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Your AAD is broken...

 

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Poll: Your AAD is broken...
I won't jump without my AAD 83 / 28%
Rip that POS outta my rig and fire up the plane 155 / 52%
I don't have an AAD 58 / 20%
296 total votes
 
airdvr  (D 10977)

Mar 27, 2011, 7:52 PM
Post #1 of 75 (3685 views)
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Your AAD is broken... Can't Post

Different approach...








hangdiver  (D License)

Mar 27, 2011, 11:54 PM
Post #5 of 75 (3451 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think being unconscious going through my pull altitude is the only reason to have one, I don't.

I don't jump as much as I used to but I have jumped with an AAD...tandems and a couple of jumps that some would call stunts.

I really don't have anything against AAD's except I've had one friend killed by an AAD (the reason for airtec's speed model)and none that I know of have ever been saved by one.

I was taught you're dead the moment you leave the aircraft if you don't pull your handles as you should.
I was also taught you're always jumping your reserve, the main is just for entertainment.

Now days a lot of people jump reserves so small that it makes them incapable of saving them without input from a conscious pilot anyway, so what's the point in having an AAD...wait I know...for idiots that forget to pull while fully conscious.

Ever heard of a 113 base canopy...?

It's pretty hard to die from high impact when bowling but I know people who've come close, yeah, they where skydivers...

Let Darwin pick up the slackers, you know, the "natural selection" guy.

jmtc, hangdiver


Morne  (B License)

Mar 28, 2011, 12:24 AM
Post #6 of 75 (3435 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was taught you're dead the moment you leave the aircraft if you don't pull your handles as you should.
I was also taught you're always jumping your reserve, the main is just for entertainment.

That is a highly negative view imho.

I am alive when I leave the plane and I plan to stay that way until im on the ground , and should I lose consciousness or be unable to pull my handle , I will rely on my aad (as a backup) .


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Mar 28, 2011, 4:34 AM
Post #7 of 75 (3386 views)
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Re: [Morne] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I was taught you're dead the moment you leave the aircraft if you don't pull your handles as you should.
I was also taught you're always jumping your reserve, the main is just for entertainment.

That is a highly negative view imho.

I am alive when I leave the plane and I plan to stay that way until im on the ground , and should I lose consciousness or be unable to pull my handle , I will rely on my aad (as a backup) .

How is that a negative view?

You jump out of an airplane, you die.

Its a simple fact.

None of us skydive because we're suicidal, but the fact still remains.

Impact at terminal speed is deadly.

What bothers me more is the fact that some people feel so uneasy to talk about this basic fact, that they feel the need to brand certain phrases with negative emotions so as to shut people off.

You don't pull, you die. Simple as that.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 28, 2011, 7:23 AM
Post #8 of 75 (3275 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's pretty hard to die from high impact when bowling

I'd think that really depends on where you are sitting


Jbag  (D License)

Mar 28, 2011, 9:51 AM
Post #9 of 75 (3203 views)
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Re: [Morne] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I was taught you're dead the moment you leave the aircraft if you don't pull your handles as you should.
I was also taught you're always jumping your reserve, the main is just for entertainment.

That is a highly negative view imho.

Suck it up princess, you need to go watch a few carnage videos and realize the danger of the sport you are in

I am alive when I leave the plane and I plan to stay that way until im on the ground , and should I lose consciousness or be unable to pull my handle , I will rely on my aad (as a backup) .


hangdiver  (D License)

Mar 28, 2011, 12:33 PM
Post #10 of 75 (3102 views)
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Re: [Morne] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I was taught you're dead the moment you leave the aircraft if you don't pull your handles as you should.
I was also taught you're always jumping your reserve, the main is just for entertainment.

That is a highly negative view imho.

I am alive when I leave the plane and I plan to stay that way until im on the ground , and should I lose consciousness or be unable to pull my handle , I will rely on my aad (as a backup) .

Are you really under the impression that if you do nothing you will live after leaving the aircraft?

Will your reserve open in 300' with you spinning and tumbling?

Look, I have investigated a fatality that occurred with the jumper conscious and spinning on his back until the AAD fired.
He was over rising terrain and the reserve somehow flipped through below the slider after burning the shit out of his jump suit arm and legs.
The reserve had 3 seconds to try to open, did I mention he has video of his own death.

I did my investigation first without ever seeing the video to not cloud my theories about what happened.

In the end I watched the video...I had a hard time trying to figure out why the reserve never fully inflated in that 3 seconds until watching the video a dozen times frame by frame.
There was exactly one frame showing the flip through.
That reserve might have never opened.

Find another sport!


hangdiver  (D License)

Mar 28, 2011, 12:40 PM
Post #11 of 75 (3091 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It's pretty hard to die from high impact when bowling

I'd think that really depends on where you are sitting

I said "pretty hard" not impossible...


missbrz  (B License)

Mar 28, 2011, 12:42 PM
Post #12 of 75 (3083 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
It's pretty hard to die from high impact when bowling

I'd think that really depends on where you are sitting

I said "pretty hard" not impossible...

I'd think a high impact from a bowling ball to your face has a good chance of killing you actually.....


hangdiver  (D License)

Mar 28, 2011, 1:06 PM
Post #13 of 75 (3066 views)
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Re: [missbrz] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'd think a high impact from a bowling ball to your face has a good chance of killing you actually.....

No not me...I don't bowl...I jump out of airplanes and off objects. So there...but I did have a friend that used to do aerial bowling out of a Cessna 150 for fence posts and trees...now that bowling ball would kill you from high impact.
Sorry...thread drift...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 28, 2011, 1:09 PM
Post #14 of 75 (3060 views)
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Re: [Arvoitus] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

>You jump out of an airplane, you die. Its a simple fact.

Well, from that perspective, you get on a highway, you're dead. Impact a fixed object at highway speeds and you will not survive. Only your quick thinking and positive actions can keep you alive until you stop the car.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 28, 2011, 1:17 PM
Post #15 of 75 (3052 views)
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Re: [billvon] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>You jump out of an airplane, you die. Its a simple fact.

Well, from that perspective, you get on a highway, you're dead. Impact a fixed object at highway speeds and you will not survive. Only your quick thinking and positive actions can keep you alive until you stop the car.

except now they have cars that will pull you back into your lane if you drift, and will stop hard to avoid rear-ending another car. Hell, I bet you could take a nap on a long road......I mean, why not? the computer on the car will take care of you.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Mar 28, 2011, 1:17 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 28, 2011, 2:27 PM
Post #16 of 75 (3017 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

>except now they have cars that will pull you back into your lane if you drift . . .

And they have AAD's that will fire if you don't pull. But saying "you're dead once you leave the airplane" is cooler and snappier.


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Mar 28, 2011, 3:05 PM
Post #17 of 75 (3000 views)
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Re: [billvon] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>You jump out of an airplane, you die. Its a simple fact.

Well, from that perspective, you get on a highway, you're dead. Impact a fixed object at highway speeds and you will not survive. Only your quick thinking and positive actions can keep you alive until you stop the car.

If you jump out of an airplane and do nothing then you will absolutely without a doubt die.

If you drive on highway and do nothing then you *might* die if you drift on to oncoming traffic or impact a fixed object. If you happen to be driving on a straight road and roll to a stop then nothing happens.

I honestly don't get it why some people are dead set against the expression 'if you don't pull, you die'. Are they afraid they come across as reckless adrenalin junkies or what the hell is going on?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 28, 2011, 3:22 PM
Post #18 of 75 (2982 views)
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Re: [Arvoitus] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

>If you jump out of an airplane and do nothing then you will absolutely without a
>doubt die.

No, your AAD will likely fire and save your life. As proof of this, we have a lot of examples of people not deploying a parachute and surviving. But you MIGHT die if your AAD fails or you land in powerlines afterwards. If you want to express that as "you will die" fine with me, but it's not quite accurate.

>If you drive on highway and do nothing then you *might* die if you drift on
>to oncoming traffic or impact a fixed object.

Which makes it sorta like skydiving.

>I honestly don't get it why some people are dead set against the
>expression 'if you don't pull, you die'.

Same reason you are so dead set against the expression "you get on a highway, you're dead" I imagine.


Trae  (Student)

Mar 28, 2011, 4:44 PM
Post #19 of 75 (2928 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

in reply to "I really don't have anything against AAD's except I've had one friend killed by an AAD (the reason for airtec's speed model)and none that I know of have ever been saved by one."
...................................

I kinda get the feeling modern AAD addicted skydivers don't realise the thing could kill them or other people on the load.

Making such a device compulsory?
Seems like Skydiving organisations around the world , that insist on compulsory AAD use , are leaving ithemselves way open for future litigation.

A mature, well informed and experienced skydiver should be able to make the decision for themselves .
.

Compulsory AAD use ? It really looks like the fearmongers are running the show.
.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 28, 2011, 4:52 PM
Post #20 of 75 (2920 views)
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Re: [billvon] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, from that perspective, you get on a highway, you're dead.

Whether one likes or dislikes the 'dead when you leave the airplane' style phrases, there is a difference:


When we leave the airplane, we don't pull right away. We do other stuff. Keep doing that, and you die.

In a car, you are actually steering and watching the road more or less most of the time.

(And trying to avoid stopping doing either for more than a few seconds at a time.)

You wouldn't make it onto the highway if you weren't already steering the car.

In a car we don't look back and get involved in a game of chess with a guy in the back seat, and then suddenly realize that over 50 seconds have passed and it's time to check whether we're drifting off towards the obstacles beside the road.

In a car, you get distracted, you can die.

In a skydive, you have to get distracted from the skydive or else you will die. (Exceptions for AAD's that actually cut loops.)

Edit: Sure, the bit about 'being dead when you leave the plane' can be overused in a macho way. I do point out to people that you can be just as dead from mundane things like driving. But the phrase is still useful when used to emphasize particular points about the nature of skydiving.



"I'd rather burn in at 200 mph than die in some senseless traffic accident." - Truman Sparks, more or less


(This post was edited by pchapman on Mar 28, 2011, 4:56 PM)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Mar 28, 2011, 5:01 PM
Post #21 of 75 (2919 views)
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Re: [billvon] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, every car I've ever driven has a terminal velocity (If you'll excuse the bastardization of the term) of 0mph, if you don't do anything and the road is straight (like, say, jumping from a plane) over 2 miles the impact is likely to be less severe due to friction slowing the car over time. Not to mention that you have seat belts, airbags and a crushable body and chassis to absorb impacts. I wouldn't rely on any of these things to save my life but combined, they all make driving a car at highway speeds much less likely to kill you than jumping from a plane.

I voted to tear the thing out and fire up the plane.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 28, 2011, 5:09 PM
Post #22 of 75 (2914 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

>they all make driving a car at highway speeds much less likely to kill
>you than jumping from a plane.

I'd suggest that with a modern student rig, you could strap someone into it, throw them out of the plane and have a 99% chance of them surviving. What are the odds of someone who has never driven before - and doesn't even know what a brake pedal does - surviving a trip at highway speeds? Probably also pretty high; heck, probably over 99%.

Now, give both of them even 5 minutes of instruction, and their odds go way up. Which is what we want.

But again, in both cases, they are dead during some part of their trips unless they do something positive to avoid it.

We like to think that skydiving is really badass, but it's not all that hard to keep yourself alive. (As evidenced by students who regularly try their best to kill themselves - and fail.)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Mar 28, 2011, 6:37 PM
Post #23 of 75 (2886 views)
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Re: [billvon] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know if I agree with that. I know you have *way* more experience than I do so I'm very open to correction here but are we talking with someone spotting them? Radio for canopy? Direction on where the landing area is? Maybe I remember my own nervous fear a little too clearly to get a good picture of what you mean here.

The fact is that we don't do either of those things. Most people who jump have some training and most people who drive also have some training. I'd suggest that the analogy is pretty flawed in other ways, such as people being brought up with the concept of steering since they were very small in terms of toys and tv, not to mention the level of investment on all levels of government and communities (to a greater or lesser extent) the very well defined laws and regulations, a real police force, etc., etc.

I don't think your point is totally invalid, just saying that the car analogy fails so often when put up against skydiving, I think this is another case.

In so far as we're pretty able to get just about anyone safely to the ground, I'd agree with that but I think that skydiving presents a much greater and real risk of injury and death than driving. I also think that driving skills and drivers generally would improve dramatically if people confronted the fact that driving is also a life and death business.


thomas.n.thomas  (A 65931)

Mar 28, 2011, 8:08 PM
Post #24 of 75 (2842 views)
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Re: [Arvoitus] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

You jump out of an airplane, you die.

Its a simple fact.

None of us skydive because we're suicidal, but the fact still remains.

Impact at terminal speed is deadly.

What bothers me more is the fact that some people feel so uneasy to talk about this basic fact, that they feel the need to brand certain phrases with negative emotions so as to shut people off.

You don't pull, you die. Simple as that.

I disagree...

On March 24, 1944, 21 year old Flight Sergeant Nicholas Stephen Alkemade was a member of No. 115 Squadron RAF and was flying to the east of Schmallenberg, Germany, when his plane was attacked by enemies, caught fire, and began to spiral out of control. Because his parachute was destroyed by the fire, Alkemade opted to jump from the aircraft without one, preferring his death to be quick, rather than being burnt to death. He fell 18,000 feet (5500 m) to the ground below. His fall was broken by pine trees and a soft snow cover on the ground. He was able to move his arms and legs and suffered only a sprained leg. When he came to his senses and saw stars overhead, he lit a cigarette.

He was subsequently captured and interviewed by the Gestapo. The orderly Germans were so impressed that Alkemade had bailed out without a parachute and lived, that they gave him a certificate testifying to the fact.

Not verified other than seeing it a few different places on the net, but it makes sense that out of all the terminal falls, at least one would have survived...

Now, if you start talking probabilities and prudent courses of action, I'm all ears. But then when you start talking probabilities and statistics, you might find yourself questioning your decisions about lots of things in life.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 28, 2011, 8:22 PM
Post #25 of 75 (2834 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] Your AAD is broken... [In reply to] Can't Post

>but are we talking with someone spotting them? Radio for canopy?
>Direction on where the landing area is?

Two cases:

1) You take an average guy who shows up to do a skydive. Don't tell him a thing, put a rig on him, take him up to 12,500 feet and kick him out of the plane. He may figure out that he has to pull a handle (will probably find the reserve in that case) or he may just wait for his AAD to fire. Then he'll land in some random direction. 99% of those people will survive. Perhaps with broken femurs, but they'll survive.

(He'll actually land more softly, under better control and in a safer area than most WWII paratroopers.)

2) You take an average guy who shows up to do a skydive. Put a rig on him and put him on the plane. On the way up, tell him what handles to pull, how to arch, how to release the brakes and steer, how to face into the wind, how to flare. Then kick him out the door. He's probably going to open his main and land somewhere close to the target. 99.9% of them will survive, and 99% will have no major injury.

>The fact is that we don't do either of those things.

Agreed! 99% is nowhere near good enough; we're going for 99.9999%.

>just saying that the car analogy fails so often when put up against skydiving

In general I agree; they're not all that similar overall. I was just comparing them as two examples of things you will do where you will die if you don't take positive steps to prevent your death.

>I also think that driving skills and drivers generally would improve
>dramatically if people confronted the fact that driving is also a life and
>death business.

True - and I'd suggest there are even skydivers that that applies to.


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