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green light does not mean GO!

 

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dreamtoy  (C 41098)

Oct 12, 2012, 6:25 PM
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green light does not mean GO! Can't Post

so i'm curios as to how many people still spot to make sure they are getting out at a proper location from the plane. when the green light comes on people are in such a rush for the groups to jump out the plane without spotting. several times i have spotted and told myself and who ever i am jumping with that this is too far and let people behind me go and more then once those same pushy people; landed out and were not even close to landing back at dz. does anyone else notice poor spotting a lot from newer skydivers and experienced ones alike?


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 12, 2012, 6:59 PM
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Re: [dreamtoy] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

My favorite is kneeling in the door of an Otter on a solo hop-n-pop specific to swoop train on the pond. When the green light comes on I'm still watching the spot, since I want the *perfect* spot to put me in the best place to allow me the time to pull in the RDS and get cleaned up. There is always some semi-experienced jumper (100-500 jumps) saying "Hey, GREEN light, go!" I just smile at them and go back to my task at hand. All of that crazy spotting usually only takes 2-5 seconds if the jump pilot is worth a damn, which is an eternity to some jumpers.

That, however, is spotting for me and me only. When spotting a full Otter load of jumpers at altitude, it is a compromise for the whole load. The first group will need to buck winds a little to make their downwind leg and the last group will need to float it in a little to make their downwind leg.


Shredex

Oct 12, 2012, 7:24 PM
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Re: [dreamtoy] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

Idk, our pilot does a bang up job having that light on at the right time using the GPS system. I have yet to see any off landings.


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 12, 2012, 9:47 PM
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Re: [dreamtoy] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so i'm curios as to how many people still spot to make sure they are getting out at a proper location from the plane. when the green light comes on people are in such a rush for the groups to jump out the plane without spotting. several times i have spotted and told myself and who ever i am jumping with that this is too far and let people behind me go and more then once those same pushy people; landed out and were not even close to landing back at dz. does anyone else notice poor spotting a lot from newer skydivers and experienced ones alike?

IMO, GPS is one of the best and the worst things that's happened to skydivers.

Like AggieDave said, there does always seem to be someone nowhere near the door screaming at you to 'GO!!' as soon as the light comes on.

As an AFF-I who's done a lot of 4-way FS (as well as a lot of freefly and wingsuit), I've seen the perspective of all parties on the plane...and my general rule is that people should STFU unless they're looking out the door. There's nothing like sticking your head out the door to spot a 4-way FS jump and realizing you're a mile from the DZ, and the green light just came on early.

At the same time, I do also see a lot of what you're talking about - usually amongst newer skydivers. When they land off, I generally try and meet them back at the DZ to talk about "What have we learned here?", and re-iterate that green does not mean GO. When you leave the plane is *your* responsibility. Don't get out unless you can make it back to the airport safely.

The experienced FS skydivers, on the other hand, tend to not go until they can get back safely. I'd vote them "Most likely to take off their helmet in the door and cup an ear at the folks yelling from the front." The experienced freeflyers and wingsuiters are usually the ones doing the hollering. They should know better...but most of the loud ones probably went straight from A-license to freeflying, and then to wingsuiting, thus never having to sit next to the door when the pilot turns on the green light a long ways out.

Long story short - trust your eyes. Don't screw the spot...but don't screw yourself either. (But sounds like you already get that.) Smile


(This post was edited by LloydDobbler on Oct 12, 2012, 9:49 PM)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Oct 12, 2012, 10:01 PM
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Re: [LloydDobbler] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

The experienced FS skydivers are the ones most likely to wait until they get a good spot for themselves while screwing the people at the front of the plane.
Most days the GPS/pilot are better at spotting for the whole load than the cunt at the door. If this is consistantly not true the pilot needs retraining. The GPS on the other hand never makes mistakes.


(This post was edited by Andrewwhyte on Oct 12, 2012, 10:02 PM)


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Oct 12, 2012, 10:15 PM
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The experienced FS skydivers are the ones most likely to wait until they get a good spot for themselves while screwing the people at the front of the plane.
Most days the GPS/pilot are better at spotting for the whole load than the cunt at the door. If this is consistantly not true the pilot needs retraining. The GPS on the other hand never makes mistakes.

That is some of the funniest shit I have ever read. I have seen pilots mis-read a GPS, I have seen a slow refreshing GPS. I have also seen a student spot an entire otter perfectly and somebody with 10k jump screw an entire kingair load.

Nobody and nothing are perfect.

And as for the FS "cunts" as you call them, I have seen a 2 way freefly take longer in the door than an 8-way FS.


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Oct 12, 2012, 10:30 PM
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Re: [dreamtoy] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been in the sport since July 7, and I spot. They drill that into you. I think it was on an AFF jump, my instructor told me he wanted me to look out the door and tell him when we got on the ground where we were relative to the swoop pond when we got out (We had just passed it heading northwest.)

I look for the runway, swoop pond, the running track to the south, other planes and, if I'm not first, the person who jumped just before me. Gives me something to do while waiting for separation or the light to turn green.

So far I've always liked what I've seen. If I didn't, I wouldn't jump. I was supposed to do a "Long spot" during a hop and pop for my canopy course, but I really didn't feel that comfortable going beyond the road at the end of the runway, so I probably jumped that one sooner than I was supposed to. I think I got more done with sight picture on my 11K high pull than on that long spot anyway. That was really a long time to look at the scenery and play with the canopy Smile


Shredex

Oct 12, 2012, 10:37 PM
Post #8 of 77 (3548 views)
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Re: [dreamtoy] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

They discussed this issue on SkydiveRadio a few weeks ago:
http://ec.libsyn.com/...c52&c_id=4859568

Skip to 1:13:00


j5okeefe  (C 40265)

Oct 12, 2012, 10:39 PM
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Re: [LloydDobbler] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that green light does not always mean"GO!" I'm used to spotting - the vast majority of my jumps are from a Cessna 182. However I was at a nearby turbine DZ around 110 jumps or so and there was one solo ahead of me, me, a student, then tandems. As soon as the door opened and the green light came on the TI behind the pilot started SCREAMING to get the **** out of the plane. I didn't want to be "that guy" to the DZ staff and locals so I just jumped. I was over a mile down wind of the DZ when I opened. I made it back with about 200' to spare, and several jumpers including one tandem landed off.

TL;DR - People who yell "GO!" at green light and aren't near the door can shove it.


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 12, 2012, 10:44 PM
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The experienced FS skydivers are the ones most likely to wait until they get a good spot for themselves while screwing the people at the front of the plane.
Most days the GPS/pilot are better at spotting for the whole load than the cunt at the door. If this is consistantly not true the pilot needs retraining. The GPS on the other hand never makes mistakes.

Agreed with the other poster that the bit about the GPS never making mistakes is a bit laughable. I'm guessing your eyes aren't the best altimeter, either? Wink

That's a pretty broad generalization. It also sounds like you're almost never one of the experienced FS skydivers at the door. Otherwise, you'd know how it goes. (Or maybe it's different in Canada).

Almost all of the experienced FS skydivers I know screw themselves over more than others - the freeflyers always make it back, seeing as how they get out right over the landing area, while the first FS jumpers out often find themselves hanging on the rears to get back. Those who know how to spot know that you spot for the entire load, not for yourself.

(And more importantly, if your spot is screwed by the "cunt at the door," who said you have to get out of the plane? Go-arounds happen (they shouldn't happen regularly, but they happen). Goes back to trusting your eyes, rather than the green light.)


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 12, 2012, 10:47 PM
Post #11 of 77 (3540 views)
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Re: [FlyingRhenquest] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've been in the sport since July 7, and I spot. They drill that into you. I think it was on an AFF jump, my instructor told me he wanted me to look out the door and tell him when we got on the ground where we were relative to the swoop pond when we got out (We had just passed it heading northwest.)

I look for the runway, swoop pond, the running track to the south, other planes and, if I'm not first, the person who jumped just before me. Gives me something to do while waiting for separation or the light to turn green.

So far I've always liked what I've seen. If I didn't, I wouldn't jump. I was supposed to do a "Long spot" during a hop and pop for my canopy course, but I really didn't feel that comfortable going beyond the road at the end of the runway, so I probably jumped that one sooner than I was supposed to. I think I got more done with sight picture on my 11K high pull than on that long spot anyway. That was really a long time to look at the scenery and play with the canopy Smile

Glad to hear we're doing it right. Smile

(But seriously - you should give the long spot a try sometime. Talk to Stu & Justin first - they've been doing this a while, & won't steer you wrong.) Wink


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 13, 2012, 12:07 AM
Post #12 of 77 (3517 views)
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Re: [j5okeefe] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
TL;DR - People who yell "GO!" at green light and aren't near the door can shove it.

You are right TIs are really bad about it. I call it the lemming light. What I would do when they start yelling was turn around take my helmet off and ask them what they said I couldnt hear. Wink

Sparky


LyraM45  (B 26378)

Oct 13, 2012, 6:38 AM
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Re: [dreamtoy] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

Over the years I've not returned to 2 DZ's because of the policy there that green means go and everybody shouts at you to get the feck out of the plane as soon as the light comes on. One DZ it happened over towering CB clouds that totally obscured the DZ, and another DZ it happened when I spotted traffic underneath of us. When we were all back on the ground, I said to a videographer/instructor that I hesitated because I saw traffic under us, and the response from this person was "it doesn't matter. You have to get out here. There are no go arounds, and if you don't like it, go jump some place else." So, I did exactly that and never looked back.

Just last month I was 5th out from the end of an otter load, saw it was a long spot, told the people behind me and preceded to let them go ahead of me if they wanted. I was going to ride the plane down if I didn't get another pass, but the pilot was kind enough to give it to me even though I was the last one out. The 5 ahead of me landed out.

For the most part, green does NOT mean go, especially if it means getting out and busting FAR's (traffic, weather, etc). But, it doesn't mean screwing a whole load behind you if you're first out. So, make smart decisions and keep a good balance with the rest of the load in mind.


cocheese  (D 24000)

Oct 13, 2012, 7:12 AM
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Re: [dreamtoy] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

With the right canopy choice, wind speeds, and pull altitude, I don't mind too much about being a little off on the spot these days.

Putting a gallon of fuel in the air per jumper, bothers me more.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 13, 2012, 8:19 AM
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Re: [dreamtoy] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

There have been days where I've suspected we'd have a short spot due to high winds. I told the first TI on the bench that if the green light came on early, I was gonna be slow in the door. I took about an extra 5-6 seconds before we climbed out. Even so, some of the light ladies on our load barely made it to the DZ. Everyone was cool with it since they had been forewarned.

Unfortunately you can't always predict when the light will come on too early. I've gone short and long and landed out, once with an AFF student. The occasional mistake I can forgive, but I give the pilot feedback so he can adjust his jump run. If the pilot is okay with people landing out, he needs to review his job definition.


dthames  (B 37674)

Oct 13, 2012, 8:30 AM
Post #16 of 77 (3363 views)
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Re: [j5okeefe] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

At one of the DZs that I visit, they sometimes to a downwind jump run. It is always good to pay attention to upwind or downwnd jump run as you consider your exit.

With my light WL, I don't mind being a long, upwind, if it will help someone else out. So I am out right away if first out on a downwind run, and things look okay below.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Oct 13, 2012, 11:05 AM
Post #17 of 77 (3303 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
saying "Hey, GREEN light, go!"
If it's a friend in the door, I'm usually the asshole yelling GO GO GO GREEN LIGHT GO GO GO! Sly


dreamtoy  (C 41098)

Oct 13, 2012, 11:50 AM
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Re: [dthames] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

i am still new in this sport and want to do this long term; so i try my best to be safe as possible and not hurt myself or anyone else. its crazy when i see more experienced guys that dont know what the uppers, mids and lower winds are doing or are not sure which way jump run is going exactly. the first thing i do when i show up to dz is check the winds and consistently monitor it through out the day. now i def dont know everything but this stuff was drilled into my head during training. what sucks is when i try to inform someone who has more experience jump wise then me, they look at me crazy like what the hell do you know; i say oh well, do what you want and go on my way.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 13, 2012, 12:06 PM
Post #19 of 77 (3264 views)
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Re: [Remster] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
saying "Hey, GREEN light, go!"
If it's a friend in the door, I'm usually the asshole yelling GO GO GO GREEN LIGHT GO GO GO! Sly

Many years ago when in Florida at a winter training camp, we happened to be doing 10 man stack outs at 5K.

Lights come on, me and another open the door of the Otter (Franken-otter no less) and start spotting for the Team. Light changes to green, yelling from the RW, Vidiots, VRW, AFF's and T-I's ensues.

I turn and ask "What?" they yell the light is green, i respond "Sorry, Color blind" as I point at my eyes and turn bacl to spotting, we are way short!

The closest RW dude taps my partner in the door and yells "Green Light" (the RW dude is wearing a full face)

My spotting partner signs back "I'm Deaf" (he wasn't but was a signer). RW due looks at me and yells, "what was that?"

I say, "He said he is deaf" Now we are in the right spot for the 10 of us to do our thing, I wave my hand out the door in front if my spotting partners face he looks at me and I make like I am reaching up to pull the chain on a ceiling light and then point at the lights. He smiles, Nods and then waves his hand at us all and using his fingers counts to three and leaves, a perfect four count exit count.

We all follow.

For two days after, if we had the door, when the lights came on, the whole plane would "turn on the ceiling light".Laugh

Matt


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Oct 13, 2012, 12:07 PM
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Re: [LloydDobbler] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Glad to hear we're doing it right. Smile

(But seriously - you should give the long spot a try sometime. Talk to Stu & Justin first - they've been doing this a while, & won't steer you wrong.) Wink

I'll try to find out some more details (like just how long to go) next time I take the canopy course again. I'm planning to do it once I get my own gear, to get a better feel for landing my own stuff (The video of the landings and pointers from the instructor were incredibly helpful.)


EOCS  (C License)

Oct 13, 2012, 1:27 PM
Post #21 of 77 (3230 views)
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Re: [dreamtoy] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

At our DZ we dont have a green light but the pilot give the load master a 2 min and 1 min warning.. at the one min warning the load master opens the door and looks where we are and spots for the load. usually the 1 min warning is dead on but from time to time its totally off. So i would suggest that the green light its more of a GO to spotting then GTFO of the plane.

Recently i have to admit ive not been looking down as much as i should before exit and its something im aware of and working on fixing.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Oct 13, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #22 of 77 (3207 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sly


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 13, 2012, 2:45 PM
Post #23 of 77 (3179 views)
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Re: [Remster] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

Same DZ a few years later.

At 14K in the CASA, I'm spotting from the ramp, lights are green we are so short we aren't even going to make the same county. I stand up and yell "Keep going we are way short!" I am with a 12 way, the 8 way behind us steps up and jams counts and goes. The 12 way look sat me, I sit down and wait. Finally the DZ is under us, we still need a bit, but the 12 way will take a moment, so we stand, jam and go.

The 8 way never jumped the rest f the day. The last guy in made the beer light, we exited on load 3 of a 24 CASA load day.

Matt


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Oct 13, 2012, 3:11 PM
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Re: [LloydDobbler] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Most likely to take off their helmet in the door and cup an ear at the folks yelling from the front."

LaughLaughLaugh
Been there and done that too.

Whaaaaat? Don't go? What are you saying back there?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Oct 13, 2012, 3:23 PM
Post #25 of 77 (3153 views)
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Re: [FlyingRhenquest] green light does not mean GO! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've been in the sport since July 7, and I spot. They drill that into you. I think it was on an AFF jump, my instructor told me he wanted me to look out the door and tell him when we got on the ground where we were relative to the swoop pond when we got out (We had just passed it heading northwest.)

I look for the runway, swoop pond, the running track to the south, other planes and, if I'm not first, the person who jumped just before me. Gives me something to do while waiting for separation or the light to turn green.

Sorry man. If that is all they taught you to do and called it spotting, you got cheated. That is not spotting. That is only looking out the door for traffic, clouds and location (ands ground track. There's much more to it. Spotting is determining where you want to be when you step the plane.

What is probably happening with you is that the "big boys" are determining the spot and telling where it is, i.e. "Over the swoop pond." so that you can tell them when you get there.

Believe me, you'll want to learn how to really spot..one day you may be guy determining that exit point for the entire load.

Have you read the SIM for spotting?


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