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Hooked it low

 

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skydive435  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 6:09 PM
Post #1 of 28 (4193 views)
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Hooked it low Can't Post

Yep. Took my jvx 99 loaded @ 2.4 abit to low. Bailed from rears too toggles over asphalt headed towards dirt after a 270 from around 800'... I know... I f'd up...scuffed my left knee up. (Just asphalt rash) my right leg i took a chunk of meat out below knee and a smaller one on top of foot, small fracture but nothing shattered. It did tear i think its called the patella tendon...
Im more bummed because I felt i have been really advancing and doing well. Over 1300 jumps the past 3 1/2 yrs. not sure how i should feel (obviously alive is good) ... Just SUPER bummed, frustrated, mixed emotions... first major injury so looking for some advice on what i should expect , maybe anyone had this type of injury the time table for recovery (in their experience)
But ill throw this out there. Don't be a dick and get on here and bash. Just trying to get some real life advice that you've been through. We all know swooping has its risks, and i have always accepted it. Just looking for some knowledge and advice from guys that have been injured and how they were able to deal with it.
I keep beating myself up and questioning it over and over and over.
Did get some great advice from a top canopy pilot. Just seeing what everyone else thinks.

(If your a large canopy flyer trolling looking to vent and bash , punch yourself in the nuts :))
Ill post a few pics. The one where i have both feet on ground is just around impact time. Maybe going 35-45 mph... I hit then got throw a good distance. You can compare yellow strips. And i know asphalt is not ideal. So skip it.:)
Thanks a lot guy...


ridebmxbikes  (D 33588)

Mar 27, 2013, 6:48 PM
Post #2 of 28 (4106 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

Whoa man! That sucks, sorry to hear about that! Hope you have a quick recovery! Only advice is dont do it again!


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 6:51 PM
Post #3 of 28 (4103 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

Bro you have twice the experience as me so I definitely won't bash. I do jump a "big" 136 so hopefully my post won't be worthless to you although I can't comment about your canopy, WL, or anything.

I did however have 4 month or so layoff after I decided it would be a good idea to swoop in turbulent conditions and had what is called a SLAP tear in my left shoulder when my canopy bucked and yanked my shoulder almost out of socket. I continued to jump for awhile, but ended up requiring surgery. It was particularly bad because it included a tear of the biceps tendon.

MY experience is layoffs suck ass!

Listen to the doctors. Don't skimp on the rehab (if it is necessary in your situation) and don't try to come back earlier then they advise even if you feel okay. Not a lot of docs will like to say it is ok to jump again, but they should be willing to say when it is safe to return to sports.

When you do come back it might be a bit unnerving your first jump. It was for me at least, but with your experience it might be less of a deal for you. It is like riding a bike though. I took it easy with swooping for awhile knowing I was uncurrent and all was well.

The hardest part for me was dealing with the depression of not being able to jump. Sat around at home on pain meds for awhile but realized quickly they were making my depression worse. I put away the pills and started hanging out at the DZ even though I couldn't jump and it helped a lot just being around my buddies again.

I am back in the air, but my particular injury is a nasty one. They say it could take a full year before my shoulder feels "normal" again. It is strong enough to jump and stuff. I have no worries about that, but I still get what I call "ghost pains" in the area. For awhile after surgery my shoulder actually felt worse than before the surgery. I was pissed, confused, and scared. Most of the time the injury I had ends baseball pitchers careers from what I have been told. They just never get back to speed and strength.

I realize my injury is totally different than yours but layoffs all the same, suck ass.

Keep your chin up bro. You bailed from your rears and saved a much worse fate.

I think as we get more competent we start to ignore little signs and warnings that we shouldn't. I know I did. I had no business yanking on those fronts with how bumpy it was, but I did anyway because I had gotten away with it before. Lesson learned for me. I will try to remember to live to swoop another day next time.

Heal fast man.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 27, 2013, 7:07 PM
Post #4 of 28 (4078 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

It is an inevitability of swooping. I don't know a single pilot (in the top groups) who hasn't skipped at least once.

It's why I really only like to swoop over water. Not because water will save me from a detonation (it wont) but minor 'skips' end up being a bruised ego most of the time.

The best advice I can give is: Don't take it lightly.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Mar 27, 2013, 7:09 PM)


skydive435  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 7:10 PM
Post #5 of 28 (4069 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Bro you have twice the experience as me so I definitely won't bash. I do jump a "big" 136 so hopefully my post won't be worthless to you although I can't comment about your canopy, WL, or anything.

I did however have 4 month or so layoff after I decided it would be a good idea to swoop in turbulent conditions and had what is called a SLAP tear in my left shoulder when my canopy bucked and yanked my shoulder almost out of socket. I continued to jump for awhile, but ended up requiring surgery. It was particularly bad because it included a tear of the biceps tendon.

MY experience is layoffs suck ass!

Listen to the doctors. Don't skimp on the rehab (if it is necessary in your situation) and don't try to come back earlier then they advise even if you feel okay. Not a lot of docs will like to say it is ok to jump again, but they should be willing to say when it is safe to return to sports.

When you do come back it might be a bit unnerving your first jump. It was for me at least, but with your experience it might be less of a deal for you. It is like riding a bike though. I took it easy with swooping for awhile knowing I was uncurrent and all was well.

The hardest part for me was dealing with the depression of not being able to jump. Sat around at home on pain meds for awhile but realized quickly they were making my depression worse. I put away the pills and started hanging out at the DZ even though I couldn't jump and it helped a lot just being around my buddies again.

I am back in the air, but my particular injury is a nasty one. They say it could take a full year before my shoulder feels "normal" again. It is strong enough to jump and stuff. I have no worries about that, but I still get what I call "ghost pains" in the area. For awhile after surgery my shoulder actually felt worse than before the surgery. I was pissed, confused, and scared. Most of the time the injury I had ends baseball pitchers careers from what I have been told. They just never get back to speed and strength.

I realize my injury is totally different than yours but layoffs all the same, suck ass.

Keep your chin up bro. You bailed from your rears and saved a much worse fate.

I think as we get more competent we start to ignore little signs and warnings that we shouldn't. I know I did. I had no business yanking on those fronts with how bumpy it was, but I did anyway because I had gotten away with it before. Lesson learned for me. I will try to remember to live to swoop another day next time.

Heal fast man.

Hey thanks for the run down. Hope your doing well now. Thanks again for taking the time to throw something down. :)


cstaylor71  (A License)

Mar 27, 2013, 8:24 PM
Post #6 of 28 (4026 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

When I was stunting my sportbike with my buddies we had a saying. Its not if you are gonna crash, its when..... I think it relates to skydiving just as much. When I didnt push the limits, motorcyle riding felt safe and controlled. However, as I started racing on tracks and learning stunts, certain points of the progression were nuts. You cant push the limits until you surpass your current limit. Our mental ability to process and respond to new situations takes time, which most of us understand, we get hurt when we inadvertently push it further than we can handle. Sometimes its by accident, sometimes because of ego. After every accident or injury the most valuable lesson we can learn, comes from honest recollection and reflection. Sometimes I wonder, is there a safe way to push the limits? The only answer ive come up with is, only if we honestly know and evaluate our own limits.
My ramble wasnt imteded for you, but I felt compelled to reflect by the recent events...
Heal quick, blue skys.


champu  (D 28302)

Mar 27, 2013, 9:47 PM
Post #7 of 28 (3986 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

The worst I've had is road rash from skidding to a stop using my shins on dried, low-cut, desert weeds while wearing swoop shorts. For those in arable areas: think toughness of corn right after it's been cut, only much smaller and more densely spaced.

It sucked. I didn't want to swoop for a while. But it gave me time to think about things besides just sight pictures, set ups, and rates of turn.

I don't want to be the guy that over-analyzes your photos, but I see a lot of buildings and asphalt. When you get back to it, I would scope the property for places you could set up a course that would be a little more forgiving, both if you make contact with the ground a little sooner than planned, or if you have to stop turning a little sooner than planned.


skydive435  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 10:27 PM
Post #8 of 28 (3976 views)
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Re: [champu] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The worst I've had is road rash from skidding to a stop using my shins on dried, low-cut, desert weeds while wearing swoop shorts. For those in arable areas: think toughness of corn right after it's been cut, only much smaller and more densely spaced.

It sucked. I didn't want to swoop for a while. But it gave me time to think about things besides just sight pictures, set ups, and rates of turn.

I don't want to be the guy that over-analyzes your photos, but I see a lot of buildings and asphalt. When you get back to it, I would scope the property for places you could set up a course that would be a little more forgiving, both if you make contact with the ground a little sooner than planned, or if you have to stop turning a little sooner than planned.

Ya between runway & taxi way is straight dirt. Ive swoop over that area hundreds of times. But definitely will reconsider a different spot. Thanks


AdD  (D License)

Mar 28, 2013, 3:51 AM
Post #9 of 28 (3864 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

It looks like you still have quite a bit of roll angle in the wing very low. Flatten up that wing higher up and everthing gets better.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 28, 2013, 4:51 AM
Post #10 of 28 (3824 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Since I am 'that guy', I'm going to stick to what I know and be 'that guy'.

Three months ago you were posting about wanting to start using your rears, on a X-fire 119 at under 2.0. Now you're on a JVX at 2.4. See the problem? Maybe pushing a little too hard?

Part of the 'mixed emotions' you're having is that you found you that you're not bulletproof. I'm sure things have been a ball up to this point, but it all came crashing down (no pun intended, I swear) when you hit the ground.

I know 1300 jumps sounds like a world of experience to you, but it's really just a foot in the door in terms of swooping a JVX at 2.4.

One thing to keep in mind is that as your WL goes up, so does the net effect of a downsize. So when you downsize .5 all at once, and it also happens to be up above 2.0, you're biting off a big hunk of shit.

A simple thing like not swooping over buildings or hard surfaces is something you should have known well before getting on that wing and that WL. I can only assume that the area you've made the mistake of swooping '100s of times' is close to the hanger, and it's no coincidence that there was a photog standing right there. Ever heard the phrase, 'Here, hold my beer and watch this....'.

Use your downtime/recovery time to really take stock of your situation. You've put yourself pretty far out at the end of the spear, and there's not a lot of 'wiggle room' out there. Just for reference, I have 5 times the jumps and 6 times the time-in-sport as you, and I jump my Velo at a lower WL.


matt002

Mar 28, 2013, 6:06 AM
Post #11 of 28 (3773 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you finalised in you head exactly what was the cause of your accident?
Too low is just to vague to be able to have confidence that it won't happen again.
Part of what you should do is re-evaluate what you thought you knew about yourself, that will suck but you need to do it and figure out what you will change to make sure it doesn't happen again.
if all you can come up with is that you were a little low, then perhaps a lack of experience is what caused it and may well cause it again in the future.
Think about what was different, we're you out of position trying to get back onto a safe line, keen to impress people on the ground trying to save a bad swoop so delayed bailing earlier? Being honest with yourself will be hard, you will have to question the belief that you were progressing well, truth hurts the ego hard. I've been there.


skydive435  (D License)

Mar 28, 2013, 7:13 AM
Post #12 of 28 (3718 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since I am 'that guy', I'm going to stick to what I know and be 'that guy'.

Three months ago you were posting about wanting to start using your rears, on a X-fire 119 at under 2.0. Now you're on a JVX at 2.4. See the problem? Maybe pushing a little too hard?

Part of the 'mixed emotions' you're having is that you found you that you're not bulletproof. I'm sure things have been a ball up to this point, but it all came crashing down (no pun intended, I swear) when you hit the ground.

I know 1300 jumps sounds like a world of experience to you, but it's really just a foot in the door in terms of swooping a JVX at 2.4.

One thing to keep in mind is that as your WL goes up, so does the
net effect of a downsize. So when you downsize .5 all at once, and it also happens to be up above 2.0, you're biting off a big hunk of shit.

A simple thing like not swooping over buildings or hard surfaces is something you should have known well before getting on that wing and that WL. I can only assume that the area you've made the mistake of swooping '100s of times' is close to the hanger, and it's no coincidence that there was a photog standing right there. Ever heard the phrase, 'Here, hold my beer and watch this....'.

Use your downtime/recovery time to really take stock of your situation. You've put yourself pretty far out at the end of the spear, and there's not a lot of 'wiggle room' out there. Just for reference, I have 5 times the jumps and 6 times the time-in-sport as you, and I jump my Velo at a lower WL.

Put a bunch of jumps down with coaching since then. Flying on rears was goin fine. I actually brought my swoop s up about 200+ ' or so higher than the xfire. But i see your point. Have lots of quality jumps in a short period. Just held it abit too long before i knew it was time to bail. The knowledge i have learned luckily helped me realize what not to do as in keep on rears. Had another canopy course in May. But i was flyin the jvx confidently and just starting to feel at home. Wanted to put lots more on it and keep advancing.ill get through itband fly it again...


skydive435  (D License)

Mar 28, 2013, 7:16 AM
Post #13 of 28 (3715 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since I am 'that guy', I'm going to stick to what I know and be 'that guy'.

Three months ago you were posting about wanting to start using your rears, on a X-fire 119 at under 2.0. Now you're on a JVX at 2.4. See the problem? Maybe pushing a little too hard?

Part of the 'mixed emotions' you're having is that you found you that you're not bulletproof. I'm sure things have been a ball up to this point, but it all came crashing down (no pun intended, I swear) when you hit the ground.

I know 1300 jumps sounds like a world of experience to you, but it's really just a foot in the door in terms of swooping a JVX at 2.4.

One thing to keep in mind is that as your WL goes up, so does the net effect of a downsize. So when you downsize .5 all at once, and it also happens to be up above 2.0, you're biting off a big hunk of shit.

A simple thing like not swooping over buildings or hard surfaces is something you should have known well before getting on that wing and that WL. I can only assume that the area you've made the mistake of swooping '100s of times' is close to the hanger, and it's no coincidence that there was a photog standing right there. Ever heard the phrase, 'Here, hold my beer and watch this....'.

Use your downtime/recovery time to really take stock of your situation. You've put yourself pretty far out at the end of the spear, and there's not a lot of 'wiggle room' out there. Just for reference, I have 5 times the jumps and 6 times the time-in-sport as you, and I jump my Velo at a lower WL.

With all respect. You dont have aton of jumps for 17+ yrs in the sport. So as far as numbers go i was above average and moved down when i and other felt it was right. Guys with 10,000 jumps make mistakes. Im just trying to figure a few things out. I guess i could not reach out and say screw it...


freeflyn  (D License)

Mar 28, 2013, 9:28 AM
Post #14 of 28 (3662 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

There are two types of experience in skydiving, number of jumps and time in sport. The number of jumps is not always an indicator of skill or knowledge but time in sport gives you a potential insite into the amount of scenarios one has experienced, witnessed, and/or discussed. This time can allow someone greater insight into situations and thus allowing them to provide more thorough advice to younger and/or less experienced pilots. As for Dave's advice I agree with it. This is a sport that when you stop listening and learning you start getting injured or die.


skydive435  (D License)

Mar 28, 2013, 10:30 AM
Post #15 of 28 (3619 views)
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Re: [freeflyn] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are two types of experience in skydiving, number of jumps and time in sport. The number of jumps is not always an indicator of skill or knowledge but time in sport gives you a potential insite into the amount of scenarios one has experienced, witnessed, and/or discussed. This time can allow someone greater insight into situations and thus allowing them to provide more thorough advice to younger and/or less experienced pilots. As for Dave's advice I agree with it. This is a sport that when you stop listening and learning you start getting injured or die.

Totally agree


AggieDave  (D License)

Mar 28, 2013, 11:03 AM
Post #16 of 28 (3596 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

Coaching helps teach you skill. Time in the saddle teaches you decision making and the experience lets you know when it will or won't work. All the skill in the world means nothing with out the experience to make it work right.

The moral of the story is even if your skill set keeps increasing, you have to remember to limit your behavior to account for your lack of experience. I'm glad you weren't more badly injured.



Like Ian said, everyone hits, how bad and where depends on your choices. I used to have a few different turns I would use. Mostly though I would vary between my "at the DZ" turn and my "competition" turn. The difference between the two had to do with a few factors, but the short version is that the competition turn was slightly lower and much more aggressive. That turn was only done over water and thank god for the time I bounced off the pond in Colorado, caught a windblade, collapsed my canopy and rotated like a giant slingshot back over and into the water HARD. It run my bell and damaged my rig, but I walked away from it thanks to the water.


f94sbu  (D 16017)

Mar 28, 2013, 8:20 PM
Post #17 of 28 (3437 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Put a bunch of jumps down with coaching since then. Flying on rears was goin fine. I actually brought my swoop s up about 200+ ' or so higher than the xfire. But i see your point. Have lots of quality jumps in a short period. Just held it abit too long before i knew it was time to bail. The knowledge i have learned luckily helped me realize what not to do as in keep on rears. Had another canopy course in May. But i was flyin the jvx confidently and just starting to feel at home. Wanted to put lots more on it and keep advancing.ill get through itband fly it again...

One of the pitfalls with coaching is that it actually gets in a position where you are performing beyond your survival skills. As a coach, it is relatively easy to tell someone how to do a perfect swoop, use the rears etc. (after all, it is all just simple mechanics). As a student, it is also quite easy to follow these instructions and perform reasonably well. What's missing from this equation is that neither coaches nor students are prefect. Sometimes we screw up and it is in those situations that the student is left with their (sometimes very limited) own survival skills. There is nothing in the world that the coach can do when the shit hits the fan other than to hope that the student will bail out, forget about the perfect swoop and spend 100% of their attention on surviving.
Your story is very similar to others that I have been told where people are surprised why they bounced, after all, they were doing so well, their coaches told them that they were talented, they were using rears, smaller canopies etc. But what they were missing was the ability to tell when things were going wrong and how to handle it. One of they key factors here is the size of your wing. When shit hits the fan, having a larger wing gives you more time to react and the wing is pulling out of the dive faster, both on its own and because of your input. Many people are capable of performing very well on smaller wings, but before you go there, make sure that you have learned the hard lessons on your bigger wing. If the first time you are low is under a 75sq ft canopy, loaded @ 2.9, the likelihood of successful outcome is very low. Thats why experienced coaches insist on keeping people on larger wings longer than people would like to. Not because they cannot perform with the smaller one, but because they need to learn the hard lessons on the bigger one. As a coach, I can only explain to you what skills you need to have to survive a botched swoop but you will have to learn how to apply them yourself. And when you do, give yourself the best possible conditions. In your case, if you have not been low on your new wing, swooping it over the asphalt is probably not a good yourself a suitable playground to learn to make mistakes. (I know nothing of your progression, I am just using it as an example of how you can give yourself the best learning opportunities while still being able to walk away from the close calls).
I hope that this gives you some ideas how to train to become a safer pilot so that you have larger margins when explore the performance of your wings.

regards,
Stefan


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 29, 2013, 4:18 AM
Post #18 of 28 (3308 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Have lots of quality jumps in a short period

Put a bunch of jumps down with coaching

as far as numbers go i was above average and moved down when i and other felt it was right

i was flyin the jvx confidently and just starting to feel at home

Look at the tone of what you said.

I've said it a million times, the trick with knowing when anyone is 'ready' for anything in skydiving, be it swooping, big-ways, etc, is that you don't know for sure until it's over.

So let's correct your statements, and add that you thought you were ready for the JVX, and that you thought you made 'high quality' jumps (whatever those are). The events as they transpired seems to show otherwise.

In terms of jumps, if you don't think that 5500 jumps is enough to be giving advice, or anyway below 'average', I'm not sure what planet you're from. So you have 1300 jumps in 3 1/2 years, which averages out to 371 per year. I have 5500+ in 18 years which averages out to 305 jumps per year. Do you know what the 'practical' difference is between those two? It's not the 66 jumps per year average, it's the 4200 more jumps and 15 more years in the sport.

I started flying 100sq ft canopies when I had 300 jumps in year 3 of skydiving. I would suggest that 5000+ jumps over 15 years on small canopies might give me a place from which to speak. I would also suggest that the fact that you flew yourself into the hard-paved ground from 800ft, under your newly accuired, ultra high-performace, massivly downsized canopy gives me a place from which to speak.

You can get mad at me for pointing out the obvious, or you can get mad at me for the way I pointed it out. The solution isn't to get mad, the solution is not to act in such a way that can be characterized as such. If you weren't pushing it in every way possible, and defending your actions with statements that make it appear that you think you or your situatuion are 'special', and that the common knowledge about these things don't apply to you, then I wouldn't have anything to say.

Like it or not, nothing I said is untrue and nothing I said is anything but 100% your doing. That's the real lesson here.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Mar 29, 2013, 4:21 AM)


Bitswd

Mar 29, 2013, 4:55 AM
Post #19 of 28 (3294 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

I was told there would be free food served here. I was dooped...Most will learn that everything does not need to be logged ...Wink


Dutton  (D 15542)

Mar 29, 2013, 6:21 AM
Post #20 of 28 (3275 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave Lepka's Kung Fu is stronger than your Kung Fu.


He will rape your fields and pillage your women.


Just.

Walk.

Away...


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Mar 29, 2013, 8:15 AM
Post #21 of 28 (3236 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Since I am 'that guy', I'm going to stick to what I know and be 'that guy'.

Three months ago you were posting about wanting to start using your rears, on a X-fire 119 at under 2.0. Now you're on a JVX at 2.4. See the problem? Maybe pushing a little too hard?

Part of the 'mixed emotions' you're having is that you found you that you're not bulletproof. I'm sure things have been a ball up to this point, but it all came crashing down (no pun intended, I swear) when you hit the ground.

I know 1300 jumps sounds like a world of experience to you, but it's really just a foot in the door in terms of swooping a JVX at 2.4.

One thing to keep in mind is that as your WL goes up, so does the net effect of a downsize. So when you downsize .5 all at once, and it also happens to be up above 2.0, you're biting off a big hunk of shit.

A simple thing like not swooping over buildings or hard surfaces is something you should have known well before getting on that wing and that WL. I can only assume that the area you've made the mistake of swooping '100s of times' is close to the hanger, and it's no coincidence that there was a photog standing right there. Ever heard the phrase, 'Here, hold my beer and watch this....'.

Use your downtime/recovery time to really take stock of your situation. You've put yourself pretty far out at the end of the spear, and there's not a lot of 'wiggle room' out there. Just for reference, I have 5 times the jumps and 6 times the time-in-sport as you, and I jump my Velo at a lower WL.

With all respect. You dont have aton of jumps for 17+ yrs in the sport. So as far as numbers go i was above average and moved down when i and other felt it was right. Guys with 10,000 jumps make mistakes. Im just trying to figure a few things out. I guess i could not reach out and say screw it...

You need to never say anythng like this again! Your experience is beginner at best compared to Dave's!


(This post was edited by Rstanley0312 on Mar 29, 2013, 8:15 AM)


Whamie  (No License)

Mar 29, 2013, 11:41 AM
Post #22 of 28 (3143 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Since I am 'that guy', I'm going to stick to what I know and be 'that guy'.

Three months ago you were posting about wanting to start using your rears, on a X-fire 119 at under 2.0. Now you're on a JVX at 2.4. See the problem? Maybe pushing a little too hard?

Part of the 'mixed emotions' you're having is that you found you that you're not bulletproof. I'm sure things have been a ball up to this point, but it all came crashing down (no pun intended, I swear) when you hit the ground.

I know 1300 jumps sounds like a world of experience to you, but it's really just a foot in the door in terms of swooping a JVX at 2.4.

One thing to keep in mind is that as your WL goes up, so does the net effect of a downsize. So when you downsize .5 all at once, and it also happens to be up above 2.0, you're biting off a big hunk of shit.

A simple thing like not swooping over buildings or hard surfaces is something you should have known well before getting on that wing and that WL. I can only assume that the area you've made the mistake of swooping '100s of times' is close to the hanger, and it's no coincidence that there was a photog standing right there. Ever heard the phrase, 'Here, hold my beer and watch this....'.

Use your downtime/recovery time to really take stock of your situation. You've put yourself pretty far out at the end of the spear, and there's not a lot of 'wiggle room' out there. Just for reference, I have 5 times the jumps and 6 times the time-in-sport as you, and I jump my Velo at a lower WL.

With all respect. You dont have aton of jumps for 17+ yrs in the sport. So as far as numbers go i was above average and moved down when i and other felt it was right. Guys with 10,000 jumps make mistakes. Im just trying to figure a few things out. I guess i could not reach out and say screw it...

uh oh..he went there Shocked


jjudd  (D 31065)

Mar 30, 2013, 12:49 PM
Post #23 of 28 (2915 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I started flying 100sq ft canopies when I had 300 jumps in year 3 of skydiving. I would suggest that 5000+ jumps over 15 years on small canopies might give me a place from which to speak. I would also suggest that the fact that you flew yourself into the hard-paved ground from 800ft, under your newly accuired, ultra high-performace, massivly downsized canopy gives me a place from which to speak.

Not to knock on you Dave but what you just said shares the idea that yes someone with 300 jumps can and has successfully been flying small canopies with low experience in the beginning. I know your quite experienced i don't think anyone would argue that based on time and jumps.


I think we all walk a fine line and either learn from our mistakes or we pay the ultimate price if our ego is too big to step aside evaluate and correct our current actions. Thus waivers for all in this sport. Its highly dangerous period.


I progressed quickly not quite as fast as you or the op to a 2.4wl but learned from my mistakes and i agree with you that its good to learn from mistakes on a bigger wing.
Im certainly glad i did then and didnt break myself


However the only way to police that is through the manufactures for new wings, and dzo's or people at the dz for used wings who simply say no you cant jump this and take it from them if they acquire one.

Thats the only way people are going to learn on a bigger wing in most cases. We have a young generation that hasn't seen enough trauma yet. On a big wing still they may not understand what they're doing and hit the ground without proper teaching. Rather then death just seriously messed up.

Thus coaching but how do you help someone who is already way over their head and wont listen to you anyway. If they do still in the end the decision they make at any second effects what happens to them, yet your still liable.

Its a lost cause via online because here your now dealing with the person thats in the same shoes you were when you started and is going to make it or not based on their choices. Hopefully they take the advice but if someones given a negative usually they get defensive in general.

Usually they are here because they hurt themselves or already dont listen to others that have told them this already in person. Thus the cycle goes on.

A serious training program is needed dedicated to those wanting to progress, better yet make it a mandatory course before anything over a 1.4 wingloading for any jumper to make a change. And another course for the next step above that.

The B license course is great but barely works on a proper pattern and accurately landing your canopy still which is taught from the start of aff but still not understood at that point. Lets face it 5 jumps for a course isnt enough other than to check a few boxes. Im talking a serious school for those that want to fly anything remotely high performance.

Like an aff school teaches basic free fall only we can only teach basic canopy flight in such a short time and even then most knowledge gained in this sport comes from long conversations and dedicated time under a wing where the student ultimately makes or breaks it.

It all starts with USPA and the higher up's in our sport to make a change other then if a individual simply changes their behavior. Unfortunately in society we need supervision nowadays to not do stupid things. More videos of fatalities mandatory during aff would help instill this. Brutal yet a visual learner now get its and things click hopefully. Until you see someone hit there is no respect and invincibility is felt.

Lastly Ill add i never think i've seen or learned it all and know tomorrow ill still probably make mistakes. once you think otherwise your in a bad spot to recognize when you've made a mistake a more are likely to follow leading to a severe injury or death


(This post was edited by jjudd on Mar 30, 2013, 12:52 PM)


jjudd  (D 31065)

Mar 30, 2013, 1:00 PM
Post #24 of 28 (2907 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there video to these photos from yours or others perspective. Please share if so. 800 feet is a pretty adequate height for a 270 in most cases in my experience at a 2.4

What did you change in your turn out of curiosity?

Lastly like everyone one said its not a matter of if but when you will touch down even if your ultra conservative and bail when in doubt. Theres no room for our human error. Water is good, concrete less desirable


(This post was edited by jjudd on Mar 30, 2013, 1:04 PM)


selwynj  (D License)

Mar 30, 2013, 1:08 PM
Post #25 of 28 (2903 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Hooked it low [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Have lots of quality jumps in a short period

Put a bunch of jumps down with coaching

as far as numbers go i was above average and moved down when i and other felt it was right

i was flyin the jvx confidently and just starting to feel at home

Look at the tone of what you said.

I've said it a million times, the trick with knowing when anyone is 'ready' for anything in skydiving, be it swooping, big-ways, etc, is that you don't know for sure until it's over.

So let's correct your statements, and add that you thought you were ready for the JVX, and that you thought you made 'high quality' jumps (whatever those are). The events as they transpired seems to show otherwise.

In terms of jumps, if you don't think that 5500 jumps is enough to be giving advice, or anyway below 'average', I'm not sure what planet you're from. So you have 1300 jumps in 3 1/2 years, which averages out to 371 per year. I have 5500+ in 18 years which averages out to 305 jumps per year. Do you know what the 'practical' difference is between those two? It's not the 66 jumps per year average, it's the 4200 more jumps and 15 more years in the sport.

I started flying 100sq ft canopies when I had 300 jumps in year 3 of skydiving. I would suggest that 5000+ jumps over 15 years on small canopies might give me a place from which to speak. I would also suggest that the fact that you flew yourself into the hard-paved ground from 800ft, under your newly accuired, ultra high-performace, massivly downsized canopy gives me a place from which to speak.

You can get mad at me for pointing out the obvious, or you can get mad at me for the way I pointed it out. The solution isn't to get mad, the solution is not to act in such a way that can be characterized as such. If you weren't pushing it in every way possible, and defending your actions with statements that make it appear that you think you or your situatuion are 'special', and that the common knowledge about these things don't apply to you, then I wouldn't have anything to say.

Like it or not, nothing I said is untrue and nothing I said is anything but 100% your doing. That's the real lesson here.

Where's the 'like' button? Good post!


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