Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12

 

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bcity4  (D 29740)

Oct 28, 2012, 5:36 PM
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Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 Can't Post

http://bigstory.ap.org/...rip-storm-approaches

Anybody know more details? I grew up out in SC and always enjoy stopping by Chester when I'm back in the area. Condolences to the family and DZ.


(This post was edited by bcity4 on Oct 28, 2012, 5:36 PM)


Southern_Man  (C License)

Oct 28, 2012, 6:49 PM
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Re: [bcity4] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

This story indicates a swoop gone bad, I believe: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/...er-hard-landing.html


jfill

Oct 28, 2012, 7:28 PM
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Re: [Southern_Man] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

I jumped at Skydive Carolina today and arrived at the airport about 20 minutes after it happened. The story's as the diver was doing some moves close to the ground and lost it and had a very rough landing. He was alive when medical personnel arrived at the scene. A helicopter land on the DZ and departed with him, although the news story states a little differently.

The jumping started about an hour or so later, but as expected the staff was visibly shaken. The staff at Skydive Carolina were very professional In their handling and throughout the day.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Oct 28, 2012, 8:22 PM
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Re: [jfill] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I jumped at Skydive Carolina today and arrived at the airport about 20 minutes after it happened. The story's as the diver was doing some moves close to the ground and lost it and had a very rough landing. He was alive when medical personnel arrived at the scene. A helicopter land on the DZ and departed with him, although the news story states a little differently.

The jumping started about an hour or so later, but as expected the staff was visibly shaken. The staff at Skydive Carolina were very professional In their handling and throughout the day.

moves close to the ground as in freestyle on a swoop??


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 28, 2012, 8:45 PM
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Re: [jtiflyer] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll guess that jfill -- registered today, 1 post total -- made his first jump ever today as a student, which would explain his not knowing the skydiver lingo. Just a guess though. He still reported the best he could on what he knows.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Oct 28, 2012, 8:48 PM
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Re: [jtiflyer] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

No.

I don't have all the details, but I'll post what I know for now to stop speculation and rumors.

The jumper in question was taking a canopy class (not one geared toward swooping) and it was one of MANY that he had taken (6+ by my count in the last 2 years or so). He was NOT a young hotshot pilot but rather an older much more mature gentleman, just someone who wanted to get better and constantly sought education.

At boarding time, the jumpers plan was to "work on his pattern and accuracy" and do either a double front approach, or a 90 degree turn to land.

On actual approach the jumper initiated a 270 degree turn too low to recover and impacted hard. Why, at this point, is still speculation. Traffic nor conditions are believed to be factors at this point.

The jumper had somewhere around 1000 jumps, was jumping a Katana 170 loaded around 1.3-1.4, and it was the first jump of the day. The jumper was very familiar with the DZ and was jumping the day before as well.

BSBD.
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Oct 28, 2012, 8:50 PM)


shaggio  (D 24763)

Oct 29, 2012, 4:48 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

Ian pretty much said it all. The only thing that I will add is that traffic was not a factor as he was the first one down and the ground winds were in the 5 to 10 range when the jump occured.


Amyr  (C License)

Oct 29, 2012, 5:57 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The jumper was very familiar with the DZ and was jumping the day before as well.

I was taking that canopy class Saturday. At 12pm the DZ was shut down and the pilots sent home there where no loads run on Saturday So he could not have jumped at Chester Saturday


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Oct 29, 2012, 6:33 AM
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Re: [Amyr] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

I stand corrected then. However, the fact remains that the jumper was well familiar with SDC.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 29, 2012, 6:43 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The jumper had somewhere around 1000 jumps, was jumping a Katana 170 loaded around 1.3-1.4,

the jumpers plan was to "work on his pattern and accuracy" and do either a double front approach, or a 90 degree turn to land.

I do not know if the following was a factor in this incident. but it's something I have seen before in circumstances similar to this -

Jumpers will often times make a mistake in equipment selection based on their jump numbers or wing loading, as opposed to their abilities with a canopy.

Just because you have 1000 jumps does not mean that you are qualified to jump a high-performance canopy. Jump numbers are one facet of readiness, with the others being training and experience with 'higher' performance canopies.

Additionally, just choosing a larger high-performance canopy to result in a lower WL does not remove the 'high' from the 'high performance'. A Katana or Velo is still a Katana or Velo, regardless of the WL.

Again, I don't know if it's a factor here, but even at 1.3 or 1.4, if you uncork a Katana with a 270, or similar 'big' turn, it will surprise the shit out of you turn into something you're not expecting. As easy-going and managable as it may seem with straight in landings, or 90 degree approaches, based on it's line trim and design, it will build speed and lose altitude very quickly if given the opportunity.

Unless YOU are a high performance pilot, you should not be jumping a high performance canopy. They are terribly unforgiving, and not well suited to learning high performance canopy flight. If you want to learn to swoop, start with a lower performance canopy like a Sabre2 or Pilot. Learn to fly that canopy in a high-performance fashion, and once you are good at that, then move to a high-performance canopy.

The idea is to deal with one 'thing' at a time. If you don't know swooping, make the swoops your one 'thing'. Once you know swooping, the high-performance canopy can be your new 'thing'.

It's not a rite of passage or a badge of honor to jump a high performance canopy. It's an end-game to a long and involved process of developing the skills and experience to handle the wing and what it can do. There is no way to 'safely' jump that type of wing without doing the work, and having the neccesary skills and training in place before hooking one up to your rig.


Bertt  (D 99999)

Oct 29, 2012, 10:10 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

Which brings up the question: How many jumps did he have on that canopy? Anybody know?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 29, 2012, 10:34 AM
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Re: [Bertt] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Which brings up the question: How many jumps did he have on that canopy?

That is one question, but again, even if it was 800 jumps on that canopy, if he was not a swooper beforehand, that is not the canopy to use when learning to swoop. That is a canopy to use when you already know how to swoop, and want to take it to another level.

A jumper who delcares that they intend to work on 'pattern work and doulbe fronts or 90 degree approaches', should not have been on that wing. Those skills are rudimentary in the scope of jumping a Katana, and things you should be an 'expert' with before jumping one.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Oct 29, 2012, 11:07 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The jumper in question was taking a canopy class (not one geared toward swooping)

Quote:
On actual approach the jumper initiated a 270 degree turn

Huh? Last time I checked...a 270 was a pretty solid degree of turn which leads up to a pretty agressive "swoop".


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Oct 29, 2012, 11:11 AM)


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Oct 29, 2012, 11:19 AM
Post #14 of 41 (2971 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

Try reading the entire post again


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Oct 29, 2012, 11:51 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

Fair enough, I missed that he didn't jump what he had intended to do, but your post is basically vouching for him, indicating that he was not a hotshot and didn't swoop, but he swooped.

1000 jumps (speculation?), not wanting to swoop, taken MANY canopy courses, jumping a Katana....but didn't want to swoop?? I hate to say it, but based on that information, it seems pretty clear that he DID intend to swoop.


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Oct 29, 2012, 12:03 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

Dropped toggle, dropped riser, medical condition, avoidance turn...

Lots of things can lead to an unintentional 270.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Oct 29, 2012, 12:06 PM
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Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
At boarding time, the jumpers plan was to "work on his pattern and accuracy" and do either a double front approach, or a 90 degree turn to land.

Double fronts or 90 degree (front) turn on landing sounds like the beginning stages of learning to test the waters with higher performance landings.


(This post was edited by SEREJumper on Oct 29, 2012, 12:06 PM)


5.samadhi

Oct 29, 2012, 12:15 PM
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Re: [bcity4] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

were wind conditions stable or might they have played some role here?

blue skies


DocPop  (C License)

Oct 29, 2012, 12:37 PM
Post #19 of 41 (2815 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

1000 jumps (speculation?), not wanting to swoop, taken MANY canopy courses, jumping a Katana....but didn't want to swoop?? I hate to say it, but based on that information, it seems pretty clear that he DID intend to swoop.

I disagree. I know people who jump Katanas who don't touch their fronts.

I totally agree that it is the wrong tool for the job, but that doesn't mean you can just assume that someone with a Katana wants to swoop.


DocPop  (C License)

Oct 29, 2012, 12:40 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
were wind conditions stable or might they have played some role here?

blue skies

Quote:
From Ian:

Traffic nor conditions are believed to be factors at this point.

Quote:
From shaggio:

The only thing that I will add is that traffic was not a factor as he was the first one down and the ground winds were in the 5 to 10 range when the jump occured.


(This post was edited by DocPop on Oct 29, 2012, 12:41 PM)


5.samadhi

Oct 29, 2012, 1:23 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd like to hear from somebody there whether the wx conditions were funky. With this storm coming in I was expecting the east coast to have some funky stuff going on with turbulence.

Not saying this played a role just want to find out for sure about this in relation to this incident.


trigger  (D 101390)

Oct 29, 2012, 1:24 PM
Post #22 of 41 (2691 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I totally agree that it is the wrong tool for the job, but that doesn't mean you can just assume that someone with a Katana wants to swoop.

Yes i also know someone who jumps a Katana who doesn't swoop but wants to learn to swoop ( sound familiar ) glad you're enlightened on that one

It's been said a countless number of times on these forums that Katana's, Crossfires or any other elliptical hp canopy isn't the right tool to start with when learning to swoop, but whose to say that the guy in this incident intentionally pulled a 270 to final inspite of his canopy selection.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Oct 29, 2012, 1:27 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

I've heard of (and seen) people who end up at the point where they would like to begin their 90 or turn to final at an altitude higher than planned, and try to whip around a 270 the other direction to compensate. Not saying its the case, but I've seen it before....granted from a much newer jumper.


DocPop  (C License)

Oct 29, 2012, 2:14 PM
Post #24 of 41 (2581 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd like to hear from somebody there whether the wx conditions were funky. With this storm coming in I was expecting the east coast to have some funky stuff going on with turbulence.

Not saying this played a role just want to find out for sure about this in relation to this incident.

So the two people above who said the conditions were fine are not enough for you?

What are you looking for exactly?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Oct 29, 2012, 3:33 PM
Post #25 of 41 (2443 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Fatality-- Skydive Carolina 28 Oct 12 [In reply to] Can't Post

The conditions did not play a role in this. The jumper intentionally initiated a HP 270 degree turn for landing even though he stated this was not his intention prior to boarding the aircraft. Why, I don't pretend to know.

To answer some other posts, he'd been jumping the wing for the last 3 seasons and had somewhere around 300-400 jumps on it.

Ian


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