Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Vigil save

 

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vincemoore88  (D 32404)

Feb 14, 2013, 7:01 PM
Post #1 of 73 (4243 views)
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Vigil save Can't Post

Had a young jumper maybe 60 jumps dislocated his right shoulder during the jump. I was videoing the 12 way. He was in the base and someone else coming into take a dock pulled it out so socket. He couldn't reach his plot chute and had problems located his reserve handle ( not sure why, I did not have the chance to ask him) and his vigil fired out at 1250 feet. Saved his life!!!








airdvr  (D 10977)

Feb 15, 2013, 5:31 AM
Post #5 of 73 (3862 views)
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Re: [Rover] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

The incident part of this report should be asking why he didn't pull his reserve with his good arm. If he hadn't had an AAD would he have bounced? Or did he wait for the AAD to fire?


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Feb 15, 2013, 5:46 AM
Post #6 of 73 (3843 views)
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Re: [Skyflyer3] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

Judging by the definition of incident provided when replying to this I can see some room for argument. But I would definitely be filing an AIM report if it happened at home. I would consider it an incident.

I am curious about the 1250 ft firing of the Vigil. Was this student or rental gear and was the Vigil set to student mode?

Ken


potatoman  (Student)

Feb 16, 2013, 5:38 AM
Post #7 of 73 (3371 views)
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Re: [vincemoore88] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

Since you did the vid, where the link?

Also, hope you didn't follow to get the shot of the save.....Crazy


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 16, 2013, 8:13 PM
Post #8 of 73 (3166 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The incident part of this report should be asking why he didn't pull his reserve with his good arm. If he hadn't had an AAD would he have bounced? Or did he wait for the AAD to fire?

Exactly. Just from what we have now, we have no clue as to why he didn't pull the reserve.




JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Feb 17, 2013, 9:48 AM
Post #10 of 73 (3010 views)
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Re: [vincemoore88] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
He couldn't reach his plot chute and had problems located his reserve handle ( not sure why, I did not have the chance to ask him)
I'm super glad he lived. I'm very disturbed by people who can't find their reserve handle. I wish you or I had a chance to debrief this incident.

I feel the handle is always there if you LOOK for it. I've known a few jumpers to admit having trouble finding the handle until they actually used their eyeballs.

My other question would be "Did you try to cutaway first?" Of course that's a total (pun intended) waste of time, but some people are trained "one size fits all" to cutaway, then pull reserve, no matter what.


rifleman  (Student)

Feb 17, 2013, 10:09 AM
Post #11 of 73 (2993 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

As a noob I only know what I was taught on my FJC as far as EP's are concerned.

Look - down and visually find the handles
Locate - physically take hold of the handles
Peel - the velcro from the cutaway pad
Punch - the cutaway pad out to full arm extension
Pull - the reserve handle (thumb through the handle)
Arch

Every time I go to the DZ we get refresher training and go through EP's. Haven't needed it yet (touch wood) but I'm confident that I can handle it if needed.


jclalor  (B 33202)

Feb 17, 2013, 10:53 AM
Post #12 of 73 (2948 views)
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Re: [vincemoore88] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Had a young jumper maybe 60 jumps dislocated his right shoulder during the jump. I was videoing the 12 way.


Maybe he had 60 jumps on a 12 way? Nice.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Feb 17, 2013, 12:26 PM
Post #13 of 73 (2867 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

My other question would be "Did you try to cutaway first?" Of course that's a total (pun intended) waste of time, but some people are trained "one size fits all" to cutaway, then pull reserve, no matter what.
With a dislocated shoulder, maybe not. If he was in a lot of pain he might have even just gone wonky - never a good idea, but it happens, especially with low experience. Glad the Vigil worked, at whatever altitude.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Feb 17, 2013, 1:21 PM
Post #14 of 73 (2818 views)
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Re: [rifleman] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a noob I only know what I was taught on my FJC as far as EP's are concerned.

Look - down and visually find the handles
Locate - physically take hold of the handles
Peel - the velcro from the cutaway pad
Punch - the cutaway pad out to full arm extension
Pull - the reserve handle (thumb through the handle)
Arch

Every time I go to the DZ we get refresher training and go through EP's. Haven't needed it yet (touch wood) but I'm confident that I can handle it if needed.
I like the way you were taught. That's exactly how I handle partial malfunctions. I esp. like the "thumb thru the handle" and "arch".

For a total malfunction do you plan to cutaway first or just pull your reserve? For totals (I've had 2) I just pull the reserve, no cutaway.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Feb 17, 2013, 1:22 PM
Post #15 of 73 (2813 views)
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Re: [tbrown] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
With a dislocated shoulder, maybe not. If he was in a lot of pain he might have even just gone wonky - n
Good point. Pain can be a huge distraction. Crazy

When in doubt, whip it out. (Pull your reserve.)Smile


rifleman  (Student)

Feb 18, 2013, 1:57 AM
Post #16 of 73 (2599 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For a total malfunction do you plan to cutaway first or just pull your reserve? For totals (I've had 2) I just pull the reserve, no cutaway.

What would be the difference between cutting away and not cutting away during a total mal? Is it just a time thing or does cutting away the main risers add an extra risk of entanglements during reserve deployment?




diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 18, 2013, 6:36 AM
Post #18 of 73 (2464 views)
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Re: [rifleman] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
For a total malfunction do you plan to cutaway first or just pull your reserve? For totals (I've had 2) I just pull the reserve, no cutaway.

What would be the difference between cutting away and not cutting away during a total mal? Is it just a time thing or does cutting away the main risers add an extra risk of entanglements during reserve deployment?

1. Cutting away wastes time which is at a premium at 120mph+

2. In the event the main deploys durring or post reserve deployment not cutting away is more likely to result in two out allowing you some control/options where as cutting away is more likely to result in an entanglement with no control/options.


Bertt  (D 99999)

Feb 18, 2013, 7:59 AM
Post #19 of 73 (2393 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

To play devil's advocate here: What do you think about the idea that for students, that adds one decision to the decision tree? "I sure don't have a square canopy over my head, but is this a pilot chute in tow, or a bag lock, or a streamer? Am I supposed to cutaway first, or just pull the reserve?"
vs.
"Damn, I counted to five. There should be a square canopy over my head. Time to cutaway and pull reserve"
I'd be interested in hearing some opinions.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Feb 18, 2013, 8:29 AM
Post #20 of 73 (2360 views)
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Re: [Bertt] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To play devil's advocate here: What do you think about the idea that for students, that adds one decision to the decision tree?
We've trained for years the difference between a partial and total to FJC students. Yes, it adds to the decision tree, but it's still a pretty small tree.

I think good instruction and repetitive practice with coaching is more important in learning EP's than simplifying them to too simple a level. Smile

BTW, pilot chute in tow, we teach cutaway, pull reserve. Smile


turkeyphant  (B 111016)

Feb 18, 2013, 8:35 AM
Post #21 of 73 (2357 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

My DZ trains a single decision tree - idea being that the stress of any malfunction means that not wasting time decided what to do and having only one thing to remember is preferred.

I would expect that after they come off student status they'd be taught/work out for themselves when going straight to silver is better.


champu  (D 28302)

Feb 18, 2013, 8:51 AM
Post #22 of 73 (2342 views)
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Re: [Bertt] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

The definition of a "total" is a bit different between a spring loaded main or reserve and a throw out main. If your pilot chute handle is shoved into your BOC and you can't find it, your pilot chute is wadded up and won't come out when you pull it, or you're wearing gloves and it turns out you've actually been tugging on your leg strap or something, you don't need to analyze why it is taking so long for your main to deploy since you last did something because you haven't actually done anything.

But let's look at this case while sticking with the idea of having a single emergency procedure for malfunctions and calling a dislocated arm a "main malfunction" to keep things simple. Picture someone with a dislocated right arm unable to deploy his main after a couple attempts, so he moves on to try and pull his cutaway handle with only his left hand because he was taught to pull his handles in order for all emergencies. You can do it, but it's awkward, and gives the person one more step to get stuck at all the way to the ground or AAD activation, whichever comes first (hopefully the latter.)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Feb 18, 2013, 8:59 AM
Post #23 of 73 (2331 views)
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Re: [champu] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But let's look at this case while sticking with the idea of having a single emergency procedure for malfunctions and calling a dislocated arm a "main malfunction" to keep things simple.
Good point with that. Thanks.

I remember one instructor, back in the round days, said "I don't care if they cutaway. I just want them to pull their fu@#ing reserve!" Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 18, 2013, 9:09 AM
Post #24 of 73 (2318 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

>I feel the handle is always there if you LOOK for it.

Read Rich Horn's account of not being able to find his cutaway handle. 6000 jumps, super current, was teaching AFF JCC's all the time (and thus teaching cutaway procedures all the time.) His cutaway handle ended up under his armpit and he could not reach it with either hand. (And of course nowadays most people's reserve handle is very similar to their main - so that could happen on either side.)


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Feb 18, 2013, 9:12 AM
Post #25 of 73 (2314 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Vigil save [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
BTW, pilot chute in tow, we teach cutaway, pull reserve.

I have to ask your reasoning in teaching this method.

JFYI, I would not be around today if I had followed this procedure!

At worst case, it will be a two out deal if the reserve PC wraps around the main PC bridle if you simply pull the reserve.



MEL


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