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Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013

 

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EOCS  (C License)

May 22, 2013, 3:30 AM
Post #1 of 33 (2488 views)
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Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 Can't Post

Intended hook turn was to go downwind to the left of the building seen on the inside video, however as the turn carried through and the pilot realized they may connect with the buildings and so turned more to avoid them. This resulted in early connection with the planet. Skydiver was unresponsive for the first minutes and came to over the next few minutes. Ambulance was taken to the hospital.

Stats:
Sabre2 135 WL 1.42
Pilot had 210 jumps at the time of the incident. 10th jump on this canopy after a downsize from Sabre2 150 and winter break.

Injuries:
Minor concussion, pelvic bone broken on the back side and dislocated from the front. No surgery needed due to the age and somewhat bendable/flexing pelvic bone back part. This will in time go back into place from the front and will heal in the back. Recovery time 8-10 weeks

This was not part of any club activity, this was a separate jump day organized by the jumpers themselves.

Pilot View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epJ2C-cMvZc
Ground View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXgbVhpCu-E

EDIT* Added information about wind direction


(This post was edited by EOCS on May 22, 2013, 4:26 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 22, 2013, 4:09 AM
Post #2 of 33 (2451 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Not really anything 'new' to learn here. Swooping with 200 total jumps, jumping a canopy at 1.4 WL with 200 jumps, swooping the canopy at 1.4 with 10 total jumps on the wing, blah, blah, blah.

My only comment is that those buildings had nothing to do with anything. I was expecting the video to be much different than it was, but that guy was nowhere near those buildings, and the only things those buildings represented was an 'excuse' for just flying a canopy straight into the ground.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
May 22, 2013, 4:15 AM
Post #3 of 33 (2441 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't look to me like he would have hit any buildings. When in a hole, stop digging! A prime example of being behind the curve, in the event of the turn going wrong, the pilot should have allowed an option to abort. Even if there was a chance of hitting the buildings the abort would have been to stop the turn early and go for the gap (although can't see if there are any fences on the video). The pilot also appears to continue turning on front riser which is only going to increase descent rate when already low. If the pilot truly wanted to avoid something, a flat turn on toggles would have been better.

Thanks for the video


gowlerk  (C 3196)

May 22, 2013, 4:58 AM
Post #4 of 33 (2387 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Another vid that should be a required viewing for all those in a hurry to down size and do cool landings. It's easy to make mistakes when you are at the edge of your abilities and pushing hard. It's been shown over and over that landing at the bottom of a dive is dangerous. Those who are good at it can show you the scars.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 22, 2013, 5:41 AM
Post #5 of 33 (2319 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Another vid that should be a required viewing for all those in a hurry to down size and do cool landings.

Along those lines, it's worth noting that many people don't consider a 135 to be 'small', a 1.4 WL to be 'high', or a Sabre2 135 to be 'high performance'. That said, you can still see the results of making a mistake when you get involved in swooping, even if you think you're making conservative choices with your canopy size/type.

What would more experience have gotten this jumper? Perhaps the judgment to not swoop a 'new-to-him' canopy with 10 jumps on the wing. Perhaps the judgment to start with a steady string of jumps with a smaller turn (like 90) before moving to higher degrees of rotation which would have given him a better grasp of the sight picture.

One of the biggest things in swooping is the sight picture. Nothing happens instantaneously, so you need to know what to do before you need to do it. That means knowing what it should look like further up the canopy ride, and making the right moves for where you're going to be further down the line. The faster you go, the more this becomes an issue.

Let's all remember that we've seen this scenario play out before. Let's also remember that this one happens to be on video (twice) and happens to have been reported here. I am 100% sure that there are dozens of similar instances that occur every year that are simply never reported/publicized, or result in less dramatic injuries, or don't have video coverage, and thus manage to stay off the radar. The point is that this is what happens when you push well past the limits of 'common sense'.

What is 'common sense'? I'll go so far as to say that anything more than .1 sq ft/per lb past Brian Germains WL chart is too far. He suggests 1.1 max for anything up to 199 jumps, 1.2 max up to 299 jumps, etc, and if you're anything north of +.1 of those numbers, you're asking for trouble.

If you're doing anything more than a straight in landing with less than 200 jumps, you're making a mistake. Anything more than a double-front approach with less than 300 jumps, again, big mistake. Anything more than a 90 with less than 400 jumps, big mistake. Doing any of the above (besides the straight-in, of course) with less than 50 jumps on your current wing, big mistake. North of 400 jumps, given a reasonable wing, WL, and with appropriate coaching/training (which means more than a local swooper giving you some tips) you might be OK to venture past 90s.

I don't care who you are, who your coach is, or how many classes/coached jumps you have, you're taking a significant risk with your life/health/welfare going past the above limits. You could make the bullshit argument that we're jumping out of planes, than in itself is a risk, but your argument would backfire. When the guy who feels like jumping out of a plane is reasonable and perfectly acceptable (me) is telling you what you're doing is risky, that's who you want to pay attention to. When little old ladies tell you you're taking a chance by driving at night, or going out in the rain, that's beyond reason. When a confirmed risk-taker is looking at you and shaking their head at your choices, take notice.


Napalm_C  (C 107470)

May 22, 2013, 6:34 AM
Post #6 of 33 (2252 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave - I just had to say that this is one of the best posts I've read. Well put! For lack of better words.


DougH  (D License)

May 22, 2013, 7:27 AM
Post #7 of 33 (2177 views)
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Re: [Napalm_C] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave said it all.

I bet all of this guys buddies were giving him high fives and encouragement right up to this landing.

"Your swoops and getting good man..."
"Nice landing bro..."
"Here are some swoop tips"

Maybe you should have told him to cool his jets instead of encouraging him.


DocPop  (C License)

May 22, 2013, 9:23 AM
Post #8 of 33 (2043 views)
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Re: [DougH] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be interested in seeing the "swoops" leading up to this incident.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was planing out high repeatedly and decided to do something about it. Well, he did.


yoink

May 22, 2013, 10:17 AM
Post #9 of 33 (1959 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hands straight up all the way into the ground.

Crazy

This isn't simply a case of the wing being beyond him - he's never taken the time to develop the experience that lets him know when he's low.

There was absolutely no reason I could see to continue that turn.

He's lucky to get away with an 8-10 week healing time. Hope he heals fast and learns for the next time.

Edit: From Daves post - people should look at the outside video when they're thinking about their first performance canopy - 150 and below. That 135 is diving like a mutha... It's NOT a conservative choice.

still - nothing new to be learned here. Unsure


(This post was edited by yoink on May 22, 2013, 10:20 AM)


FB1609  (C 1409)

May 22, 2013, 10:22 AM
Post #10 of 33 (1947 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka wrote:
If you're doing anything more than a straight in landing with less than 200 jumps, you're making a mistake. Anything more than a double-front approach with less than 300 jumps, again, big mistake. Anything more than a 90 with less than 400 jumps, big mistake. Doing any of the above (besides the straight-in, of course) with less than 50 jumps on your current wing, big mistake. North of 400 jumps, given a reasonable wing, WL, and with appropriate coaching/training (which means more than a local swooper giving you some tips) you might be OK to venture past 90s.

I agree 100% as a guideline, but I'm really not sure numbers is an accurate way of defining skill, obviously some people are terrible at certain things while others can be exceptional. Swooping is the same, a moron with 1500 jumps may be far more dangerous than a skilled learner/talent at 400 jumps. So I guess there's no way to set guidelines any better atm really except on a personal professional coaching level.


(This post was edited by FB1609 on May 22, 2013, 10:28 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

May 22, 2013, 10:50 AM
Post #11 of 33 (1891 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When a confirmed risk-taker is looking at you and shaking their head at your choices, take notice.


Excellent post Dave...The line of yours that I quoted above bears repeating. That kinda says it all in a nutshell!!


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

May 22, 2013, 10:51 AM
Post #12 of 33 (1891 views)
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Re: [FB1609] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the way to approach that is to say that the minimums are that for the talented and above average -- if you're not as talented, it should take longer than the minimums. Just as 200 jumps is considered to be the minimum for camera and wingsuit, if you're heads-up and otherwise squared away.

But it never ends up being treated that way, does it.

Wendy P.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 22, 2013, 10:57 AM
Post #13 of 33 (1880 views)
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Re: [FB1609] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

  The numbers I mentioned were all minimums, there are of course no maximums of any kind. Nobody is required to downsize or swoop.

With that in mind, no amount of talent can trump inexperience and a lack of airtime. You need to be 'good' and 'natural' with a canopy before you start diving it towards the ground at a low altitude. With the speeds and consequences involved, you need to be quick, accurate and smooth with your inputs, and they need to be an almost sub-conscious response to a given situation. That level of performance is just not possible without several hundred jumps overall, and a good number on a given wing.

In terms of idiots who shouldn't be swooping with 1500 jumps, that's where the good sense that got them to 1500 jumps should kick in and steer them away from it all.

People need to remember that swooping and skydiving are two different things. The USPA will call you an 'expert' jumper with 500 jumps, while the same amount of experience in swooping terms is more or less just the price of entry to that world.


oozzee  (D License)

May 22, 2013, 11:06 AM
Post #14 of 33 (1863 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

ridiculous front riser for turn for someone with 200--even 500 jumps...
the experienced jumpers and the S&TA should be ashamed of them selves for allowing this to happen..he could've been killed
No madskills....just bad skills...
indifference..no-one cares anymore...
the sport of skydiving has taken a very disturbing deviation in the last few years


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 22, 2013, 1:28 PM
Post #15 of 33 (1726 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure what happened before the footage shown in your post, but that was nothing more than a simple failure to check the descent.

Carnage earned. Unsure


GooniesKid

May 22, 2013, 1:49 PM
Post #16 of 33 (1676 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

oh damn! Hope the dude's ok and makes a full recovery.

But seriously man, what's the point of swooping besides the cool factor.

If it gets me the prospects....well hmmmm, if swooping gets me the prospects then perhaps i will entertain the idea of swooping.


DocPop  (C License)

May 22, 2013, 1:53 PM
Post #17 of 33 (1666 views)
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Re: [GooniesKid] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

GooniesKid wrote:
But seriously man, what's the point of swooping besides the cool factor.

If that's a serious question, for some of us swooping is the main reason we skydive.

You go have your fun doing RW or wingsuiting or whatever - for me there is nothing so exhilarating as a well-executed high-performance landing.

It is a huge challenge and the perfect swoop is so elusive.

In some respects it's like golf - but with a death penalty if you go too many over par.


GooniesKid

May 22, 2013, 2:20 PM
Post #18 of 33 (1626 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

DocPop wrote:
GooniesKid wrote:
But seriously man, what's the point of swooping besides the cool factor.

If that's a serious question, for some of us swooping is the main reason we skydive.

You go have your fun doing RW or wingsuiting or whatever - for me there is nothing so exhilarating as a well-executed high-performance landing.

It is a huge challenge and the perfect swoop is so elusive.

In some respects it's like golf - but with a death penalty if you go too many over par.

I think the above reasons are valid reasons.
But c'mon bro, you do it for the prospects too right? Tongue






Fast  (D 28237)

May 23, 2013, 8:01 AM
Post #21 of 33 (1251 views)
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Re: [yoink] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
Hands straight up all the way into the ground.

Crazy

That's the most frustrating part to me. We are looking at a complete lack of experience, no ability to recognize the ground coming up, likely no instruction given prior to this.

I mean, I don't really support teaching people to get out ahead of themselves skill wise, but when someone starts to do this it really comes down to a few options (from worst to best). Ignore it and wait for them to pound in, educate them, restrict them, restrict them and educate them (with an emphasis on the last part).

This won't ever stop happening until we can find a constructive way to get these new swoopers to slow down without getting defensive and saying "fuck you old guy, I'm better than everyone".

I really think that is what the majority of our efforts here should be getting directed at. How do we teach a person who wants to go fast but needs to go slow and keep them interested and cooperative.


DocPop  (C License)

May 23, 2013, 10:28 AM
Post #22 of 33 (1131 views)
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Re: [Fast] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Fast wrote:
yoink wrote:
Hands straight up all the way into the ground.

Crazy

That's the most frustrating part to me. We are looking at a complete lack of experience, no ability to recognize the ground coming up, likely no instruction given prior to this.

I mean, I don't really support teaching people to get out ahead of themselves skill wise, but when someone starts to do this it really comes down to a few options (from worst to best). Ignore it and wait for them to pound in, educate them, restrict them, restrict them and educate them (with an emphasis on the last part).

This won't ever stop happening until we can find a constructive way to get these new swoopers to slow down without getting defensive and saying "fuck you old guy, I'm better than everyone".

I really think that is what the majority of our efforts here should be getting directed at. How do we teach a person who wants to go fast but needs to go slow and keep them interested and cooperative.

Nailed it, IMO.

This needs its own thread.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 23, 2013, 11:09 AM
Post #23 of 33 (1099 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

DocPop wrote:
Fast wrote:
yoink wrote:
Hands straight up all the way into the ground.

Crazy

That's the most frustrating part to me. We are looking at a complete lack of experience, no ability to recognize the ground coming up, likely no instruction given prior to this.

I mean, I don't really support teaching people to get out ahead of themselves skill wise, but when someone starts to do this it really comes down to a few options (from worst to best). Ignore it and wait for them to pound in, educate them, restrict them, restrict them and educate them (with an emphasis on the last part).

This won't ever stop happening until we can find a constructive way to get these new swoopers to slow down without getting defensive and saying "fuck you old guy, I'm better than everyone".

I really think that is what the majority of our efforts here should be getting directed at. How do we teach a person who wants to go fast but needs to go slow and keep them interested and cooperative.

Nailed it, IMO.

This needs its own thread.

You should start it Doc, you've seen both sides of the problem up close...what's your input in that regard...and yeah I'm serious.

I don't swoop, I see the problem but my input isn't nearly as relative as someone like you would have.


DocPop  (C License)

May 23, 2013, 12:11 PM
Post #24 of 33 (1029 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

airtwardo wrote:

You should start it Doc, you've seen both sides of the problem up close...what's your input in that regard...and yeah I'm serious.

I don't swoop, I see the problem but my input isn't nearly as relative as someone like you would have.

Thanks 'Twardo.

I started a thread/poll in Safety & Training.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

May 23, 2013, 1:28 PM
Post #25 of 33 (968 views)
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Re: [GooniesKid] Injury - Low Turn Incident - May 7th 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But c'mon bro, you do it for the prospects too right?

Yup, female skydivers will be busting down the doors to get in your pants. We aren't here for the skydives, we're here to worship you awesome guys.


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