Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012

 

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Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Jan 4, 2013, 9:29 AM
Post #1 of 26 (6401 views)
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Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 Can't Post

This was already brought up in another thread but I had some people message me asking for details to be broken into another thread,

It seems on one of the weather days during the Sebastian Invasion Boogie with a lower cloud ceiling a group of jumpers took a group jump very low and it ended in having two jumpers having AAD fires and 2 others just avoiding them due to their faster opening mains. From what was passed on to me by a few people at the boogie it was sounding like this jump was a rodeo style jump where the passenger was wearing a gorilla costume and they were getting video and took the entire skydive low and lead to the AAD fires.


I was told that one of the people involved in this jump is also involved in a social media site specializing in skydiving videos... I expect that video will be out on this at some point soon.




Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jan 5, 2013, 7:18 AM
Post #3 of 26 (5652 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a good event for "thinking" wingsuiters. Seems many turned their brains off for this event. Wingsuit rodeo from 3500 feet? REALLY? Outside video(S) not pulling till a grand? REALLY? Multiple AAD fires? Come on, guys.




jjudd  (D 31065)

Jan 5, 2013, 9:57 AM
Post #5 of 26 (5510 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quite interesting.

I just heard also of another incident recently here in California last month with poor weather where the jumpers all decided to do a hop an pop jump. It was from 2000-2500ft and miraculously someone decided to and was allowed to wing suit on this jump. In addition to this the wingsuiter was using a highly loaded crossbrace(not a local jumper). This resulted in a low pull and subsequent linetwists with a cutaway with no injuries but pure stupidity. How they were even allowed on the plan is beyond me.

In addition to that there were several other cutaways and a low turn injury from this one load. Sounds like a very poorly briefed and planned jump by quite a few people.

Remember everyone a low pass is a immediate pull and there will be lots of canopy traffic. If its out of your skill or range don't jump there will always be another better sunny day in time.




Pteropus  (D 999999998)

Jan 5, 2013, 6:46 PM
Post #7 of 26 (5109 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...there were several other cutaways and a low turn injury from this one load. Sounds like a very poorly briefed and planned jump by quite a few people.

What is your theory on how hop 'n pop exits causes malfunctions and low turns?

Seems to me that there is no relationship between the two. They can occur on any jump, from any altitude. Hop 'n pops are no more prone to them than any other type of jump. There's nothing special to brief and plan in that regard.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jan 5, 2013, 7:00 PM
Post #8 of 26 (5087 views)
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Re: [Pteropus] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
...there were several other cutaways and a low turn injury from this one load. Sounds like a very poorly briefed and planned jump by quite a few people.

What is your theory on how hop 'n pop exits causes malfunctions and low turns?

Seems to me that there is no relationship between the two. They can occur on any jump, from any altitude. Hop 'n pops are no more prone to them than any other type of jump. There's nothing special to brief and plan in that regard.

I would agree... but then I do them regularly.

But consider the few number of low (<3k') jumps the current crop of turbine-babies make... I've seen whole Otters full of experienced jumpers who are nervous when a couple of us ask for jump run anywhere above 2k... (a "low-pass" is considered 5,500-7,500')

For some of these folks, they make night jumps, wing-suit jumps and high performance landings more often than they get out below 3k.

Yes it should be simple. Yes it shouldn't require a special brief, but sanity checks might be in order from the grey-hairs.

Just my $.02
JW


jjudd  (D 31065)

Jan 6, 2013, 11:00 AM
Post #9 of 26 (4664 views)
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Re: [Pteropus] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

No relation ship to cut aways other then that there is a lot less time to deal with malfunctions, so something you could deal with at 3.5 deployment may become a cutaway on opening at 2.0 for higher performance wings. Out at 2000 is going to be tough to set up for a bigger turn also if you arent in the best spot on exit and that may result in someone turning lower and quicker to be where they want for set up, lots of small factors tend to add up to bad choices generally speaking, also no relation but not an appropriate jump to be planning to do high performance with alot of traffic out at a low altitude..

Just saying it sounds like there was no plan for exits based on wingloadings, poor communication, and appropraite gear choice for the jump is all, wasnt trying to tie a relation to cutaways with low exits. just noting that there were other issues that happened on the jump and someone with a cutaway may end up below you if your planning to do a high performance landing so never count that out though this wasn't the case for the low turn


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jan 6, 2013, 11:12 AM
Post #10 of 26 (4641 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

While there was a handful of intentional low loads, several of the loads that were hop & pops were not planned as such.

They were done because of clouds which forced the lower altitudes.

And just for the record - there was a 90 degree limit on final turns for this event and they were pretty good at enforcing this.

.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Jan 6, 2013, 1:40 PM
Post #11 of 26 (4507 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

my post was for a different incident then sebastian. just an addition to a low pass with a wingsuit related incident on the west coast


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 6, 2013, 3:02 PM
Post #12 of 26 (4386 views)
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Re: [Pteropus] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

>What is your theory on how hop 'n pop exits causes malfunctions and low turns?

Planning complex dives from low exits often results in low pulls. These result in:

-Bad spots, which often cause landing injuries for many reasons (including low turns)
-Two-outs, which often lead to low cutaways/canopy transfers and resulting entanglement-type malfunctions

I've seen this happen several times - once on a dive I was on. One cutaway, one hard landing due to a two-out. Fortunately no one was seriously injured.


Pteropus  (D 999999998)

Jan 6, 2013, 7:39 PM
Post #13 of 26 (4177 views)
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Re: [billvon] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>What is your theory on how hop 'n pop exits causes malfunctions and low turns?

Planning complex dives from low exits often results in low pulls.

If it's a complex dive, it's not a hop 'n pop. A hop 'n pop by definition is a solo exit with a very short delay before pulling. I wouldn't call something like launching a 4-way, which requires tracking before opening, a hop 'n pop.








Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Jan 7, 2013, 7:09 AM
Post #17 of 26 (3753 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Warning on this thread. No attacks or insults will be permitted or those posters will be banned from this forum.


champu  (D 28302)

Jan 7, 2013, 8:45 AM
Post #18 of 26 (3626 views)
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Re: [jjudd, Skydivesg] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just heard also of another incident recently here in California last month with poor weather where the jumpers all decided to do a hop an pop jump.

If you're talking about the load I think you're talking about, this was in mid-November. The low-turn injury was a 90 degree turn... no traffic issues to speak of... he was low from the start of his base leg... turned low... rear risers all the way into the ground. I think he was probably a bit too amped up from sitting around all morning as happens on cloudy days, combined with a fairly low number of jumps, imho, for the canopy he was flying. He's lucky he wasn't hurt worse.

In reply to:
While there was a handful of intentional low loads, several of the loads that were hop & pops were not planned as such.

They were done because of clouds which forced the lower altitudes.

Anyway, back to the incident that started the thread... Sandy brings up an important point here. Hole-chasing days mean you need a plan A and a plan B. If the pilot can safely get you full altitude, great, do your plan A jump. Before you even get on the plane, however, you have to pick an altitude and say, "If we don't get X thousand feet, we're all doing solos or just not jumping," and then stick to it when you're up there and you don't get X thousand feet.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 7, 2013, 8:49 AM
Post #19 of 26 (3618 views)
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Re: [Pteropus] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

>If it's a complex dive, it's not a hop 'n pop.

And that's the problem. A dive that starts out as a hop and pop due to low ceilings has something very simple added to it (two people doing a linked exit) then something else (just turn one point; less than two seconds!) then something else (and then a donut) and then something else . . . .

And a dive that was planned for hop and pop altitudes turns into a dangerous incident. This train of events has happened a great many times to many people - including me.




pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 9, 2013, 10:19 PM
Post #21 of 26 (2769 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to clarify:
Post #2 was removed at the request of myself & the jumper involved, who I had quoted (perhaps over enthusiastically) from his facebook post to his 1000+ Friends, a post which he deleted later. We all understand how one doesn't always want everything one says to be quoted in print when there's a bit of a screwup.

So without copying anything verbatim, I'll just say that the deleted info basically confirms Phreezone's original post. The jumper in the gorilla suit riding the wingsuiter, deployed straight off the wingsuiter's back at lower altitude, below normal minimums. The two wingsuiters also in formation and taking video, deployed somewhat lower yet, enough that they got two-outs from their AAD's firing.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jan 10, 2013, 8:19 AM
Post #22 of 26 (2570 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I have heard that two of the people on this "gorilla" jump were also involved in the WA heli/wingsuit fiasco. True?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Jan 10, 2013, 9:48 AM
Post #23 of 26 (2513 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a few people pass info that at least one of the wingsuits flyers was also involved with the group that went from Sebastian to Washington to fly their wingsuits after they had the AAD fire. I do not believe the missing jumper was the one with the AAD fire but from what a few people have implied that the other jumper that was renting the helicopter in WA had the AAD fire due to his low pull at the Invasion Boogie. It was also implied from a few messages but no one has confirmed it 100% that the missing jumper was also at the Invasion Boogie.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 10, 2013, 9:54 AM
Post #24 of 26 (2507 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

He was.
There's a video of him flying wingie at Sebastian posted on FB.

ETA: Video here


(This post was edited by normiss on Jan 10, 2013, 9:59 AM)


rbignon  (D 237927)

Jan 16, 2013, 10:29 AM
Post #25 of 26 (1966 views)
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Re: [normiss] Multiple AAD fires - Sebastian - December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Kurt Was at the Invasion Boogie but he was not part of the gorilla jump.


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