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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris?????

 

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mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 4, 2012, 5:03 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? Can't Post

I’ve noticed that several posters in this tread list in their profile they are “wing suit instructors”. Who determines who is an instructor? What are requirements to become a “wing suit instructor”? Is there training syllabus or lesson plan of some type the “wing suit instructors” follow or is every man for themselves?

Sparky


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 4, 2012, 6:33 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would venture it is in reference to a wingsuit manufacturer rating.
In the US anyway.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 4, 2012, 7:50 PM
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would venture it is in reference to a wingsuit manufacturer rating.
In the US anyway.

Everyone is rushing to explain who anointed them “wing suit instructor”. Wonder why?

Sparky


WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 4, 2012, 10:08 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I would venture it is in reference to a wingsuit manufacturer rating.
In the US anyway.

Everyone is rushing to explain who anointed them “wing suit instructor”. Wonder why?

Sparky

Mine came from FlockU. It is as made up as all the others. Just like Canopy Coach is a non existent rating too.


FlyingPortagee  (A 64429)

Oct 4, 2012, 11:12 PM
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know you hate me Sparky. You make a good point. I only trust Spotted Eagle. Everyone else makes me wonder... There needs to be official structure for this stuff. I think the most important thing i have learned in skydiving is that a "minor" mishap can quickly escalate to full blown disaster. Instructors have to be Experts and I suspect EVERY instructor will tell you they are an expert.


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 5, 2012, 12:09 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Who determines who is an instructor?

It's not very complicated, and the operative word is "what" not "who". If you instruct someone on how to learn a new skill, then you are an instructor. Whether you are a yoga instructor, a Spanish instructor, a skydiving instructor, or a wingsuit instructor, it's pretty straightforward. You don't have to be a skygod or even a skydiver to understand this, just an english speaking human person.

Now, an AFF skydiving instructor is one certified by the USPA's AFF program.

A wingsuit instructor (notice the lack of certification/qualification) is simply somebody who teaches people to fly wingsuits. Again, it's not very complicated. Perhaps you should take an issue up with DZ.com, since they provide the option of specifying "wingsuit instructor" in your profile. Or maybe that option is just a reflection of the current reality, the absence of a standard. Personally, I've trained 50+ students (all many years ago), and I have a BMI rating (issued by a defunct company), which was held to a (non-universal) standard, and did come with a non-trivial qual process (though not all non-universal standards do). All that notwithstanding, I have no problem calling myself a wingsuit instructor... because I can teach you how to fly a wingsuit, if you want.

Even in the presence of a standard, that does not exclude instructors not belonging to the standard from claiming to be instructors. If I were wealthy and owned a small island, my own government, and an airplane, I could teach people to skydive. I would not be inaccurate in calling myself a skydiving instructor, even if I had no certifications for what I was doing.


(This post was edited by The111 on Oct 5, 2012, 12:12 AM)


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 5, 2012, 12:10 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I would venture it is in reference to a wingsuit manufacturer rating.
In the US anyway.

Everyone is rushing to explain who anointed them “wing suit instructor”. Wonder why?

Sparky

I'd imagine it's because your post was wildly off topic in the worst place to post off topic crap: a thread about a human who tragically died doing what she loved. Now that the post is in the right place, I'm happy to respond. See above.


FlyingPortagee  (A 64429)

Oct 5, 2012, 12:19 AM
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Re: [The111] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

How many people have died as a result of questionable yoga instruction? Can you really compare wingsuit to YOGA???????????.....and more???????


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 5, 2012, 12:28 AM
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the Perris fatality thread I noticed that 9 of the posters listed “wing suit instructor” in their profile. One listed “USPA wing suit instructor”.

WWS you say yours is from Flock U. Do they have a course curriculum or lesson plan that you teach from of do you mostly wing it. (No pun intended)

What experience and/or requirements are needed to qualify for one of the various “wing suit instructor” ratings.

One wing suit flyer states they are PASA wing suit I/E. From what I have been able to find, PASA doesn’t even have and wing suit instructors rating much less and I/E.

While I am sure most of those that claim “wing suit instructor” status are capable but I also think there are a few that are squirrels pumping their ego.

Without some recognized origination pulling all the loose ends together and develop some structure all you have is chaos.

I don’t have a dog in this fight I am just offering my opinion as an outsider and am not out to offend anyone.

Sparky


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Oct 5, 2012, 12:41 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I did my wingsuit training in Gap with Fly Your Body (S-Fly, (Zun, Jean Loic Albert et al)) a few years ago. It was a fairly regimented procedure with excellent instruction.

At the same time there was an 'Instructors course' on. This was run by FYB to approve people to promote and train on their equipment. People had come from all over France (and one from Belgium I think) to learn from these guys. It worked well for us students as we had an instructor who, in turn, had an instructor so we had double the input. Not all of the people on the instructors course were approved.

There doesn't seem to be a universal (or even national) approved rating but for me it was good to know that the instructors were being put through the ropes by the manufacturer.


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 5, 2012, 1:56 AM
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How many people have died as a result of questionable yoga instruction? Can you really compare wingsuit to YOGA???????????.....and more???????

I'm doing no such thing. I am simply clarifying the definition of the word instructor.

Are there bad wingsuit instructors out there? Yes.
Can you die from bad wingsuit instruction? Yes.

However, a the world's worst wingsuit instructor, who kills hundreds of students (this is of course a hypothetical person), is still a wingsuit instructor.

The question "what makes someone an instructor" is radically different from the question "who certified this instructor?"


birdynamnam  (D 179)

Oct 5, 2012, 5:22 AM
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Re: [The111] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

isn't this out of topic and also feeding some I hate wingsuit instructor trolls out there? Just asking. IMHO It is way more interesting that nobody questions elliptical canopies being used at big ways. It is no guarantee that no problems like this will happen but it will improve things for sure. Yes I know about w/l as well..... bring it on elliptical people, and while you are at it pls defend your choice if you use that canopy type for big ways.


WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 5, 2012, 5:48 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
WWS you say yours is from Flock U. Do they have a course curriculum or lesson plan that you teach from of do you mostly wing it. (No pun intended)



Sparky

Yes. There is course material including flight planners. All of the material I have seen is very similar, I have not seen anything dramatically different in what is being taught. Elsinore Wingsuit School has taken it to a new level and that is applaudable.

Winging it (funny) would not be an ideal approach. The structure is important so you cover what matters and don't go off spending time on topics that are not initially important. A first flight is focused mostly on safety and little on performance (relatively).

FlockU to my knowledge required the instructors to have a USPA Coach rating, at least they did for me. I know PFC does also. This is a good way to give some sort of minimum teaching standard to the program.

You will notice in my profile USPA Coach and Wingsuit Instructor. I would suggest people looking for Wingsuit education look for the teacher to have some form of professional teaching standard and a USPA rating would be best.


piisfish

Oct 5, 2012, 6:00 AM
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In my profile it says Wingsuit Instructor, but I am not really an Instructor, I am a Phoenix-Fly First-Flight-Coach.
But DZ.com doesn't let me be a coach instead of an instructor.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 5, 2012, 6:16 AM
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

"I would suggest people looking for Wingsuit education look for the teacher to have some form of professional teaching standard and a USPA rating would be best. "

I'm impressed. It appears you get it!
LaughLaughLaugh


WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 5, 2012, 6:31 AM
Post #16 of 53 (3076 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"I would suggest people looking for Wingsuit education look for the teacher to have some form of professional teaching standard and a USPA rating would be best. "

I'm impressed. It appears you get it!
LaughLaughLaugh

That might have come across as a joe biden moment. Wink What I mean is if you want someone to teach you to wingsuit they should at least be a USPA Coach...or AFFI...or TI...but they should have proved they know how to communicate.

Either way...you should be impressed. Wink

I am less against a USPA WSI than I once was...but am not all the way there yet either. That will be my John Kerry flip flopper moment.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 5, 2012, 7:03 AM
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for understanding what I meant.
That seems rather difficult here sometimes.

Cool


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 5, 2012, 7:06 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I’ve noticed that several posters in this tread list in their profile they are “wing suit instructors”. Who determines who is an instructor? What are requirements to become a “wing suit instructor”? Is there training syllabus or lesson plan of some type the “wing suit instructors” follow or is every man for themselves?

Sparky

Right now it is like some Freefly Schools or Canopy Schools, in which experienced people provide instruction in an advanced area of skydiving. If you provide instruction, you are an instructor, right?

I am in favor of a robust way of qualifying people to provide instruction. I am in favor of a standard curriculum defining areas to be covered. I am strongly opposed to the proposal presented to USPA, however, setting up a parallel bureaucracy to the AFF system with I's, I/E's, course directors, evaluators.... etc. Teaching an experienced, licensed skydiver the basics of safe wingsuit flight is not a parallel activity to teaching a whuffo how to skydive.


(This post was edited by kallend on Oct 5, 2012, 7:07 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 5, 2012, 7:09 AM
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Re: [kallend] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

You, like a few others, are saying you support what you don't want.
"We want a proper instruction process. Just don't call it anything."
Crazy
I don't understand.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 5, 2012, 7:10 AM
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What I mean is if you want someone to teach you to wingsuit they should at least be a USPA Coach...or AFFI...or TI...but they should have proved they know how to communicate.

Besides communication skills, what aspect of USPA coach, AFFI or TI qualification is relevant to wingsuits?


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 5, 2012, 7:14 AM
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You, like a few others, are saying you support what you don't want.
"We want a proper instruction process. Just don't call it anything."
Crazy
I don't understand.

That's because you don't want to understand.

It is not necessary to have a parallel system to AFF in order to qualify someone to teach safe WS exits, WS spotting, WS deployment... Yet that is the proposal that was presented to UPSA.

As I understand it, the UK BPA and the South African PASA have systems in place that are far simpler.


(This post was edited by kallend on Oct 5, 2012, 7:15 AM)


WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 5, 2012, 7:16 AM
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Re: [kallend] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What I mean is if you want someone to teach you to wingsuit they should at least be a USPA Coach...or AFFI...or TI...but they should have proved they know how to communicate.

Besides communication skills, what aspect of USPA coach, AFFI or TI qualification is relevant to wingsuits?

To me it demonstrates that you take coaching\instructing seriously. You have passed a test that shows you can communicate AND prioritize correctly.

For example the TI that lost his rating for letting granny fall out of the harness would be a good example of someone I wouldn't want teaching folks how to drive let alone wingsuit.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 5, 2012, 7:21 AM
Post #23 of 53 (3023 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
What I mean is if you want someone to teach you to wingsuit they should at least be a USPA Coach...or AFFI...or TI...but they should have proved they know how to communicate.

Besides communication skills, what aspect of USPA coach, AFFI or TI qualification is relevant to wingsuits?

To me it demonstrates that you take coaching\instructing seriously. You have passed a test that shows you can communicate AND prioritize correctly.

.

So would, say, a high school teacher have demonstrated that she takes instructing seriously? She has certainly shown that she can communicate AND prioritize correctly.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 5, 2012, 7:27 AM
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Re: [kallend] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

As do the students...so why do we have college???


WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 5, 2012, 7:33 AM
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Re: [kallend] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
What I mean is if you want someone to teach you to wingsuit they should at least be a USPA Coach...or AFFI...or TI...but they should have proved they know how to communicate.

Besides communication skills, what aspect of USPA coach, AFFI or TI qualification is relevant to wingsuits?

To me it demonstrates that you take coaching\instructing seriously. You have passed a test that shows you can communicate AND prioritize correctly.

.

So would, say, a high school teacher have demonstrated that she takes instructing seriously? She has certainly shown that she can communicate AND prioritize correctly.

Yes, I would trust that person a lot more over your average joe. Like I said:

"I would suggest people looking for Wingsuit education look for the teacher to have some form of professional teaching standard and a USPA rating would be best. "

For me that could be a PADI, PSIA...whatever. Someone that has taught is always going to trump someone that has not, in my opinion. I am sure there are crappy instructors of all kinds out there so that is a different argument that we can start next.. Wink

A USPA instructor rating (Caoch, AFFI....) would be more relevant of course.


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