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Rigorous Gear Inspection Training?

 

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tsf

Mar 26, 2013, 10:01 PM
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Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? Can't Post

I don't really have gear fear anymore, but in AFF I had it bad. Even though I was getting checked out by my instructor, I wish I had better confidence to know that if something was wrong with my rig that I would catch it.

I wish that part of the instruction would have been time spent on rigorously inspecting gear. I'm talking about having the student inspect many "dummy" rigs and conclude if they are ready to jump or not. Mixed in with perfectly fine rigs would be rigs with common issues that range in severity (exposed bridle, no reserve seal, sketchy closing pin, not enough bridle slack, too much bridle slack, etc.).

Is this excessive? I know part of it is that instructors really only have so much time, and it's possible that this is more my shortcomings as a student and not the responsibility of an instructor. But I feel like it would help in the early stages to help instill confidence that you do in fact have your wits about you when you inspect your gear (as opposed to *always* seeing a proper rig ready to jump when you do your gear inspections).


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:43 PM
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Re: [tsf] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your instructor should go over the key parts to the parachute system and a basic knowledge what what each component does and how to do a proper gear check for the MAJOR items. If you haven't gotten this yet, you are probably just starting and there are things that your instructor wants you to learn first. The training should be more in depth as you go along, but it might not be as in depth as you may like, but...

Quote:
it's possible that this is more my shortcomings as a student

Knowing about your gear, how to all works together, what the different manufactures recommend for user maintenance, and how to inspect it are all things you SHOULD be taught if your instructor is doing his/her job you are paying them to do. You can also get this information for free from jumpers that have been around the sport a while and like to share their knowledge.

To many new jumpers don't know enough about the gear that is the only thing between life and death, literally. Go get your answers, heck you may want to look into a future as a rigger too!


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 27, 2013, 4:36 AM
Post #3 of 26 (8491 views)
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Re: [tsf] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I wish that part of the instruction would have been time spent on rigorously inspecting gear.

You should have been taught how to check your gear, and the gear check should have slowly become your responsibility over the course of your jumps (with your instructor observing). Even then, it's still common for you to recieve a gear check from another (qualified) jumper as a back-up.

As far as rigging mistakes, I'm not sure anyone wants to take the time to set them up. Part of teaching you to check your own gear should have been an explanation of how things should look when properly configured, so you can figure that if things don't look that way, they are not correct, without having to literally see the incorrect configuration.

The other aspect of this is learning to pack. Part of packing is inspecting the 'inner workings' of the rig as you go, and the other part is properly configuring all the parts of the rig. By the time you get through that, you should have a good working knowledge of your rig, inside and out.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 27, 2013, 6:54 AM
Post #4 of 26 (8445 views)
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Re: [tsf] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll have to slightly disagree with the reply that said:

Quote:
Knowing about your gear, how to all works together, what the different manufactures recommend for user maintenance, and how to inspect it are all things you SHOULD be taught if your instructor is doing his/her job you are paying them to do.

It's a well intentioned idea, and happens to some degree, but taken fully: No way, that would happen only in some ideal world.

In reality, the instructor gets paid for a jump, and not to hold an all-weekend gear & rigging seminar.

Yes the instructors should be teaching you about gear jump by jump. So that at some point, they can have you check your own RSL or see that the pin is properly seated or make sure the chest strap buckle is done up the right way. You'll need to be able to do a full supervised gear check later in your student jumps.

I don't know the rules where ever you are, but where I am (Canada), students going for their license typically demonstrate a gear check, catching some deliberate errors. So some level of gear knowledge is expected to be taught by that point.

But other than that, you aren't going to see photos or rigs deliberately modified to demonstrate errors. Nor will an instructor take you around the DZ to see the variation in 30 different rigs, to look a closing loops, different flap orders on rigs you aren't currently jumping, all the different line types, different levels of fuzziness on brake lines, different RSL configurations, details of bridle to deployment bag attachment and the different types of damage that can occur there, and so on.

Another example would be that you would be taught as a student how to inspect 3 rings for basic assembly errors, but students don't disassemble rigs, so you'll likely never actually have one apart by the time you are licensed. You'll just have to learn that sort of stuff from others in your down time at the DZ. Otherwise you'll be at 200 jumps and asking a rigger how to assemble 3-rings. The rigger will roll his eyes and mutter how the kids these days don't get taught anything. But there just isn't any formal spot in the instructional program to learn these things.

It looks like you are ready to ask all the detailed little questions (eg, about how much bridle slack is OK). Great. So you'll just have to go ask the questions. Instructors won't always have time to answer in full detail, but do ask if it is something relevant to the gear you are about to jump on the next jump. Other skydivers at the DZ (especially of lower experience level) won't always have the right answers, but slowly you can build up your database of information and try to sort out what the best answers on gear really are...


(This post was edited by pchapman on Mar 27, 2013, 6:57 AM)


NWFlyer  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 10:16 AM
Post #5 of 26 (8402 views)
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Re: [tsf] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wish that part of the instruction would have been time spent on rigorously inspecting gear. I'm talking about having the student inspect many "dummy" rigs and conclude if they are ready to jump or not. Mixed in with perfectly fine rigs would be rigs with common issues that range in severity (exposed bridle, no reserve seal, sketchy closing pin, not enough bridle slack, too much bridle slack, etc.).

I've seen that done as a Safety Day activity at dropzones - a handful of rigs are "rigged" with problems, and the Safety Day participants list as many as they can then check to see if they caught everything. If you've got 50+ people participating in a Safety Day event, taking the time and effort to set something like that up can be very worthwhile and it gets everyone (including those well past student status whose gear checks may be on "auto-pilot" to focus on the topic). Of course, it's even more fun to put one perfect rig in there (fun to watch everyone struggle to find what is "wrong" with that one. Laugh)

So, maybe suggest that (or even help organize) for your dropzone next Safety Day. One way to make it easy to do is to use rigs that are already in the loft for repacks (with the owners' permission, of course).


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Mar 27, 2013, 10:16 AM)


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Mar 27, 2013, 6:57 PM
Post #6 of 26 (8333 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

Peter,

I should clarify, yes I agree that instructors are not responsible for an all-weekend gear seminar, but here is the problem/trend I seem to be seeing...

Quote:
In reality, the instructor gets paid for a jump

Instructors doing the bare minimums and possibly less, to just move on to the next student to get paid for the next "jump". Its a little off topic, but what is that mentality doing for the young jumpers in the sport. No old heads hanging around the DZ to offer...gasp...free help/instruction/knowledge to the new guys? Im guessing that is why we are seeing more and more young skydivers coming on to DZ.com and asking questions that they should be asking at their home DZ instead. Then all those young jumpers just want to get to 500 jumps so they can make money (which is totally their choice). I'm sure their are plenty of helpful jumpers out there in skydiving land, but I see the community as a whole providing less mentoring and trying to develop skydivers. Its really not the big stuff that we over look, its the little stuff. Rant off.

Quote:
Another example would be that you would be taught as a student how to inspect 3 rings for basic assembly errors, but students don't disassemble rigs, so you'll likely never actually have one apart by the time you are licensed. You'll just have to learn that sort of stuff from others in your down time at the DZ.

If your a USPA instructor, I hope so...
http://www.uspa.org/...icenseProgandApp.pdf
Cat H

or

http://www.uspa.org/...icenseProfandApp.pdf
Equipment Knowledge Section


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 27, 2013, 7:14 PM
Post #7 of 26 (8327 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

No arguments about the rant about people being too busy to really teach.
But that is interesting about the A license card including 3 ring assembly. (I'm CSPA so am not always up on the latest USPA stuff.)


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Mar 27, 2013, 7:24 PM
Post #8 of 26 (8321 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

The rant wasn't meant for you, for sure. Just an observation that I've seen and no forum to vent it in lately.

Hope it is warming up for you up there!


cavscout73  (C 40414)

Mar 27, 2013, 8:42 PM
Post #9 of 26 (8301 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

Another idea, if you have a willing packer. Work with them as much as you can.
I know I myself have spend a lot of time with students and younfer jumpers. Not that m not a younger Jumper myself but , I do try to take the packing classes. Beyond just how to pack. we go through Inspections, maintainence, etc. my goal is for you to become intimate with your rig. Know everything there is to know at a Jumper level.. And you wont dtive your ibstructor nuts with rig questions


DcloudZ  (B 37320)

Mar 28, 2013, 6:07 AM
Post #10 of 26 (8266 views)
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Re: [tsf] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm talking about having the student inspect many "dummy" rigs and conclude if they are ready to jump or not. Mixed in with perfectly fine rigs would be rigs with common issues that range in severity (exposed bridle, no reserve seal, sketchy closing pin, not enough bridle slack, too much bridle slack, etc.).

Ya great idea! Let's mix in dummy rigs with perfectly good rigs because that's a great way to ensure safety and training!

There is absolutely zero chance that someone grabs a dummy rig and hops on the plane with it right?! I mean, come on, accidents never happen in skydiving!!!!!


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 28, 2013, 6:25 AM
Post #11 of 26 (8263 views)
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Re: [DcloudZ] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm talking about having the student inspect many "dummy" rigs and conclude if they are ready to jump or not. Mixed in with perfectly fine rigs would be rigs with common issues that range in severity (exposed bridle, no reserve seal, sketchy closing pin, not enough bridle slack, too much bridle slack, etc.).

Ya great idea! Let's mix in dummy rigs with perfectly good rigs because that's a great way to ensure safety and training!

There is absolutely zero chance that someone grabs a dummy rig and hops on the plane with it right?! I mean, come on, accidents never happen in skydiving!!!!!

The rigger should maintain a list of what's wrong with each rig, and check it all off before the rigs are allowed back out of the loft.

Another plan is after everyone identifies the problem, most of which can be fixed easily... fix them on the spot.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Mar 28, 2013, 2:03 PM
Post #12 of 26 (8196 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm talking about having the student inspect many "dummy" rigs and conclude if they are ready to jump or not. Mixed in with perfectly fine rigs would be rigs with common issues that range in severity (exposed bridle, no reserve seal, sketchy closing pin, not enough bridle slack, too much bridle slack, etc.).

Ya great idea! Let's mix in dummy rigs with perfectly good rigs because that's a great way to ensure safety and training!

There is absolutely zero chance that someone grabs a dummy rig and hops on the plane with it right?! I mean, come on, accidents never happen in skydiving!!!!!

The rigger should maintain a list of what's wrong with each rig, and check it all off before the rigs are allowed back out of the loft.

Another plan is after everyone identifies the problem, most of which can be fixed easily... fix them on the spot.

Or you could put a big red "X" on the training dummy rigs. Worked for DB Cooper, didn't it?


Angelic

Seriously, to the OP - This is where hanging out after jumping or going out to the DZ on days you know the weather is too bad to jump is beneficial.

Hang out with the riggers and the packers and pick their brains. Watch them do their work. Most will be happy to help you learn, it's becoming a rarity that new jumpers want to understand their gear well.


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 28, 2013, 2:06 PM
Post #13 of 26 (8193 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hang out with the riggers and the packers and pick their brains. Watch them do their work. Most will be happy to help you learn, it's becoming a rarity that new jumpers want to understand their gear well.

Couple weeks ago I was doing a repack at the DZ (usually take them home) and had a few people watching.

The look on their faces when I explained that little blue aluminum part was the skyhook. They acted like I was trying to sell them my time share on the moon!Laugh


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 28, 2013, 4:57 PM
Post #14 of 26 (8172 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reality, the instructor gets paid for a jump, and not to hold an all-weekend gear & rigging seminar.

Yes the instructors should be teaching you about gear jump by jump.
Canada may do that. In the U.S. AFFI/Coaches are supposed to be doing much more than that.

This is a major problem and one of my major pet peeves....instructors that do nothing more than the jump and the rest of it be damned.

These AFFI should get the boot both literally and figuratively.

OTOH, those bozos gave me a full-time job filling in where they refused top go.

AFFIs - Get off your dead ass and do your job - TEACH!


In reply to:
So some level of gear knowledge is expected to be taught by that point.
True. Come to the U.S. and observe several DZs. You'll likely be disappointed.


In reply to:
But other than that, you aren't going to see photos or rigs deliberately modified to demonstrate errors
True. What DZ has the gear available to do that?


In reply to:
Nor will an instructor take you around the DZ to see the variation in 30 different rigs, to look a closing loops, different flap orders on rigs you aren't currently jumping, all the different line types, different levels of fuzziness on brake lines, different RSL configurations, details of bridle to deployment bag attachment and the different types of damage that can occur there, and so on.
And now you know WHY my pet peeve. You are correct in that way too few do that.

Again, AFFIs - Get off your dead ass and do your job - TEACH!


In reply to:
Another example would be that you would be taught as a student how to inspect 3 rings for basic assembly errors, but students don't disassemble rigs, so you'll likely never actually have one apart by the time you are licensed.
Again...AFFI/Coach dependent. Any students that worked with me for the duration were taught ALL that shit before being released for self-supervision.


In reply to:
You'll just have to learn that sort of stuff from others in your down time at the DZ. Otherwise you'll be at 200 jumps and asking a rigger how to assemble 3-rings. The rigger will roll his eyes and mutter how the kids these days don't get taught anything.
Exactly.


In reply to:
But there just isn't any formal spot in the instructional program to learn these things.
If we have to depend on 'formal' we're dead...just fucking dead. USPA isn't going to spell everything out like we area bunch of children. Somewhere along the line one has to assume that people need to take responsibility for their learning.


In reply to:
Instructors won't always have time to answer in full detail,
Maybe not but a good one will find someone for you that DOES have time.


In reply to:
but do ask if it is something relevant to the gear you are about to jump on the next jump.

More specific...ask even if you have no idea what you are trying to ask. A good teacher will work with a student until we figure out just what it is you're asking. The cool part about that is that during the discovery process, it always happens,,,and I mean always happens, that other holes in knowledge are uncovered.

Other skydivers at the DZ (especially of lower experience level) won't always have the right answers, but slowly you can build up your database of information and try to sort out what the best answers on gear really are...I would suggest expediting that gain in knowledge. Slowly may be just too late.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 28, 2013, 5:00 PM
Post #15 of 26 (8170 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Peter,

I should clarify, yes I agree that instructors are not responsible for an all-weekend gear seminar, but here is the problem/trend I seem to be seeing...

Quote:
In reality, the instructor gets paid for a jump

Instructors doing the bare minimums and possibly less, to just move on to the next student to get paid for the next "jump".

Exactly. I happy that at lest one other person recognizes the problem.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 28, 2013, 5:03 PM
Post #16 of 26 (8168 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No arguments about the rant about people being too busy to really teach.
But that is interesting about the A license card including 3 ring assembly. (I'm CSPA so am not always up on the latest USPA stuff.)

I teach it as part of the:

7. Perform manufacturer-recommended owner
service on a canopy release system.
Date_________ I_______ Lic. #______________

on our two-page progression card.

It's listed in Cat H on the 4-pager.

Where does the CSPA cover it?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 28, 2013, 5:04 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 28, 2013, 5:05 PM
Post #17 of 26 (8165 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The rant wasn't meant for you, for sure. Just an observation that I've seen and no forum to vent it in lately.

Hope it is warming up for you up there!

Do a search...you'll find my fingerprints all over it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 28, 2013, 5:06 PM
Post #18 of 26 (8164 views)
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Re: [DcloudZ] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm talking about having the student inspect many "dummy" rigs and conclude if they are ready to jump or not. Mixed in with perfectly fine rigs would be rigs with common issues that range in severity (exposed bridle, no reserve seal, sketchy closing pin, not enough bridle slack, too much bridle slack, etc.).

Ya great idea! Let's mix in dummy rigs with perfectly good rigs because that's a great way to ensure safety and training!

There is absolutely zero chance that someone grabs a dummy rig and hops on the plane with it right?! I mean, come on, accidents never happen in skydiving!!!!!

You assume too much. No DZ would let them get mixed...oh, wait...never mind.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 28, 2013, 6:06 PM
Post #19 of 26 (8154 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Where does the CSPA cover it?

Not sure actually if it is. We don't have quite as much in the way of formal lists. While gear inspection is taught in general, and the 3 ring of course, I don't think hands on practice is actually done to assemble one. (Although that's a great way to actually learn, rather than just by looking at the thing.)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 29, 2013, 12:37 PM
Post #20 of 26 (8070 views)
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Re: [tsf] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

Our students are given a form prior to every level/category of their student program which has checklists they should follow to ensure they have the correct gear, know what they are expected to accomplish on that skydive, and a ton of other stuff. We walk our students through the entire process from picking the correct rig off the rack, signing it out properly, then following a VERY complete gear inspection checklist from top to bottom. Rushing a student into a rig, not explaining the "how's" and the "why's" along the way is a bad idea.

If you think you are being rushed by your instructors or you have more questions, then TELL THEM and ask them to slow down.

Chuck


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 30, 2013, 10:30 AM
Post #21 of 26 (7988 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Our students are given a form prior to every level/category of their student program which has checklists they should follow to ensure they have the correct gear, know what they are expected to accomplish on that skydive, and a ton of other stuff. We walk our students through the entire process from picking the correct rig off the rack, signing it out properly, then following a VERY complete gear inspection checklist from top to bottom. Rushing a student into a rig, not explaining the "how's" and the "why's" along the way is a bad idea.

If you think you are being rushed by your instructors or you have more questions, then TELL THEM and ask them to slow down.

Chuck

Perfect!
+10


feuergnom  (D License)

Mar 31, 2013, 4:30 PM
Post #22 of 26 (7903 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I wish that part of the instruction would have been time spent on rigorously inspecting gear. I'm talking about having the student inspect many "dummy" rigs and conclude if they are ready to jump or not. Mixed in with perfectly fine rigs would be rigs with common issues that range in severity (exposed bridle, no reserve seal, sketchy closing pin, not enough bridle slack, too much bridle slack, etc.).

I've seen that done as a Safety Day activity at dropzones - a handful of rigs are "rigged" with problems, and the Safety Day participants list as many as they can then check to see if they caught everything. If you've got 50+ people participating in a Safety Day event, taking the time and effort to set something like that up can be very worthwhile and it gets everyone (including those well past student status whose gear checks may be on "auto-pilot" to focus on the topic). Of course, it's even more fun to put one perfect rig in there (fun to watch everyone struggle to find what is "wrong" with that one. Laugh)

So, maybe suggest that (or even help organize) for your dropzone next Safety Day. One way to make it easy to do is to use rigs that are already in the loft for repacks (with the owners' permission, of course).


that used to be our safety day programm for quite some time - and it always was amazing to see how many of the "rigging-errors" were not found...
bottom line: to many jumpers (low- and longtimers!) don't know how their shit works Unimpressed

to the OP: keep your attitude and learn as much as you can about (your personal) gear


nigel99  (D 1)

Mar 31, 2013, 8:39 PM
Post #23 of 26 (7876 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy,

I friend of mine here (AFF instructor) runs a weekly Friday night packing class. It is specifically dedicated to running through the A license packing requirements.

Yes the students pay him a small fee to attend, but in exchange they are given a dedicated 2 hours after jumping where he is giving them undivided attention.

I think it is a good model to work from.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 1, 2013, 8:20 AM
Post #24 of 26 (7828 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Andy,

I friend of mine here (AFF instructor) runs a weekly Friday night packing class. It is specifically dedicated to running through the A license packing requirements.

Yes the students pay him a small fee to attend, but in exchange they are given a dedicated 2 hours after jumping where he is giving them undivided attention.

I think it is a good model to work from.

Agreed. ANYTHING we can do to help out the youngsters is good. You know me, so I'll not mention $$$ for the instruction.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 1, 2013, 2:34 PM
Post #25 of 26 (7791 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Rigorous Gear Inspection Training? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Our students are given a form prior to every level/category of their student program which has checklists they should follow to ensure they have the correct gear, know what they are expected to accomplish on that skydive, and a ton of other stuff. We walk our students through the entire process from picking the correct rig off the rack, signing it out properly, then following a VERY complete gear inspection checklist from top to bottom. Rushing a student into a rig, not explaining the "how's" and the "why's" along the way is a bad idea.

If you think you are being rushed by your instructors or you have more questions, then TELL THEM and ask them to slow down.

Chuck

I wish I had been part of a school such as that.
Unsure


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