Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee

 

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celayne  (D 14528)

Sep 16, 2012, 8:20 AM
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Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee Can't Post

Forgive me if this has been discussed before but I haven't seen any threads on it. My DZO informed me that come January 2013 the government is going to implement a new tax by charging airplanes $100 each time they contact ATC. Does anybody know if this is going to impact jump planes?


http://www.aviationweek.com/...9_2011_p0-371735.xml


normiss

Sep 16, 2012, 8:29 AM
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Re: [celayne] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

We were given plenty of notice.
As a community, we pretty much suck at getting involved in saving our own sport.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 16, 2012, 8:51 AM
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Re: [celayne] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

That sort of "user pay" fee is fairly common amongst air traffic controllers. That is similar to Nav Canada's practice (I am not sure of the dollar value).
Several European ATC organizations charge similar fees.
Keep in mind that $100 is an insignificant part of the cost of flying an airliner from Norway to Spain. At most, a commuter airplane might make four flights per day.

The difference for skydivers is that we fly in the same block of airspace three or four times per hour. The challenge is to negotiate some form of discount.

The good news is that most North American DZs fly in uncontrolled (Class G) airspace, with no requirement to talk with ATC.


godfrog

Sep 16, 2012, 9:26 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

define class G airspace


grimmie  (D 18890)

Sep 16, 2012, 9:31 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

Nearly every North American drop zone uses ATC.


celayne  (D 14528)

Sep 16, 2012, 9:37 AM
Post #6 of 42 (5434 views)
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Re: [grimmie] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nearly every North American drop zone uses ATC.

Rich you are a DZO, is it true this tax goes into place January 2013? Are jump prices going to raise significantly?


grimmie  (D 18890)

Sep 16, 2012, 9:42 AM
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Re: [celayne] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

http://skydiveuspa.wordpress.com/...-to-petition-effort/

Caroline, USPA is fighting this on a united front with other general aviation users.
I have to speak with Randy Ottinger this week and I'll ask him where this is in the overall government plan.

If we had to pay $100 per flight our jump ticket price would have to go up $15 eachCrazy


davidlayne  (D 3102)

Sep 16, 2012, 12:11 PM
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Re: [grimmie] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

 

If we had to pay $100 per flight our jump ticket price would have to go up $15 eachCrazy
For a Cessna that surely would be $25.00 per jump ticket effectively driving 182's out of the skydiving business.


(This post was edited by davidlayne on Sep 16, 2012, 1:59 PM)


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Sep 16, 2012, 12:23 PM
Post #9 of 42 (5337 views)
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Re: [celayne] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

Try not to panic about this.

The alphabet groups tend to overreact and toss a lot of hyperbole into the argument to get people whipped up into a frenzy and start letter writing campaigns. Perfectly understandable, but in almost every case of a sweeping bill like this the lobbyists win exceptions that ensure small businesses the ability to continue to operate. In my nearly 30 years of involvement in aviation, I've seen it time and time again on all sorts of issues.

I have no doubt that if user fees are enacted there will be a slight increase in costs that will simply be passed on to the jumper. $25 dollar increase per jumper for a Cessna load? No way. I, in no way, believe it will be the end of small drop zones.


(This post was edited by quade on Sep 16, 2012, 12:25 PM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Sep 16, 2012, 1:57 PM
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Re: [davidlayne] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

If we had to pay $100 per flight our jump ticket price would have to go up $15 eachCrazy

For a Cessna that surely would be $25.00 pet jump ticket effectively driving 182's out of the skydiving business.
The cited link indicates that piston aircraft used for recreational purposes are exempt.


EatSleepFly  (D 33638)

Sep 16, 2012, 2:18 PM
Post #11 of 42 (5250 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The good news is that most North American DZs fly in uncontrolled (Class G) airspace, with no requirement to talk with ATC.

Actually most operate in Class E airspace, which is controlled. With that comes a requirement to be in contact with ATC (FAR 105.13, here in the U.S.).


(This post was edited by EatSleepFly on Sep 16, 2012, 2:19 PM)


michaelmullins  (D 1643)

Sep 16, 2012, 3:56 PM
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Re: [davidlayne] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

If we had to pay $100 per flight our jump ticket price would have to go up $15 eachCrazy

For a Cessna that surely would be $25.00 per jump ticket effectively driving 182's out of the skydiving business.
It only applies to turbine powered aircraft.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Sep 16, 2012, 4:03 PM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

If we had to pay $100 per flight our jump ticket price would have to go up $15 eachCrazy

For a Cessna that surely would be $25.00 pet jump ticket effectively driving 182's out of the skydiving business.

The cited link indicates that piston aircraft used for recreational purposes are exempt.
Skydiving aircraft are not used for recreational purposes by the DZOs, are they? They are used for business, and as I emphasize in previous posts, it is business to which the current regime is most hostile -- and the magnitude of that hostility is what makes this proposal not "business as usual."

I do want to make clear, though that I generally agree with Paul because, historically, he's absolutely correct in his characterization of the proposal-lobbying-final result loop. I am just disagreeing with him in this particular case, and if you follow the links I provide in the above posts, you'll see the data that supports my case.

Paul may well prove to be correct in this case, too; given the magnitude (there's that word again!) of the opposition to this proposal, which also dwarfs objections to GA-related proposals in the past, we may indeed have a "Move along, nothing to see here" thing going on with this one too.

But given the stakes, do you really want to bet your gear on that?

44
Cool


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 16, 2012, 5:46 PM
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Re: [godfrog] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
define class G airspace
........................................................................

ICAO Air Space Classification (as I remember it)

A - altitude, as in high altitude, above 18,000 feet mandatory IFR and ATC

B- big as in big city airport, mandatory IFr and ATC

C - as in big city airport, mandatory ATC

D- smaller municipal airports,mandatory ATC

E as in empty D, usually after midnight

F - as in fire, riots and military firing ranges, only enter with permission of controlling authorities.

G - uncontrolled airspace below 3,000 feet AGL


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Sep 16, 2012, 7:25 PM
Post #15 of 42 (5035 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
define class G airspace
........................................................................

ICAO Air Space Classification (as I remember it)

A - altitude, as in high altitude, above 18,000 feet mandatory IFR and ATC

B- big as in big city airport, mandatory IFr and ATC

C - as in big city airport, mandatory ATC

D- smaller municipal airports,mandatory ATC

E as in empty D, usually after midnight

F - as in fire, riots and military firing ranges, only enter with permission of controlling authorities.

G - uncontrolled airspace below 3,000 feet AGL

Not exactly (at least not in the US).

Wiki Cliki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...lass_(United_States)

Most jumps in the US happen in class E. Normally ATC contact isn't required for VFR flight in E.
And jump operations don't recieve any sort of clearance from ATC, it is simply a notification.

But it is still contact.

And the article linked in the OP is from January 2011. It is the initial proposal. I wasn't able to find anything really recent on it with a quick search.


theplummeter  (D 34357)

Sep 16, 2012, 7:29 PM
Post #16 of 42 (5033 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
define class G airspace
........................................................................

ICAO Air Space Classification (as I remember it)

A - altitude, as in high altitude, above 18,000 feet mandatory IFR and ATC

B- big as in big city airport, mandatory IFr and ATC

C - as in big city airport, mandatory ATC

D- smaller municipal airports,mandatory ATC

E as in empty D, usually after midnight

F - as in fire, riots and military firing ranges, only enter with permission of controlling authorities.

G - uncontrolled airspace below 3,000 feet AGL


Close. in many areas Class E starts at 14500 feet, and you don't need to establish radio contact with ATC to be in Class E under Visual Flight Rules.


theplummeter  (D 34357)

Sep 16, 2012, 7:31 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y6AHvQjpO4


EatSleepFly  (D 33638)

Sep 16, 2012, 7:38 PM
Post #18 of 42 (5023 views)
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Re: [theplummeter] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Close. in many areas Class E starts at 14500 feet, and you don't need to establish radio contact with ATC to be in Class E under Visual Flight Rules.

Ah, but you do if you're flying jumpers. Ref. part 105.

And not close. Class E airspace usually starts at 700 or 1200.


(This post was edited by EatSleepFly on Sep 16, 2012, 7:39 PM)


theplummeter  (D 34357)

Sep 16, 2012, 11:17 PM
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Re: [EatSleepFly] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Close. in many areas Class E starts at 14500 feet, and you don't need to establish radio contact with ATC to be in Class E under Visual Flight Rules.

Ah, but you do if you're flying jumpers. Ref. part 105.

And not close. Class E airspace usually starts at 700 or 1200.

The class E airspace that surrounds an airport with an instrument approach usually starts at either 700 or 1200 agl, but Class E over class G usually starts at either the floor of a victor airway or more commonly 14500.

Part 105 does force the radio contact either way.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 17, 2012, 6:44 AM
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Re: [grimmie] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nearly every North American drop zone uses ATC.

Actually EVERY DZ uses them. Even in uncontrolled airspace the pilot is required to notify the nearest ATC before a jump.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Sep 17, 2012, 8:00 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Nearly every North American drop zone uses ATC.

Actually EVERY DZ uses them. Even in uncontrolled airspace the pilot is required to notify the nearest ATC before a jump.

But what's required, and what's courtesy?

We were having problems with the radio on my 182 (only one radio) a couple of weeks back. We talked with the controller on the phone a time or two trying to work it out, it was broadcasting noise. The controller asked us to turn it off, and keep flying. My DZ is a bit over 5 nm from McConnell AFB, and 13 nm from a Class C airport, we talk with Approach Control at this airport. We did have a functioning transponder with mode C, and an assigned code. So, the controllers would see us, know our altitude, and they're familiar enough with us to know what we do. I'm guessing that they were vectoring a bit more traffic around us, and it was more important for us to actually look for traffic before exiting the airplane. Logically, since we're within 20 miles of the Class C, the controller would generally be talking with most aircraft flying above 1200', so "the other guy" would generally have been notified that there may be skydivers in the air. ATC can also see the canopies on radar above some altitude, but I'm not sure exactly where they lose us. One of my pilots got a "talkin' to" for putting out a cross country jump outside our 5 mile NOTM area. Again, the controller had seen the canopies on his radar.

On topic: it doesn't really sound like piston aircraft would be included if this were to come to fruition. But then the Federal Income Tax was passed as an amendment to the Constitution on the assurance that it would not exceed 3%, and only ever apply to the top couple percent of income earners along the East Coast. That's and example of what an us-vs-them mentality will get us!!


EatSleepFly  (D 33638)

Sep 17, 2012, 8:23 AM
Post #22 of 42 (4819 views)
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Re: [theplummeter] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
but Class E over class G usually starts at either the floor of a victor airway or more commonly 14500.

Common misconception. Over most of the U.S., Class E starts at 1200 AGL which is also the floor of Victor airways. Over some airports, it starts at the surface, over others it starts at 700 AGL. The reason for this is to accommodate instrument approaches. IF it doesn't start at some other altitude then yes, it starts at 14,500 MSL. The only place you'll see it start at 14,500 MSL (or some other higher altitude) is in mountainous terrain. If you look at a sectional for Colorado for example, you'll find that where the floor of Class E airspace starts at 14,500 MSL, it is roughly 1200' above the highest terrain in the area. In the mountains, there is no need to have Class E down every valley, so it starts over the top. Confusing enough? Wink

-ESF
ATP/CFI


grimmie  (D 18890)

Sep 17, 2012, 9:15 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

Chuck, I wasn't sure if some of the remote Canadian DZ's had to call ATC.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 17, 2012, 10:01 AM
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Re: [grimmie] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Chuck, I wasn't sure if some of the remote Canadian DZ's had to call ATC.

Ah yes.


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2012, 1:33 PM
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Re: [normiss] Obama Plan Calls for $100 ATC Fee [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We were given plenty of notice.
As a community, we pretty much suck at getting involved in saving our own sport.

The user fee proposal long precedes Obama.

I don't think it's a done deal yet.


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