Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Downsizing - no patronizing please

 

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Freeflaw  (Student)

Mar 7, 2013, 3:39 PM
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Downsizing - no patronizing please Can't Post

Hey guys

I am currently on a Storm 120 at a 1.6. Bought another Storm as I was doing a double downsize from a Storm 150 at a 1.2 ish (put around 500 jumps on it before the downsize). The 150 opened beautifully and was great to learn the basics of swooping. Loved the canopy...bitch to dive though...needed very aggressive inputs close to the ground to keep speed. I bought the 120 in the hopes of a wing that would allow me to progress canopy wise and still be manageable for wingsuiting. Long story short I hate the 120...it sinks like a brick, has no bottom end and the openings are shit compared to my 150. It is much easier (dare I say safer) to swoop (dive, plane out etc) but after planing out on rears after an efficient turn there is nothing left in the brakes (50 ish jumps on the wing now). Anyways- I decided to keep my 150 and pack it back up into my old container as a dedicated wingsuit rig.

I ultimately would like to fly a pocket rocket (speed speed speed - i need to look cool, remember). So what's a good next step coming from a steep trimmed seven cell. I am used to falling out of the sky, I want a canopy that is really responsive on harness, has a lot of range on the rears and does not require a herculean effort to keep in a dive. I am thinking Katana, Xfire2 maybe? I am somewhat hesitant to transition from a 7 cell to a 9 cell elliptical considering that I recently went from a 150 to a 120 in one leap (fine given the same plan form and my experience with that wing). Input appreciated. Not many demos around - except for a Katana 120 and a Xfire109 that I am hesitant to jump. How would you proceed?

Background: Took two canopy courses (One for learning how to swoop). Have gotten quite a few compliments from very proficient canopy pilots regarding my flying. I can do everything on Bill's list.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Mar 7, 2013, 4:39 PM
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I bought the 120 in the hopes of a wing that would allow me to progress canopy wise and still be manageable for wingsuiting.

Theres the first problem. You will need proper equipment dedicated to your discipline and other disciplines.

Swooping and wing suiting don't go hand in hand. You can ask anyone in the sport and you will get that answer. Its like freeflying with a group breaking off at 5K and pulling at 3.5 expecting to still get a 450 on into the swoop course.

Its not practical nor safe due to lack of time for a set up and all the traffic in the air. Dedicated training jumps are necessary if you want to get your swoop on and even better do it on your own dedicated hop and pop pass or high pull.

Quote:
So what's a good next step coming from a steep trimmed seven cell. I am used to falling out of the sky, I want a canopy that is really responsive on harness, has a lot of range on the rears and does not require a herculean effort to keep in a dive. I am thinking Katana, Xfire2 maybe?

Now back to the other part of your question. Those are both 9 cell platforms (not 7) and both great canopies for the next step in your progression towards the greater in canopy piloting. Your going to see more harness input and different riser pressures depending on your loadings and your personal techniques throughout the setup all the way through the turn. Some resulting in more dive and speed some less optimal.

An extra set of risers, dbag, and pilot chute would make an easy switch over for your current gear and allow you to partake in both disciplines pending time to switch gear between dedicated jumps. It really doesnt take that long to do once your used to it also

My advice to you is to talk to a respectable canopy pilot at your dz or one whos actively competing and well known, and get more advice on the two wings after more personal research, theres alot about the two wings on here, and lastly maintain coaching along the way.

The two canopies above are completely different from angle of attack to the overall speed. Both are great to fly when used properly and as you can see already from your change in wings different loadings and sizes completely change how the wing flies and reacts to your inputs.

Good luck


(This post was edited by jjudd on Mar 7, 2013, 4:46 PM)


voilsb  (D 30581)

Mar 7, 2013, 4:57 PM
Post #3 of 30 (9193 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe write PD with your issue. I fly a Storm 150 at 1.6, and it doesn't have any of the issues you describe. A buddy of mine demoed a Storm 120 at around 1.7 and a 107 at about 1.9ish and had none of those problems either.

Also, have you tried a Sabre2? Wingsuiter and Canopy pilot Chuck Blue swoops the snot out of his Sabre2 97 on wingsuit jumps.

Also, may try contacting NZ Aerosports about demoing a Matrix2 (5-cell cross-braced CRW canopy) with a sail slider.


Premier dima39  (D 36198)

Mar 7, 2013, 5:31 PM
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

You also can try to fly Odyssey 110/115/120 from Skylark for swoop, not wingsuit :). Same class 9-cells fully eleptical canopy like Katana/Crossfire.
http://www.skylark.ua/en/odyssey/


(This post was edited by dima39 on Mar 7, 2013, 5:39 PM)


Dutton  (D 15542)

Mar 8, 2013, 9:12 AM
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

The half of your personality that is over confident needs to Facepunch the other half that is rational.

That way you could just go ahead and buy what the cool kids are jumping and fit in with the crowd irregardless of whether or not you have the ability to fly it safely.

Oops... That probably sounded patronizing.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Mar 8, 2013, 4:25 PM
Post #6 of 30 (8731 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

oh yeah and demos! I almost forgot. Use them and see what suits your needs!


Freeflaw  (Student)

Mar 8, 2013, 4:48 PM
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Re: [Dutton] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

You are just jealous of my skill. Don't hold me back bro. Cool

I think I'll just get a Xfire2 119 and keep that one for 400-500 jumps. Not quite as steep as a Katana, great openings and more appropriate for what I am trying to do... (back to double fronts)


Freeflaw  (Student)

Mar 8, 2013, 5:06 PM
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Re: [jjudd] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Justin,

thanks for the lengthy reply. Demos are hard to come by up here.

My goal is hassle free beer line swooping. I never thought the storm was a swooping canopy. It was an nice transition canopy coming from the Sabre2 with wingsuiting in mind. It did however allow me to learn the basics of modern canopy flight (tight whipped 90s vs carved 90s, flared turns, quick rear to toggle transitions, dive recovery, setups, basic double front to harness turn transitions etc). I really fell in love with the canopy and never downsized as I could learn so much on the thing. It was an appropriate canopy for my skydiving at the time. It is not anymore...I have progressed to the point where an all around wing suits neither.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 8, 2013, 7:32 PM
Post #9 of 30 (8643 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I hate the 120...it sinks like a brick

Welcome to fast parachutes. They go fast because they're loaded up, or steeply trimmed, or both. In any case, you need to use the brakes or rear risers to modulate the speed/descent rate during the canopy flight. Yes, I said it, you actually have to fly your canopy, and not just hang there like a side of beef.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Mar 8, 2013, 8:16 PM
Post #10 of 30 (8629 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

https://www.facebook.com/groups/sofpidarf/ and it's spelt "breaux", breaux. Wink

I've put a couple of hundred jumps on a Odyssey 115 loaded at 1.6. Really nice canopy and sits about in the middle between the XF2 (I'm currently flying a XF2 109 @ ~1.7) and the KA. I also demoed a KA120 for about 20/30 jumps and an XF2 119 for about the same. I like to explain the Odyssey as how PD would build a crossfire competitor, it feels more PDish in the way it flies but isn't as serious as a KA. The XF2 is great but you have to fly it through the recovery arc (in my pretty limited experience) and it also recovers quicker than the KA & OD. The OD is a very nice canopy but the openings can be a little odd, nothing too dramatic but you probably need to be a bit more on your game. The XF2 openings are ridiculously nice, like getting a cuddle... um yeah... Wink

I won't go as far as to offer you advice on your progression, there are much more experienced people here who can do a better job than I would. Unfortunately, if you can't demo (I was lucky enough to be able to demo all three of the canopies I've mentioned before buying) then you're just going to have to go on what people say. So, that means business as usual for skydivers. Wink


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Mar 8, 2013, 8:16 PM)


skydive435  (D License)

Mar 8, 2013, 8:29 PM
Post #11 of 30 (8628 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

You will love the x fire 2-119. I did over 400 on that then went to a jvx 99... Its solid. Great opening and a great canopy to advance on. Good luck...


Freeflaw  (Student)

Mar 8, 2013, 9:27 PM
Post #12 of 30 (8608 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

I mostly hang in deep brakes and let everyone land before me whenever possible. Flat turns and toggle hook to flare carves are a lot of fun and if you intend to touch your fronts this better be second nature - no? I don't understand why this always turns into a discussion about canopy control in general. The Storm 120 is a steep trimmed 7 cell. It's not exactly an efficient wing. Yes people load Storms up to 2.0 (have you seen one land?). According to PD I am loading the canopy fairly high.

Plus: Where did my attitude indicate passive piloting anyways? I am just curious as to what people think would be a nice wing to transition to. Frankly I can make these decisions on my own. I like to test my ideas against other people though. I don't think this indicates lack of experience...it simply shows that I take other viewpoints into consideration when making my decisions.

To dave and dutton: I learn/learned a lot on these forums. It does however irk me that questions often do not get answered. Some of you use these forums to vent your general frustrations with the sport in any thread that allows you to do so. I understand this frustration but bitching about it on DZ.com doesn't solve anything. Get proactive with the USPA if you so desire. It would be a lot more useful if questions got answered rather than any thread dedicated to swooping and technique first turning into a bitchfest about the problem we have with people hooking themselves in and anyone asking this question getting pigeonholed into the category of DGIT. You are not stopping the next Sangi...that dude already has his mind made up. Out of 4 of my friends that downsized too quickly 2 knocked themselves out, one broke his back and pelvis, the other was out for 3 months (luckily only bruised). I pleaded and pleaded and they were my friends. Your heroic little internet antics however do nothing beyond turning a potentially useful platform for the exchange of ideas into a pathetic spectacle. A lot of people hate these forums because it is a fucking circle jerk. If there was less bullshit and bickering and more dissemination of information, I bet a lot of people would not view these forums in this light.

To everyone else: Thanks for your input


(This post was edited by Freeflaw on Mar 8, 2013, 9:31 PM)


blueblur  (A 64923)

Mar 9, 2013, 6:39 AM
Post #13 of 30 (8487 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

You'll put yer eye out with that thing kid...


craigbey

Mar 9, 2013, 6:45 AM
Post #14 of 30 (8483 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I bought the 120 in the hopes ...

You live in the US. There's no excuse for buying a PD product without knowing it's flight characteristics from first-hand experience.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/demorequest.asp

If that sounds harsh or patronizing, fine. Call me an iHole.


Dutton  (D 15542)

Mar 9, 2013, 9:07 AM
Post #15 of 30 (8427 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry if I come off as a jerk on the internet.

In real life, I'm actually a dick.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Mar 10, 2013, 6:51 AM
Post #16 of 30 (8236 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am somewhat hesitant to transition from a 7 cell to a 9 cell elliptical considering that I recently went from a 150 to a 120 in one leap

That sounds perfectly rational. Then though, in a subsequent post - you go ahead and say you are just going to go with the Xfire 119. - What would be wrong with say a 129? Not a "huge" difference between the 2, but a somewhat more logical step in the progression. If your ultimate plan is to get to a true "pocket-rocket" (sub-100) someday, THIS is supposed to be just an "interim step" to that anyway, right?

So, IMO - Go with a 129... fly the heck outa it, dial it in, and take even your own advice ...or not.

I like the guys post with the rational-face vs the irrational-face analogy. You do seem to have both here. Hope that (for you - whichever one it is) the right one wins the "fight". Wink


deathwish603  (B License)

Mar 10, 2013, 1:47 PM
Post #17 of 30 (8131 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

Storm is very un-agressive canopy, witch is popular between a beginers, old ppl, and wing suiters for soft opening and un-agressive respond... if U wanna swoop the best one to start from is a Sabre-2 with a good wing loading, Sabre-2 can be VERY agressive if needed and can be a nice and smooth glide if U R as well... So if U dont wanna hit a Katana yet, try Sabre-2, call PD, ask 'em for DEMO and pay for S&H. U can jump it for a week, if U need more time, just call 'em up and ask to extend it, no questions asked... Or U can ask for Katana if U want as well...
Be SAFE!


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 10, 2013, 5:43 PM
Post #18 of 30 (8082 views)
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Re: [deathwish603] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Storm is very un-agressive canopy, witch is popular between a beginers, old ppl, and wing suiters for soft opening and un-agressive respond

I disagree. The Storm is a great canopy, and swoops really well.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Mar 10, 2013, 5:56 PM
Post #19 of 30 (8067 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

I dig the storm too, lots of fun to fly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxjEKpn6Tos


trigger  (D 101390)

Mar 10, 2013, 7:33 PM
Post #20 of 30 (8027 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a big fan of the crossfire platform,
IMO, within reason the canopy likes to be loaded.
Personally I've never loaded one sub 1.65 and believe this may be the reason I've never experienced the abrupt recovery some jumpers have complained about.
Back in 2003 people were quoting 1.8 as the optimal loading for a crossfire(2)
I presently load one at 2.1 but in my experience above that I feel bottom end lift starts to suffer.

One of the things that impresses me most is the sheer flight range the canopy pocesses
In reply to:
and the last ten years the platform has suited me well.
If getting hold of demos really is a big issue where you are in my bias opinion you could do a lot worse.
Crossfires rock.



Obviously opinions very.

Apologies for being a dumb person using a damn smart phone to reply


(This post was edited by trigger on Mar 10, 2013, 7:36 PM)


Juzzie  (D License)

Mar 11, 2013, 11:03 AM
Post #21 of 30 (7889 views)
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Re: [Dutton] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sorry if I come off as a jerk on the internet.

In real life, I'm actually a dick.

Love it!


Freeflaw  (Student)

Mar 17, 2013, 9:49 PM
Post #22 of 30 (7446 views)
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Re: [Juzzie] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

I demoed a KA 107 today and immediately fell in love. I had a 99 Xfire and that as demo options. I haven't had this much fun skydiving since my first solo. I was hesitant after reading and hearing all the stories: Velo without brakes, dives like crazy, super ground hungry etc...

I did one HAHO and 4 hop and pops.Coming from a loaded up storm the transition was as natural as any could be. The openings sucked - as expected. Harness input was a little easier and produced the desired output quicker. The canopy to me seemed about as ground hungry as my storm - not more so at all. The forward speed, in static flight, was a little higher, though not significantly so. The fronts seemed similar in effort to pull down - almost felt a little sluggish on the KA even though their range was greater, the output more pronounced and the effort to hold them down remaining constant (unlike the storm). Rear riser pressure and toggle pressure seemed a little higher. Flat turns were not quite as flat as on the storm. Not surprisingly, in very deep brakes, close to the stall point, the canopy would buck more (very aggressive dive arrests would do this too). The main difference however was the flare - incredible. This canopy produces lift for days even after planing out on rears. Maybe my technique is shit but this canopy shuts down so much easier.

With all this being said, I am glad I started my "swoop" training under a Sabre2 at a 1 to 1 and learned everything up to 450s on a 1.2 loading. Without the proper know how this canopy will murder you quick. Panick turn without automatic dive arrest response - dead.

There seems to be a point in swooping where light loadings and quick recovery arcs become dangerous.


edit: I guess I had it wrong in my first post...the KA 107 was what I thought was a 120 and the 109 was in fact a 99.


(This post was edited by Freeflaw on Mar 17, 2013, 10:18 PM)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Mar 18, 2013, 7:21 AM
Post #23 of 30 (7326 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting that you'd say that the KA openings were bad, I've found all the KA openings on the different sizes that I've flown to be pretty good. I guess the Storm spoiled you. Wink


AdD  (D License)

Mar 19, 2013, 1:20 PM
Post #24 of 30 (6998 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There seems to be a point in swooping where light loadings and quick recovery arcs become dangerous.

Arguably that point is the transition to a highly loaded xbrace when your sight picture is calibrated for the last canopy.


SRI85  (D License)

Mar 19, 2013, 5:22 PM
Post #25 of 30 (6928 views)
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Re: [Freeflaw] Downsizing - no patronizing please [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

With all this being said, I am glad I started my "swoop" training under a Sabre2 at a 1 to 1 and learned everything up to 450s on a 1.2 loading..

450s at a 1.2 on a sabre 2? Crazy


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