a private plane had just released skydivers when he was forced to make an emergency landing at Door County Cherryland Airport on Saturday morning.

Michael A. Delain, 50, Larsen, sustained only a bloody nose when the Cessna 206 he was piloting crashed about 200 feet short of the runway, according to an incident report released by the Door County Sheriffs Department. The airplane flipped upon touchdown and landed upside down at 11:25 a.m. Delain was able to get out of the aircraft without assistance.

Delain is a contract pilot for Skydive Door County. The 1967 Cessna, N3350J, is listed as a single-engine plane registered with Out of the Blue Skydiving LLC in Penrose, Colo.

According to the incident report, Delain said he was at about 1,200 feet attempting to land when the engine sputtered and died. The plane takes fuel one tank at a time, he said. He toggled the electric fuel pump to switch tanks, but the engine did not start. The fuel gauge showed fuel in the tank.

As he knew he would not make it to the runway and did not want to hit the signposts on the north side of the airport, he veered to the east. He believes all three wheels hit at the same time, the nose dug in and the airplane flipped on its top, he told authorities. He then pulled his seat belt, pushed the door, got out and contacted the airport.

The owner of Skydive Door County, Mercedes Wadkins, said she was happy Delain was all right.

The National Transportation Safety Board Inspector, Katherine Vuksanovic with the Milwaukee FAA, is completing an investigation.

Besides the Door County Sheriffs Department, the Southern Door First Responders, Southern Door Fire Department and Door County Emergency Services responded to the scene.
Attachments: bilde.jpg (24.6 KB)


larrypen  (D 9590)

Jun 5, 2013, 11:04 AM
Post #2 of 41 (2875 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cpoxon] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad you are ok and no one was hurt to bad. If I was that airplane owner as soon as your nose healed I would bloody it again for being STUPID if you ran out of gas. JMO


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jun 5, 2013, 11:12 AM
Post #3 of 41 (2859 views)
Shortcut
Re: [larrypen] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

larrypen wrote:
Glad you are ok and no one was hurt to bad. If I was that airplane owner as soon as your nose healed I would bloody it again for being STUPID if you ran out of gas. JMO

If he ran out of gas??? Agreed. But let's wait to see what really happened before we burn a pilot at the stake. Smile


normiss  (D 28356)

Jun 5, 2013, 12:38 PM
Post #4 of 41 (2786 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skyjumpenfool] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

He did state the gauges showed fuel.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 5, 2013, 7:35 PM
Post #5 of 41 (2552 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
He did state the gauges showed fuel.

So would I ! Wink


skinnay

Jun 5, 2013, 9:29 PM
Post #6 of 41 (2491 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
He did state the gauges showed fuel.

before or after the plane was upside down?


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jun 6, 2013, 9:21 AM
Post #7 of 41 (2305 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cpoxon] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a total quibble but I grew up in Green Bay, and this incident occurred about 45 miles away near Sturgeon Bay, WI. Green Bay is in Brown County. Door County (the peninsula that separates Lake Michigan from Green Bay (the body of water)) is to the northeast.

The confusion may be due to the fact that it was the green bay paper that reported it.


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Jun 6, 2013, 9:23 AM)


propofol65  (D 29502)

Jun 6, 2013, 10:41 AM
Post #8 of 41 (2233 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cpoxon] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw this report Sunday evening:


http://www.jsonline.com/...watch/209844781.html


206doorman  (D 3883)

Jun 6, 2013, 12:28 PM
Post #9 of 41 (2163 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cpoxon] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

200 ft short?
If he'd left the flaps up,maybe he'd have made the field.


irishrigger  (D 297)

Jun 6, 2013, 12:51 PM
Post #10 of 41 (2147 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally would not trust fuel gauges on any cessnaMad they might at best give you a very rough indication, but i always manual dip the tanks,its the only sure way to know.TongueAngelic

Rodger


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 7, 2013, 7:39 AM
Post #11 of 41 (1876 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
He did state the gauges showed fuel.

Something to remember about 206s vs 182s.

A 182's fuel selector can feed from 3 settings, right, left and both, where as a 206 has right, left and off. Not saying this is, or isn't the case, but it is possible to have fuel in a 206 and not be feeding from that tank.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jun 7, 2013, 8:11 AM
Post #12 of 41 (1859 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cpoxon] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Too Long Final? Too wide downwind?

C

And what's this bs about toggling fuel switch?


twatterpilot  (A License)

Jun 8, 2013, 2:04 PM
Post #13 of 41 (1636 views)
Shortcut
Re: [206doorman] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Boy you guys sure do like crucifying pilots don't you?

Unless you are a Commercially rated Pilot, with Cessna 206 time, you are not qualified to comment on this incident.

However, you may ASK for a professional pilot to chime in and comment with possible causes.

Education time kids:

#1. Depending on setting, the flaps may EXTEND the glide in an engine out situation. Looks like his were set at about 20 degrees. Appropriate setting, I would have used 10. Probably would not have made too much of a difference. He probably put more down shortly before touchdown.

#2. If the engine quit at, lets just say 1200 AGL, you have 60 seconds to make the right decision. How many of you geniuses have made the right decision when you have an issue? Oh yeah, check the incident and blue skies forums to find those stats.

#3. Engine failure or partial power loss can be caused by a dozen different issues NOT pilot related. Just a few examples:

a. Induction icing.
b. Fuel starvation due to a clogged fuel vent.
c. Fuel starvation caused by a fuel pump or injector pump failure.
d. Camshaft failure or lifter failure.
f. Magneto drive gear or mag failure.
g. spark plug ejection. Rare but has happened.
h. Fuel contamination.
i. Spark plug fouling.
j. Bird strike blocking the air intake.
k. Exhaust system failure.
l. Swallowed a valve.
etc etc etc

Emergency procedures:
Mixture RICH
Emergency boost pump ON
Fuel tank selector CHANGE
Flaps FIRST NOTCH
Speed BEST GLIDE


It takes 10 seconds to realize there is a problem, identify it, and accomplish the emergency procedures and establish glide.

Next time something like this happens, how about you give a damn about the condition of the pilot and NOT start throwing blame at the poor guy and kicking him while he is down?
How many posts ask how the idiot that hooked too low is doing and "sending good vibes" but not a damn one asking how the pilot is doing when he/she has an incident/accident?

How would you like us as pilots to start slinging poo about the dumb a$$ skydiver that hooked it too low, or the idiot who kept trying to do up his chest strap and almost bounced? (looked a lot like someone who might have gotten loaded up and forgot to put the gear down or change tanks huh?)

You as a group need to stop the blame game on the pilots. Because you all need to remember, without PILOTS you are nothing but a bunch of people who prance about with expensive, funny looking backpacks on.


(This post was edited by twatterpilot on Jun 8, 2013, 2:18 PM)


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Jun 8, 2013, 2:25 PM
Post #14 of 41 (1621 views)
Shortcut
Re: [twatterpilot] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice rant and probably partly deserved. But not entirely correct. Pilots DO need skydivers. A/C run on money and we pay for it. And yes, when one of us screws up our friends will crucify us here. I know nothing about the incident and I am not commenting on it, only your rant. This is a skydive incident forum and we appreciate your input as a professional pilot. But don't expect us to act like it's a pilot's forum.

Aircraft incidents are almost always pilot error, just like skydive incidents are almost always caused by errors.


twatterpilot  (A License)

Jun 8, 2013, 2:39 PM
Post #15 of 41 (1609 views)
Shortcut
Re: [gowlerk] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for the "partial" acknowledgement. And I see much less crucifying of the skydivers than the pilots, but I digress.

And there are other jobs for pilots, we really, truly, don't need skydivers. The vast majority of us do it because in spite of the crappy pay and horrible work hours, we do like the work, and for the most part the people are pretty cool. We can flight instruct, tow banners, tow gliders, fly pipeline and power line patrol, aerial photography, aerial survey etc, we don't need skydive flying. In fact, most consider it a last resort.

An airplane and a pile of money are nothing more than an expensive piggy bank. Until you put a pilot in the seat. Then it becomes something useful.

I don't expect it to become a pilots forum. Perhaps a pilots forum is in order, but I doubt we will see it here. There are a few of us more than willing to share our time and knowledge to help educate the skydiving public about how things work from our side of things.

And yes, you are right about most incidents are pilot error, as are almost all skydiving incidents. But we don't speak ill of the dead, or throw salt in the wound of the hurt.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jun 8, 2013, 3:27 PM
Post #16 of 41 (1592 views)
Shortcut
Re: [twatterpilot] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey, it's not a skydiver's job to make sure there's sufficient fuel in the aircraft.
PLEASE do that for us.
Every time.


twatterpilot  (A License)

Jun 8, 2013, 5:21 PM
Post #17 of 41 (1540 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

And we do. As do 99.95% of the pilots that fly jumpers.

And do you think that was the issue in this incident beyond the shadow of a doubt? I don't. It might have been, but we don't know yet.

But occasionally mistakes get made. On days we are stuck in the cockpit for 30 loads, no breaks, cold food if any, warm Gatorade if any, pissing in the empty bottles, covered in jet fuel, sweating our butts off, perhaps a slip up is just that, a slip up. Like forgetting to put on your chest strap. Or turning on your AAD, or forgetting your goggles. Instead of brow beating us, how about helping us? Not throwing our food in the trash and respond "not my job" when the pilot's wife brings him something to eat.

And you can please do something for us. Wear your seat belt and your helmet below 1,500', and make sure you load the airplane properly, observe sterile cockpit during critical phases of flight, (in jump ops I would call it anytime below 3000' AGL) help the pilot when he/she asks for it, and please don't assume the pilot is automatically at fault when something abnormal happens.

And if you feel concerned about the fuel load, ask. Nicely. In a nice, calm voice that has no intonation of anger or conflict, ask, "hey (name), need anything, food?, drink?, how's your fuel?, need a hand with the fuel hose?"

Every time.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jun 8, 2013, 5:40 PM
Post #18 of 41 (1519 views)
Shortcut
Re: [twatterpilot] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed.

Just seems like a good time to remind people. Tongue

Jebus! I love helping the pilot because I realize it's generally a thankless job. I thank you guys all the time!
I'm even glad to hold that stick thingy and not kill any of us all the way to the top so you boys CAN eat and pee.
I do everything there you ask. Every time.
I also generally offer free yelling services when we're sitting on the ground burning money because some hammerhead jumper has his head up his ass. Tongue

I fuel plenty of aircraft to help when turning loads too.
(I will NOT ask if you need help holding your hose though, your on your own there buddy Wink)

At first look and reports, fuel is the issue in this incident.
I fully understand many things can cause that condition.
How often HAS it been pilot error to run out of fuel?
It's win-win when we help each other. I fully support this.
I try to do everything I can regarding all DZ ops to help keep the place running efficiently, smartly, and safely.








twatterpilot  (A License)

Jun 8, 2013, 6:21 PM
Post #22 of 41 (1494 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
Agreed.

Just seems like a good time to remind people. Tongue

Jebus! I love helping the pilot because I realize it's generally a thankless job. I thank you guys all the time!
I'm even glad to hold that stick thingy and not kill any of us all the way to the top so you boys CAN eat and pee.
I do everything there you ask. Every time.
I also generally offer free yelling services when we're sitting on the ground burning money because some hammerhead jumper has his head up his ass. Tongue

I fuel plenty of aircraft to help when turning loads too.
(I will NOT ask if you need help holding your hose though, your on your own there buddy Wink)

At first look and reports, fuel is the issue in this incident.
I fully understand many things can cause that condition.
How often HAS it been pilot error to run out of fuel?
It's win-win when we help each other. I fully support this.
I try to do everything I can regarding all DZ ops to help keep the place running efficiently, smartly, and safely.


You rock bro! Little upset you won't hold my hose for me.. Frown LOL Laugh

It is ALWAYS pilot error to run out of gas. Inexcusable mistake, but mistakes do get made. We just have to try and hope for the best and move beyond it. Tell you what, a pilot only ever does it ONCE. I will admit, I ALMOST did it. Not skydiving. Was on an IFR training flight, I was 18. Went to Buffalo with my CFII, picked up my sister and her BF, took on a token load of fuel, flew home in light actual, shot the VOR approach, landed and taxied to hanger. Week later, dad fires it up to go to the fuel pump, 50 feet down the taxiway, engine quits. No gas.

I learned a VERY valuable lesson.

Things that do you NO GOOD:
Altitude above you
Fuel in the truck
Runway behind you
The airspeed you ain't got




scdrnr  (D License)

Jun 8, 2013, 6:23 PM
Post #24 of 41 (1488 views)
Shortcut
Re: [twatterpilot] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

twatterpilot wrote:

Emergency procedures:
Mixture RICH
Emergency boost pump ON
Fuel tank selector CHANGE
Flaps FIRST NOTCH
Speed BEST GLIDE

As someone with a bit of experience with Turbo 206's in jump ops, I have to say the above emergency procedure, while generally a universally accepted flow, can lead to problems. The boost pump on these airplanes has 2 settings- Hi and Low. Hi should only be used for purging for hot starts, and for vapor suppression at high power-high altitude. It can supply enough fuel for full power operation in the event of engine driven pump failure, but at any partial power setting it will flood the engine. If you follow the above emergency procedure after the engine quits from high power it WILL NOT restart until the boost pump is turned off. If you are making power and suddenly you are not the correct procedure is:

Switch tanks
boost on hi until indicating fuel pressure
boost off
mixture/throttle as necessary

It is also possible to be running the boost pump during climb up to altitude and forget to turn it off during descent. There is a microswitch on the throttle that is supposed to kick the flow rate down when power is reduced but they are often out of rig (most mechanics don't really know what it does!) and many pilots maintain a significant power on turbos during descent in a misguided attempt to control "shock cooling". The result is its easy to not notice the engine is flooded on a fast descent until you try to power up in the pattern.

Somewhere around '68-'70 Cessna very quietly changed the design of the switch to be momentary HI only- meaning that you have to hold the switch on to keep it in HI. They issued a non-mandatory service bulletin to switch the older ones, but never gave a detailed explanation as to why.

I dont know if this is the case here, I have no direct knowledge of what occurred in this case other than the article, but when I hear of a power failure in these planes, I ask the following questions in this order:

Have fuel?
fuel in tank selected?
boost pump position?

Yes there are other possibilities but they become increasingly rare. Again, I dont know what happened in this particular case, but call it a hunch- I wouldn't be surprised if investigation reveals that there was fuel in both tanks, engine continuity and compression confirms, and makes normal power on the test stand. The NTSB may be stumped, but I say boost pump. Seen it before. (icing near impossible with an injected turbo)

Glad the pilot is ok, 206 forks are weak relative to empty nose weight. If you hit a soft spot or a hole they flip pretty easy. Happens all the time....


twatterpilot  (A License)

Jun 8, 2013, 6:36 PM
Post #25 of 41 (1477 views)
Shortcut
Re: [scdrnr] 206 Crash - minor injury - Skydive Door County, Green Bay, WI - 1st June 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the reply.

I have never in my 25 years actually flown a turbo piston engine anything before, so it is interesting to see the ops difference.

The 206 I fly has the IO-520 in it, the boost pump switch is two in one. Left side of switch is normal boost pump, the red side is emergency boost pump.
"Normal" side on for TO and climb, hit both and open throttle for start priming. Both on for any emergency or fuel selector position change.

Sometimes don't make 100% sense since we have to lean on ground at idle to keep from running rough during prolonged taxi. But, If you don't put the pump on for TO and climb, the engine runs a bit hot. Extra fuel keeps ITT low and CHT controlled on ours.

Makes me wonder if ours is set up the same way with the throttle actuated micro switch.

All good points, Thanks!!!


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Incidents

 


Search for (options)