Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
small canopy big container

 


hunterSHOTWELL

Jan 25, 2013, 12:37 AM
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small canopy big container Can't Post

I wan't to put a sabre 120 in an I 44 this is below recomended size. I have a sabre 150 in there now that isn't super tight but isn't super loose. will I not be able to get a safe pin tension with the 120? maby my rig will start to get floppy. will I just be a gomer jumping an oversized container? whats the big deal?


mchamp  (D 32129)

Jan 25, 2013, 1:02 AM
Post #2 of 17 (2038 views)
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Re: [hunterSHOTWELL] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

It might have adequate pin tension I don't know as it depends on various factors such as humid or dry weather & new 120 or 1000jumps on your 120, but you might get away with it. Pack it and find out if there is enough pin tension and if you are not sure then ask your rigger. Shortening your closing loop may help the situation. Saying that, I don't recommend it nor do I condone it as per the manufacture not listing it/recommending it paired with that size canopy.

Stating the obvious: And if there isn't adequate pin tension and your rigger deems it not suitable then its simply time to buy a smaller container. Or just keep your current rig setup.

What's the big deal? For one you might end up with a horseshoe malfunction.......


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 25, 2013, 5:30 AM
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Re: [hunterSHOTWELL] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

One can also have a hard foam pillow tacked or sewn into the main container to take up some volume, although I don't really see this being done on modern containers. (But I'm not in FAA-land so I don't have to worry about their opinion. Since you haven't filled out your profile, I have no idea what rules apply to you.)

While pin tension is the big thing, also watch out for BOC tension. With little canopy pressure on the BOC, one sees BOC mouths hanging wide open from the pressure of the rolled up pilot chute inside, turning a modern freefly friendly rig into something less so.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jan 25, 2013, 6:02 AM
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Re: [hunterSHOTWELL] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
small canopy big container

Unimpressed Giggity.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 25, 2013, 6:08 AM
Post #5 of 17 (1893 views)
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Re: [pchapman] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One can also have a hard foam pillow tacked or sewn into the main container to take up some volume, although I don't really see this being done on modern containers.

One could also just sew that to the deployment bag. It would be much easier than trying to safely sew it inside of a container.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 25, 2013, 6:23 AM
Post #6 of 17 (1874 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One could also just sew that to the deployment bag. It would be much easier than trying to safely sew it inside of a container.

I personally haven't seen it done but have wondered about that option! The tiny extra drag on the bag wouldn't matter for most jumpers.


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Jan 25, 2013, 7:31 AM
Post #7 of 17 (1821 views)
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Re: [hunterSHOTWELL] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I wan't to put a sabre 120 in an I 44 this is below recomended size. I have a sabre 150 in there now that isn't super tight but isn't super loose. will I not be able to get a safe pin tension with the 120? maby my rig will start to get floppy. will I just be a gomer jumping an oversized container? whats the big deal?

No big deal. That is if you maintain pin tension and provide adequate bag tension such that if the container comes open while walking to the plane the bag doesn't fall out. This is necessary to provide staging for deployment. The bag cannot be extracted until you have positive pilot chute drag.
It's a nasty sight to look over your shoulder and see you bag above your pilot chute.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 25, 2013, 7:58 AM
Post #8 of 17 (1804 views)
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Re: [hunterSHOTWELL] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

I've jumped a J-4 with a 170,149 and a 129 in it. I pack the 129 very narrow which leaves slack in the sides of the container but give "me" good pin tension. I have never had a premature opening or any trouble extracting my pilot chute.

Padding the container or d-bag was mentioned. If you go that route I would pad the inside of the d-bag. It's safer because there is probably no way for the canopy to get stuck on something tacked into the bottom of the bag. It also adds no outside drag to the bag or new snag points.I have seen this done before.

This is my opinion only. I have no knowledge of the regulations to modifying a d-bad.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 25, 2013, 9:01 AM
Post #9 of 17 (1765 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

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This is my opinion only. I have no knowledge of the regulations to modifying a d-bag.

That depends who ya ask really. Anyone can legally make their own (main d-bag) and go jump it, there's no limitation on it being a non TSO'd item.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 25, 2013, 2:15 PM
Post #10 of 17 (1670 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

I had always thought that the d-bag was considered part of the H/C... which rather is a part-n-parcel component of the TSO'd system.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 25, 2013, 3:02 PM
Post #11 of 17 (1641 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had always thought that the d-bag was considered part of the H/C... which rather is a part-n-parcel component of the TSO'd system.

When it's sold, it is part of the assembly that you normally get, however most containers have no TSO'd main components. Usually it's just the harness and reserve container (including freebag and PC) that hold TSOs.

You could tie a bedsheet to your harness rings (the 3 ring ones) and jump it all you want, so long as the reserve is legal and you intend to land the 'main', you're fine.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 25, 2013, 3:06 PM
Post #12 of 17 (1633 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had always thought that the d-bag was considered part of the H/C... which rather is a part-n-parcel component of the TSO'd system.

If it was, all the RDS systems out there would be in violation of the TSO.


kuai43  (C License)

Jan 25, 2013, 10:57 PM
Post #13 of 17 (1544 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I had always thought that the d-bag was considered part of the H/C... which rather is a part-n-parcel component of the TSO'd system.

When it's sold, it is part of the assembly that you normally get, however most containers have no TSO'd main components. Usually it's just the harness and reserve container (including freebag and PC) that hold TSOs.

You could tie a bedsheet to your harness rings (the 3 ring ones) and jump it all you want, so long as the reserve is legal and you intend to land the 'main', you're fine.

So you're saying the main container itself is not part of the TSO and as far as the FAA is concerned, a certified rigger is not required for work performed on it?


freeflyfree  (D 28117)

Jan 25, 2013, 11:23 PM
Post #14 of 17 (1539 views)
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Re: [kuai43] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

Well if you intend to jump something that you're gonna cut away, then you need a third parachute (tertiary)...


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 26, 2013, 4:42 AM
Post #15 of 17 (1504 views)
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Re: [kuai43] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I had always thought that the d-bag was considered part of the H/C... which rather is a part-n-parcel component of the TSO'd system.

When it's sold, it is part of the assembly that you normally get, however most containers have no TSO'd main components. Usually it's just the harness and reserve container (including freebag and PC) that hold TSOs.

You could tie a bedsheet to your harness rings (the 3 ring ones) and jump it all you want, so long as the reserve is legal and you intend to land the 'main', you're fine.

So you're saying the main container itself is not part of the TSO and as far as the FAA is concerned, a certified rigger is not required for work performed on it?

Quote:
Subpart F—Parachute Riggers

§ 65.111 Certificate required.

(a) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating issued under this subpart and complies with §§ 65.127 through 65.133.

Emphasis mine.

ETA: I am NOT saying it's a good idea for every Joe Jumper out there to go start sewing shit to their assembly without some rigger input/overwatch.


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Jan 26, 2013, 5:28 AM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 26, 2013, 8:23 AM
Post #16 of 17 (1456 views)
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Re: [Remster] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I had always thought that the d-bag was considered part of the H/C... which rather is a part-n-parcel component of the TSO'd system.

If it was, all the RDS systems out there would be in violation of the TSO.

...and getting non-OEM main d-bags would not be allowed.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jan 26, 2013, 6:12 PM
Post #17 of 17 (1336 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] small canopy big container [In reply to] Can't Post

Once again only part of the story.

65.111
"(c) No person may maintain or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person—

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart; or

(2) Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger;"

emphasis mine. You can tie a bed sheet to it. But once you do it takes a master rigger to alter it. EVERYTHING that applies to a reserve applies to a main except the next person to jump it can pack it AND the rigger doesn't have to keep paper work. Yes, this makes it impossible to prove who did what to a main but it is still illegal to work on unless your a rigger.

BTW the current SIM on the USPA website is OUT OF DATE. The FAA regs are the previous version, not the current version.

And while main components are not covered under the TSO they are covered under the requirements to be rigger to maintain and alter and always have. MANY, MANY old and new riggers and manufacturers including many CEO's of gear companies used to get this wrong. Many of us were taught anybody could do anything to a main. That has never been true except technically from 2001 to 2009 or so when part 65.111 was written, in error by the FAA, that the next person jumping it could maintain or alter. This was a mistake in the writing in 2001 and not ever intended.


(This post was edited by councilman24 on Jan 26, 2013, 6:18 PM)



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