Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012

 

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Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Sep 10, 2012, 6:29 PM
Post #1 of 89 (8148 views)
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Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 Can't Post

I've had a few people inquire if I had any info on a Vigil activation this weekend at STF.

From asking around I was told that it activated on a tandem jump at around 5000 feet. From what I was told the unit is on its way back to the factory for inspection.

I was also told this jump had video showing the altitude of activation.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Sep 11, 2012, 5:14 AM
Post #2 of 89 (7703 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Had the Main been deployed yet???
or not???

Did the reserve open cleanly?

which brings up another question....Unimpressed What is the drag Like ??, from a Main drogue, which would still be inflated behind the TI when the main is still IN the container????

and what is the likelihood of that drogue moving UP towards the tail of the reserve... can the drogue be, "reeled in"????? and stowed away somewhere????(i'm not a TI ) Or is that too difficult to accomplish??.

Unimpressed


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Sep 11, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #3 of 89 (7513 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a drogue in tow once. In my case the bridle was entangled in the reserve line twists. Yes I was able to reel it in. I gave it to the passenger and it caused no more trouble.


Skydave103  (D 22664)

Sep 16, 2012, 7:25 AM
Post #4 of 89 (6891 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Had the Main been deployed yet???
or not???
It had not.

Did the reserve open cleanly?
Yes. The drogue was in tow and not wrapped around any lines.

which brings up another question....Unimpressed What is the drag Like ??, from a Main drogue, which would still be inflated behind the TI when the main is still IN the container????
He was able to reel in the drogue with no problems and landed with no problem.

and what is the likelihood of that drogue moving UP towards the tail of the reserve... can the drogue be, "reeled in"????? and stowed away somewhere????(i'm not a TI ) Or is that too difficult to accomplish??.

It was fortunate that the drogue didn't get wrapped up and it was a clean deployment.
It took the TI a few seconds to figure out what happened. (Im sure anyone would have that reaction) Once he pulled in the drogue he stowed it between him and the student.


I watched the handy cam video and the outside video a few times. there was nothing out of the ordinary on the jump. We will wait and see what Vigil says was the malfunction was.

I was not the TI, I do have 2000 tandem jumps. luckily I haven't had this happen! :)


(This post was edited by Skydave103 on Sep 16, 2012, 7:25 AM)


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Sep 16, 2012, 7:54 PM
Post #5 of 89 (6706 views)
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Re: [Skydave103] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

thank You very much... for your informative answers...
as they help to assure the readers of this thread,,, of just WHAT occured...
More easily understood now.

thanks Skydave103...

glad they landed safely... and glad that the AAD activation was NOT lower..... i.e. during the time of main deployment...

jmytavino


flyboy8501  (B 36584)

Sep 19, 2012, 2:15 AM
Post #6 of 89 (6329 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Was this the Vigill 1 or 2 and when was the last battery replacement?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Sep 22, 2012, 6:24 AM
Post #7 of 89 (5840 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGarg2XQydI Video of the incident.


earth2eric  (D 33784)

Sep 22, 2012, 7:34 AM
Post #8 of 89 (5802 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Man! That had to HURT! Good on the instructor for letting the student know what happened, and letting him know they are safe! And great landing on the students part! THAT'S AWESOME!
I wonder what Vigil has to say about that?
No dice!


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Sep 22, 2012, 1:05 PM
Post #9 of 89 (5691 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


Maybe it's a camera angle thing, but it looks like the vidiot is right above him at around 20 seconds on the video. If he was, it's a good thing it didn't misfire a little earlier. Scary man. I just bought a tandem rig with a vigil in it.


earth2eric  (D 33784)

Sep 22, 2012, 2:53 PM
Post #10 of 89 (5652 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

ya i saw that. definitely was above and I thought (maybe I'm wrong) that's a big no no for filming tandems?


LukeOliver  (F 600)

Sep 22, 2012, 6:38 PM
Post #11 of 89 (5552 views)
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Re: [earth2eric] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I would discourage Camera people from flying into the cone of death above a tandem pair.


humanflite  (D 99999)

Sep 23, 2012, 9:08 AM
Post #12 of 89 (5398 views)
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Re: [LukeOliver] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Ouch. That went much better than it could have.
A Vigil misfires again.... hmmm


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Sep 24, 2012, 10:06 AM
Post #13 of 89 (5163 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Phree.

It sounds like the DZO and Chuting Star have had the Vigil report on this since Thursday the 20th.

Do you think anyone is going to come back on here and give the facts?


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Sep 25, 2012, 4:04 PM
Post #14 of 89 (4934 views)
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Re: [Skydave103] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I watched the handy cam video and the outside video a few times. there was nothing out of the ordinary on the jump. We will wait and see what Vigil says was the malfunction was.

Hi Dave103.

You are obviously in the loop on this incident.

I was told by a friend that both the DZO and Chuting Star have had the official report back on this since last Thursday - Sept 20.

Can you find out what it says and report it?

We are eagerly waiting for some answers.

.


theonlyski  (D License)

Sep 25, 2012, 4:27 PM
Post #15 of 89 (4909 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd like any more info that has come to light also.

I jump a Sigma with a Vigil 2


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Sep 26, 2012, 8:00 AM
Post #16 of 89 (4701 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

As it turns out.

The Vigil was set to meters and had an offset of plus - 850 meters.

No wonder the guy's reserve came out at 5000 feet.

Here is the report and the graph.

***************************************

Findings: The internal memory shows only 1 jump graph in the last switch-on session linked to the activation. On a previous date(session) there have been 3 jumps done.

All the last 16 recorded jumps graphs are set in meters and only the last one has an altitude correction. When we change the cutter and start the unit up, it shows T+850m.

The ground reference pressure of the vigil taken for the last jump is 979 mBar and is corresponding to the local DZ pressure (Skydive the farm on 8 sept).

Setting: Tandem mode in meters and +850m altitude correction.

For information, about the graphs:

- The GREEN line is the altitude in meters or feet.
- The GREEN horizontal line is the preset activation altitude linked to the choosen mode.
- The RED line is the speed used by Vigil in km/h, mph, m/s or ft/s.
- The RED horizontal line is the preset activation speed linked to the choosen mode.
- The YELLOW line is the filtered speed, just to give the average falling speed during the freefall as info.
- The RED dot: detection of the freefall (min. 5/8 sec above activation speed).
- The YELLOW dot: detection end of the freefall (min. 5/8 sec under activation speed).
- The BLUE dot: activation of the Vigil.
- The Vigil starts to record grafically in memory 7 sec before start of freefall and stops 12 sec after end of freefall.

Graph N 1062: we see the exit at 3990 m (13087ft) followed by an unstable freefall part going to a stable part with an average vertical speed of 56m/s. The activation level is 1551m (5087ft) because of the alt corr. We see that the vigil activate correctly at 1549m (5080ft) because still in freefal. The reserve is released and the opening phase with deceleration is normal.

Conclusion: the Vigil worked correctly and the activation is due to a setting with an +850m altitude correction.

Remark: It is important to know that you specially need to go in the setup, + alt cor menu and then push 17 times to do the 850m altitude correction and once fully started-up it will be shown on the screen of the Controller T +850m as long the unit stays on.


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Sep 26, 2012, 8:04 AM)
Attachments: device16123-jump1062.jpg (145 KB)


theonlyski  (D License)

Sep 26, 2012, 8:07 AM
Post #17 of 89 (4691 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for the information.

Just curious, is there any logging of when the unit had the offset or units changed?


piisfish

Sep 26, 2012, 8:13 AM
Post #18 of 89 (4682 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As it turns out.

The Vigil was set to meters and had an offset of plus - 850 meters.

No wonder the guy's reserve came out at 5000 feet.
.
do we know WHY it was offset ??
was it the 1st jump of the day on that rig ?


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Sep 26, 2012, 8:16 AM
Post #19 of 89 (4678 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As it turns out.

The Vigil was set to meters and had an offset of plus - 850 meters.

No wonder the guy's reserve came out at 5000 feet.

-------

All the last 16 recorded jumps graphs are set in meters and only the last one has an altitude correction. When we change the cutter and start the unit up, it shows T+850m.

-------

Remark: It is important to know that you specially need to go in the setup, + alt cor menu and then push 17 times to do the 850m altitude correction and once fully started-up it will be shown on the screen of the Controller T +850m as long the unit stays on.

Thanks for posting, Sandy.

Wow. Guess that does explain why it fired.

I'm still a little puzzled. First, there was only one jump made with the offset...which suggests the offset was added that day, prior to the jump.

Seeing as how it takes going into a lower-level menu and pushing the button 17 times to get that sort of offset, how could someone manage to make that mistake? Is it still human error we're talking about? Or could the Vigil somehow have been accidentally unlocked in the course of regular movement and the button bumped enough to achieve that setting?

Still can't quite rationalize what scenario would cause a button to be accidentally pressed more than 17 times - no matter whether it was done by a human or by pressure applied to the unit during everyday moving around. Unsure

The only thing that seems plausible is that the TI for some reason intentionally wanted to offset he Vigil by 850 FEET, and didn't realize it was set to meters. But why would he be offsetting the AAD in the first place?


(This post was edited by LloydDobbler on Sep 26, 2012, 8:18 AM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Sep 26, 2012, 8:27 AM
Post #20 of 89 (4660 views)
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Re: [LloydDobbler] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The only thing that seems plausible is that the TI for some reason intentionally wanted to offset he Vigil by 850 FEET, and didn't realize it was set to meters. But why would he be offsetting the AAD in the first place?

That wouldn't make much sense, the offset from LZ and airport is ~150'.

I believe they have Micro Sigmas which would make it highly unlikely that the AAD was cycled with the top flap closed. Not impossible to push the button, but VERY difficult.


piisfish

Sep 26, 2012, 8:32 AM
Post #21 of 89 (4651 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

and 850m is 2800 ft Shocked


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Sep 26, 2012, 8:46 AM
Post #22 of 89 (4633 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thank you for the information.

Just curious, is there any logging of when the unit had the offset or units changed?

The Vigil keeps data for the last 16 jumps.

All of the last 16 jumps on this unit were set to meters.

Only the last jump had an offset of +850 M.

.


theonlyski  (D License)

Sep 26, 2012, 8:51 AM
Post #23 of 89 (4622 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Thank you for the information.

Just curious, is there any logging of when the unit had the offset or units changed?

The Vigil keeps data for the last 16 jumps.

All of the last 16 jumps on this unit were set to meters.

Only the last jump had an offset of +850 M.

.

Thanks again!

One more random question: Can you see if the offset was entered before or after the unit was cycled on before the last jump?

I obviously don't know what level of logging the systems have. Unsure


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 26, 2012, 9:56 AM
Post #24 of 89 (4561 views)
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Re: Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

It is curious that the number "850" is very close to the "840" that is used for the firing altitude in feet for the Standard (not Tandem) setting.

It could still be a bunch of button presses by someone who got into an unwanted mode on the Vigil and at some point just gave up and left the Vigil after 17 or whatever button presses.

But I'm suggesting there's a small chance that someone fiddled with it and tried to make it right because "A Cypres fires at 750 and I think a Vigil is 850 or something like that", so made sure that 850 was showing on the screen.

Just one possible scenario to lead to the unusual setup of the Vigil.

[Edited to add a couple hours later: I was informed the Farm's altitude above sea level is also around 850ft. That's another possible reason for the 850?]

The bigger question is probably, who was fiddling around with the Vigil in the first place?


(This post was edited by pchapman on Sep 26, 2012, 11:46 AM)


mark  (D 6108)

Sep 26, 2012, 10:00 AM
Post #25 of 89 (4551 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Vigil fire - Skydive The Farm - 8 September 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One more random question: Can you see if the offset was entered before or after the unit was cycled on before the last jump?

The offset can only be changed at start-up. Also, the display shows the amount of offset. If there is no offset, the display reads "TANDEM" (or "STUDENT" or "PRO"). With offset, the display shows something like "T+ 600ft." That is, the direction (plus or minus), the amount, and the unit of measurement (ft or m) is shown in the display.

The offset is kept in memory; if the unit is cycled, the offset remains.

Mark


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