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When you see Airtec at the Symposium.....

 

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gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 22, 2013, 5:31 AM
Post #1 of 65 (4282 views)
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When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... Can't Post

    While you're schmoozing with the Airtec people maybe you could find a way to politely bring up the fact that they are currently doing a huge amount of damage to their brand.

As far as I can tell they feel that they can deal with 4 years of defective product by continuing business as usual. If they are making any effort at all to increase their service capacity to fix the problem they are failing to communicate it to their customers.

If you feel that taking 4 years to fix the product and charging customers to do it is not reasonable, please take the time to let them know.

They are running the risk of turning from the company that gives the customer the peace of mind of the 4 year check to the becoming the company that merely uses it as a lame excuse to not honour their product warranty. While their customer wonders on every jump if they remembered to double check if the device is still working.

Ken Gowler


base283  (D 15343)

Mar 22, 2013, 6:55 AM
Post #2 of 65 (4171 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Why dont you do it? Just sayin.
take care,
space


DivingWombat  (B License)

Mar 22, 2013, 8:38 AM
Post #3 of 65 (4097 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Honestly, I am pretty pissed because I switched from a Vigil to a Cypres in the last second (order close to be delivered).

All that just to realize I switched to a defective unit. DOA to be a bit harsh.

And no, I don't press the button every time before boarding. I take the risk which is very very low (like mentioned in the bulletin).

I think it is not acceptable that you're not allowed to send it back for repair.
On the other hand, how could they deal with several thousand units at the same time? But that's not my problem!


skytribe  (D 9403)

Mar 22, 2013, 8:43 AM
Post #4 of 65 (4087 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

It may be that they could have created a process whereby you scheduled your cypres for repair and it gave you a window to return it in. That way they don't all arrive on day 1 and customers feel they don't have to wait years for a fix.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Mar 22, 2013, 10:43 AM
Post #5 of 65 (4010 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

While I can understand some frustration with this....
1.as a former Argus owner, there is no comparison. Argus just walked away from their problem, no fix, no nothing, with a MUCH more serious issue. I was real happy to get $250 out of my two year old paperweight.
2.I own an affected Cypres. From what I understand, this is a software glitch that might effect the unit, but more likely won't.
3. There is a easy test to be sure it's working.
4.if it does happen to my unit, they'll fix it immediately.

Logistically there would be two alternatives to deal with all of the effected units now. One, have everyone send them in and be without for an extended period of time, or two, hire a bunch of inexperienced people to work on them.
I guess I don't favor either of those alternatives.


Skybear

Mar 23, 2013, 2:44 AM
Post #6 of 65 (3834 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Honestly, I am pretty pissed because I switched from a Vigil to a Cypres in the last second (order close to be delivered).

Why are you pissed? If the order is not yet delivered you will get a unit which is perfectly fine.

I am in close contact with the company and I can tell you that they are indeed working on a recovery plan with great effort.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 23, 2013, 11:11 AM
Post #7 of 65 (3638 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Need a whaaaaambulance? Stop using their product if you don't like it.

How would you feel if people went around saying "Don't skydive with him, he's not safe"?


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 23, 2013, 12:00 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

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Need a whaaaaambulance? Stop using their product if you don't like it.

How would you feel if people went around saying "Don't skydive with him, he's not safe"?

I'm not sure what this means, other than maybe your mother should not let you out the sandbox so often. For what it's worth I don't use it, my wife does. But she has indeed stopped and says she won't start again till it's fixed.

Thanks for your input.
Ken


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 23, 2013, 12:16 PM
Post #9 of 65 (3606 views)
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Re: [Skybear] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

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I am in close contact with the company and I can tell you that they are indeed working on a recovery plan with great effort.


This is exactly what I want to hear. But from Airtec. SSK currently has my wife's CYPRES and a request for warranty service. I am in contact with both companies and all I get get is excuses about being busy and condescending answers about it being "just a simple button push".

So far the level of unwillingness to even acknowledge that they are responsible for fixing the problem in a timely fashion is nearly breathtaking. (OK, that is hyperbole, but you get the point) When I ask for a time line for this repair, all I get is that maybe in 3 months or so they may be able to tell me how much longer.

It is now at the point that I am considering my options to try to involve consumer protection agencies in Canada, the US and the EU for assistance. However, if Airtec would simply let me know that they intend to do something about the problem I would not even dream of doing that.

The bottom line is that if they intend to take real responsibility for this defect in a timely matter they need to inform me and all other affected customers very soon.

Ken


strife

Mar 23, 2013, 2:10 PM
Post #10 of 65 (3557 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

and now a 20% tax on deposits over 100k Euro the Cyprus brand is just taking a beating.


sundevil777  (D License)

Mar 23, 2013, 2:19 PM
Post #11 of 65 (3546 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

To get it fixed sooner, zap it with static discharge - see how much it takes to get it to lock up. It either will be fairly easy, or you might find that it withstands a big hit and you won't be so nervous about it.


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 23, 2013, 2:37 PM
Post #12 of 65 (3532 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To get it fixed sooner, zap it with static discharge - see how much it takes to get it to lock up. It either will be fairly easy, or you might find that it withstands a big hit and you won't be so nervous about it.

Quote:
and now a 20% tax on deposits over 100k Euro the Cyprus brand is just taking a beating.

Believe me, I considered doing that. And yes, Cyprus and CYPRES are both having a bad week.


elduderino  (Student)

Mar 28, 2013, 6:35 AM
Post #13 of 65 (3171 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

hmm,...dont get it,...!!!
what the fuck is so difficult to push a little red button?????
its only a check,...nothing more will happen that the little red lamp is flashing and u go skydive,...

let me think,....i got it!!!!!,....skydivers,....
every dumb idiot who drives a car hit the brakes to see that they are working propperly,....every idiot pilot checks the rudder before takeoff and preflightcheck,...
but skydiver are not able to deal with a propper preflightcheck,...
they are checking their fucking gopro befrore boarding the plane 10 time that the batterie is fully loaded,....
and the same motherfucker ask me " is the red light flashing???" before exit,....

but to push a little button on a saftey divice is TO HARD,...

dont get it,....


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 28, 2013, 6:37 AM
Post #14 of 65 (3161 views)
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Re: [elduderino] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
propperly,....every idiot pilot checks the rudder before takeoff and preflightcheck,...

Not true, I know of atleast one crash that was caused by the pilots forgetting to remove the control lock, put the plane into a stall after takeoff and killed them. Unimpressed


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Mar 28, 2013, 7:40 AM
Post #15 of 65 (3094 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

something I didn't know about "the plan"

http://www.youtube.com/...v=I1EGGML_hJ8#t=388s


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Mar 28, 2013, 8:11 AM
Post #16 of 65 (3062 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So far the level of unwillingness to even acknowledge that they are responsible for fixing the problem in a timely fashion is nearly breathtaking. (OK, that is hyperbole, but you get the point) When I ask for a time line for this repair, all I get is that maybe in 3 months or so they may be able to tell me how much longer.

Don't take this as a defense of CYPRES, but I do think Cliff addressed it pretty head-on in the interview we did. He didn't seem to be ducking any part of it.


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 28, 2013, 9:13 AM
Post #17 of 65 (3035 views)
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Re: [DSE] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So far the level of unwillingness to even acknowledge that they are responsible for fixing the problem in a timely fashion is nearly breathtaking. (OK, that is hyperbole, but you get the point) When I ask for a time line for this repair, all I get is that maybe in 3 months or so they may be able to tell me how much longer.

Don't take this as a defense of CYPRES, but I do think Cliff addressed it pretty head-on in the interview we did. He didn't seem to be ducking any part of it.

Well first of all, this is just an interview and just a man talking. That not a firm written promise. Secondly it indicates that they are just fine with taking two years to fix the defect caused by failing to adequate test the new component. Third the condescending attitude of "what's the problem, it's just a simple button push" completely ignores the fact that it was sold as set it and forget it device. They have published an SB stating that it is mandatory to check it before every jump. That is not going to happen consistently. The device can not be used in the manner designed, according to Airtec's SB. Some may find that acceptable, I do not.

Addressing the matter head on requires communicating a REAL PLAN to CUSTOMERS, not a soothing interview at an industy trade show. But thanks for asking him about it, it's the only info I've managed to get from this secretive outfit. They won't talk to a mere customer about it at all.

Ken

I've edited this to remove words that called the interviewer an "insider" That was completely unfair and implied a bias that I'm sure does not exist. Again, thank you for the interview and all your hard work.


(This post was edited by gowlerk on Mar 28, 2013, 9:56 AM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Mar 28, 2013, 10:14 AM
Post #18 of 65 (2990 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
propperly,....every idiot pilot checks the rudder before takeoff and preflightcheck,...

Not true, I know of atleast one crash that was caused by the pilots forgetting to remove the control lock, put the plane into a stall after takeoff and killed them. Unimpressed

I don't think you'd find any pilots that would say they shouldn't have to be bothered with such things, as they are too busy to spend the time.

I would like to know how difficult it is to zap a unit into a lockup. Is an ordinary shuffling around on carpet sort of zap enough, or does it take a determined effort to build up enough of a charge? If I were worried about this service bulletin, I would try to get it to lockup on purpose in this way and get it fixed sooner rather than later. I've been turning my unit on and off between each jump for quite some time anyway, as I like to have the cutter circuit checked.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Mar 28, 2013, 10:15 AM)


kuai43  (C License)

Mar 28, 2013, 11:26 AM
Post #19 of 65 (2931 views)
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Re: [IanHarrop] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
something I didn't know about "the plan"

http://www.youtube.com/...v=I1EGGML_hJ8#t=388s

Those are some hard-hitting questions, wouldn't you say? "Not sure how to describe what the issue is"? Unsure

Not to nitpick much, but...
- redefining "lockup" as "no-response"? Parsing your terminology doesn't change the reality.
- fact checks: "17 units out of 30,000"? Are there 30k units in service with DOMs during the 4-year period? And are there verifiable "thousands saved by a CYPRESS"?
- finally, asking a product manufacturer the question as to whether he thinks you should purchase it? Really?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 28, 2013, 4:22 PM
Post #20 of 65 (2860 views)
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Re: [elduderino] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
hmm,...dont get it,...!!!
what the fuck is so difficult to push a little red button?????
its only a check,...nothing more will happen that the little red lamp is flashing and u go skydive,...

let me think,....i got it!!!!!,....skydivers,....
every dumb idiot who drives a car hit the brakes to see that they are working propperly,....every idiot pilot checks the rudder before takeoff and preflightcheck,...
but skydiver are not able to deal with a propper preflightcheck,...
they are checking their fucking gopro befrore boarding the plane 10 time that the batterie is fully loaded,....
and the same motherfucker ask me " is the red light flashing???" before exit,....

but to push a little button on a saftey divice is TO HARD,...

dont get it,....

I don't get it either.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Mar 28, 2013, 5:13 PM
Post #21 of 65 (2844 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well first of all, this is just an interview and just a man talking. That not a firm written promise.

Perhaps 'just a man' but that man happens to be the voice of SSK/Airtec, and is the president of PIA. I'll take him at his word; Mr Schmucker is a stand-up guy in my 8 years of having known him.

Quote:
Addressing the matter head on requires communicating a REAL PLAN to CUSTOMERS, not a soothing interview at an industy trade show. But thanks for asking him about it, it's the only info I've managed to get from this secretive outfit. They won't talk to a mere customer about it at all.

I'm a 'mere customer.' Today I observed them speaking to many 'mere customers.'

Quote:
I've edited this to remove words that called the interviewer an "insider" That was completely unfair and implied a bias that I'm sure does not exist. Again, thank you for the interview and all your hard work.

It *was* a pretty cheap shot. The only 'insider anything' I've rec'd from Airtec, CYPRES, or Mr. Schmucker would amount to the free mints they give away in their booth bowls. Search through the old PIA vids, you'll also find where I had some hard questions for Vigil, too.


(This post was edited by DSE on Mar 28, 2013, 5:50 PM)


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 28, 2013, 5:57 PM
Post #22 of 65 (2833 views)
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Re: [DSE] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

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Perhaps 'just a man' but that man happens to be the voice of SSK/Airtec, and is the president of PIA. I'll take him at his word; Mr Schmucker is a stand-up guy in my 8 years of having known him.

Excellent, lets see if they make an official announcement then. Because so far they haven't said they would do anything to put the resources needed towards fixing the problem or honoring their warranty. They need to spend money on the problem, and they seem to feel very shy about doing so. I am still waiting for them to tell me when they can return my unit and make it good. My inbox is open, but no word from Airtec. Just SSK with excuses.

One interpretation of what was said in the interview could just as easily be " we are busy right now making money doing 4 year checks as usual. when we finish that maybe we can find the time to correct some of the defective product we have in the field. It will probably take at least two years, but that's ok."

He may be a stand up guy, but what I'm looking for is a stand up company. The reason people are willing to pay a 20% premium in the marketplace for their product is a belief that they are a superior company with a superior product. So stand up and show us.


(This post was edited by gowlerk on Mar 28, 2013, 6:49 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 28, 2013, 6:57 PM
Post #23 of 65 (2810 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you ever been to SSK? DO you have an idea the size of that company? Not that any of that matters, but you really need to get a clue as to the the volume of units just in the USA alone is enough to shut down that place for two yrs, you want your goddamn unit fixed pack the mofo up and send it to Germany along with bitchy letter.

I have know Mr. Schmucker going on 18 yrs. now, the man is one of the most honest, ethical, caring and giving people in this industry, hardly a "insider" or a card carrying member of the good old boys club. In fact I doubt you are getting the answers you are bitching about because they care enough to take the time research and find the best possible way to resolve the issue. In the mean time they have provide the industry the needed info to CYA, until the units in question are serviced during the service checks. If your until is one to fail, pretty sure those will get top priority over still functioning units.

You should be damn glad you have a service center and a person you can reach and talk to here in the USA. Try shipping and dealing with someone in Germany ONLY and see how that works out for you.

Oh and BTW I have six TDM units all of them a season & half old, without them it shuts down my business, there are many more dz's out there with a large number if units in use, and you think you got a pain in the ass to deal with, with only one unit? Suck it up cupcake and wait like everyone else or stop your bitching and ship that shit over seas and see how long that takes and costs you.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Mar 28, 2013, 6:58 PM)


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 28, 2013, 7:15 PM
Post #24 of 65 (2800 views)
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Re: [stratostar] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

    SSK has my unit. I have sent a message to both Airtec and SSK asking that it be sent to Germany if SSK can't handle it. I'm sure they are all nice people. I'm also sure they are in the business to make money. FWIW, I do not in any way blame SSK for the problem. The manufacturer caused the problem by inadequate testing and the manufacturer makes the money. The are not a charity.

I do hope your TMs remember to test their unit before every jump. They probably almost always will. And even if they don't and the unit fails it's unlikely that will be critical on any one jump. Almost for sure you'll be alright. But wouldn't it be a little better yet if you had the option of getting them updated in your slow season if you wanted?

And what about the military units out there? I wonder if these potentially mission critical units will be subject to "just a button push". This is not about how nice people are. This is about Airtec taking responsibility for fixing their defective product in a timely manner.


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 28, 2013, 8:12 PM
Post #25 of 65 (2776 views)
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Re: [stratostar] When you see Airtec at the Symposium..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In the mean time they have provide the industry the needed info to CYA, until the units in question are serviced during the service checks.

Just who's A do you think the SB is designed to cover? It's an attempt to pass off responsibility to the user.


(This post was edited by gowlerk on Mar 28, 2013, 8:40 PM)


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