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landing

 

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hankwood

Dec 28, 2010, 6:37 PM
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landing Can't Post

just did my aff 3 (twice) first one the freefall wasn't so hot but I landed ok. Second jump got the bugs worked out of the freefall but I landed hard on my ass. Flaired to early,for some reason I'm having problems with depth perception, looking at it wrong?,, ex says its coz I'm an idiot but I'd like a more experienced opinion. I wear prescription progressive glasses. nothing serious yet but I'm too old to do that often


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 28, 2010, 6:40 PM
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Re: [hankwood] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just did my aff 3 (twice) first one the freefall wasn't so hot but I landed ok. Second jump got the bugs worked out of the freefall but I landed hard on my ass. Flaired to early,for some reason I'm having problems with depth perception, looking at it wrong?,, ex says its coz I'm an idiot but I'd like a more experienced opinion. I wear prescription progressive glasses. nothing serious yet but I'm too old to do that often

The internet is not where you learn how to land a parachute.

The people whose opinions matter at this point in your skydiving career are your instructors, please talk with them about this. Welcome to skydiving, fun isn't it?Smile


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Dec 28, 2010, 6:46 PM)


PiLFy  (A License)

Dec 28, 2010, 8:43 PM
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Re: [hankwood] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

"ex says its coz I'm an idiot but I'd like a more experienced opinion."

She doesn't really wonder why she's your "Ex." Does she? Tongue

I guess you know what PiLFy stands for now, huh?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 28, 2010, 8:58 PM
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Re: [PiLFy] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pilfy


Hellis

Dec 29, 2010, 2:03 AM
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Re: [hankwood] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you jump with or without the glasses?


danornan  (D 11308)

Dec 29, 2010, 4:51 AM
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Re: [Hellis] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Look further out and NOT at your feet.


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 29, 2010, 5:42 AM
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Re: [hankwood] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Stop looking down where your feet are going to go, and look out ahead of you. In any other sport you look towards the horizon, you'd never find yourself looking at the front wheel of your bike while riding, the tip of your surf board, or even your feet when running.

Your legs will know what to do when you get to the ground (PLF), so keep those eyes out in front, and make sure you flare the parachute all the way down to your hips.Smile


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Dec 29, 2010, 7:05 AM
Post #8 of 46 (3978 views)
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Re: [hankwood] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

A quick search of "Flare Timing" found THIS thread. Lots of info there.

Timing the flare is hard early on because you haven't developed the "sight picture" you need in order to properly judge your height above ground. And you only do it once per jump, so you don't get a whole lot of practice at it.

I don't think your progressive glasses (lineless bifocals, right?) make much difference, but you might try it with single vision lenses to see if it makes much difference (presuming you can see well enough with them to read your altimeter)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 29, 2010, 7:32 AM
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think your progressive glasses (lineless bifocals, right?) make much difference, but you might try it with single vision lenses to see if it makes much difference (presuming you can see well enough with them to read your altimeter)

I sometimes wear progressives when I jump. They don't make the slightest difference.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Dec 29, 2010, 7:55 AM
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Re: [Andy9o8] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't think your progressive glasses (lineless bifocals, right?) make much difference, but you might try it with single vision lenses to see if it makes much difference (presuming you can see well enough with them to read your altimeter)

I sometimes wear progressives when I jump. They don't make the slightest difference.

Ok, thanks.

I got my first pair recently, and I'm still getting used to them. I like them for some stuff, hate them for other stuff. I haven't jumped with them yet (I don't need to so I don't really plan to).


sundevil777  (D License)

Dec 29, 2010, 8:48 AM
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Re: [hankwood] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Second jump got the bugs worked out of the freefall but I landed hard on my ass. Flaired to early,for some reason I'm having problems with depth perception, looking at it wrong

Of course you likely did something wrong, that is to be expected.

You should not trust what I am about to tell you, you should assume I'm completely wrong, or that you shouldn't even be 'armed' with such knowledge at this early point in your training.

Flaring when you are still too high is quite common, but a good landing can be salvaged if you do the right things after you screw up.

Student canopies are usually used at a low wingloading, which makes it possible to recover from an early flare with the right technique. That technique has risks if you don't do it right.

First, a canopy will flare better if you don't pull down on the toggles as fast as possible. Part of your problem may be that you are doing that (it is common for students). A more gradual flare allows the canopy to change the angle of attack and gives a more powerful flare for a longer duration. Flaring a bit more slowly also allows you to realize that you may have started your flare too early, and allow for adjustments before you pull all the way down.

If you get half way through your flare (1/2 brakes) and realize you're too high, then just hold that brake position for a while until you get closer to the ground, and then finish the flare. Do NOT let up on the toggles. That will cause the canopy to surge forward and dive down quickly - requires a lot of altitude for the canopy to stop diving.

Flaring from a partially braked condition is actually very useful when it is necessary to land in a very tight area, and is often described as "sinking in" your canopy, or an "accuracy approach". When you "sink in" your canopy, you can correct for going long or coming up short of your intended spot by applying a bit more or less toggle input to adjust your angle of descent. The descent of a large canopy in a half to deep brake condition should be slow enough that you can PLF a landing with no flare at the end, just a steady descent rate with less than normal forward speed. A variation of this technique that is more commonly seen is when someone is going long, they might apply some brakes for a short time, but then go back to full flight with plenty of altitude to spare so that they don't hit the ground while the canopy surges forward (and it does surge dangerously forward, especially if you let the toggles up quickly). Some tandem instructors use this technique to get extra airspeed from the surge for a more effective flare, but you can also kill yourself. I am only advising you learn more about how this "sinking it in" technique is done and why it is useful - DO NOT just try it out yourself at this stage in your jumping career - it deserves serious discussion with an instructor. I think it is reasonable to do some of this stuff at high altitude (after discussion with your instructor).

If you do start your flare too early and get the toggles ALL the way down and realize you're too high, what is important is that you don't allow the canopy to stall, which is when the canopy stops making significant lift and you drop like a rock usually with a leaned back orientation (hard to land on your feet - hitting your butt hard). So, if you make the mistake of flaring fully too high, you should realize that you can land in a full flare condition as long as the canopy isn't stalled. Realizing what that 'stall' feels like takes practice (up high) and the need to hover just a bit before that stall point is the only time you should consider letting up just a bit on the toggles when landing (when you realize you're deep in toggles and the canopy has/is stalling). Managing that stall point only requires small adjustments and again should be practiced up high so you know what if really feels like to do it. You can land your canopy while hovering near the stall point with an acceptable rate of descent, and it is MUCH better than letting up on the toggles (surging), or allowing the canopy to stall. The problem is that you may screw up - so don't (yes, I know, easy to say). Many students are not able to reach stall on their large student canopies without wrapping the brake line around their hand. As you jump smaller canopies, it will definitely be possible to stall.

All of this stuff is not natural for a new jumper to have thought about, but I think it is worth discussing so that you and others can gain valuable knowledge. As long as you realize that advice you get from the internet might be simply wrong, misinterpreted or misapplied, and you take responsibility to thoroughly review it with your instructors, then you are going to be accelerating your learning curve (a good thing). Be careful out there.

I may well get flamed for passing on too much advice too early in your training, and probably deserve such flaming, for you may take this advice and hurt yourself with it - so DON'T.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Dec 29, 2010, 8:57 AM)


shah269  (A 59581)

Dec 29, 2010, 9:08 AM
Post #12 of 46 (3910 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

sundevil777,
very cool advice, that's what I got from some of the older guys regarding "feeling" the landings.
To the OP landings aren't easy and take practice and lots of time.

The best suggestion I ever got was to take a ladder out into the field, stand on top and look around. At 10ft is where you should start and on top a ladder is about the right sight picture.

The key as eveyone said to look out say 100m or so and as soon as you see the ground at the bottom of your eye then get ready and wait for that sight picture to line up and flare.

what really helps is Youtube, find some videos of people skydiving with a head mounted gopro and actually move your hands in or around the time they do. Eventually it will click.


regulator  (No License)

Dec 29, 2010, 9:40 AM
Post #13 of 46 (3897 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Sundevil that was great advice for me too. It's quite possible that I've heard it before but with the way you put it together it suddenly make much more sense now that it has ever before. I now figured out that I'm waiting until the last possible second because I'm afraid of stalling my canopy and I stab that fokker at the last second and I'm not getting the full flair and coming in HOT!! because I havent utililzed the full potential of the flair on my Sabre2. While its possible the OP didnt get what you said...I did and I'm going to apply this when I get back to the DZ I will do my best to apply that to my landings.Laugh


sundevil777  (D License)

Dec 29, 2010, 9:46 AM
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Re: [regulator] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm waiting until the last possible second because I'm afraid of stalling my canopy and I stab that fokker at the last second and I'm not getting the full flair

Quite right, if you watch others land, you'll see that most do a fairly gradual flare, and then you can see some students that stab it hard and fast, lucky that they have a big forgiving canopy.


thrillstalker  (D License)

Dec 29, 2010, 1:30 PM
Post #15 of 46 (3845 views)
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Re: [hankwood] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just did my aff 3 (twice) first one the freefall wasn't so hot but I landed ok. Second jump got the bugs worked out of the freefall but I landed hard on my ass. Flaired to early,for some reason I'm having problems with depth perception, looking at it wrong?,, ex says its coz I'm an idiot but I'd like a more experienced opinion. I wear prescription progressive glasses. nothing serious yet but I'm too old to do that often

talk with an instructor and get them to explain the pendgulem effect and how the flare changes the angle of flight.

if you really understand what the parachute is doing during a flare, you can figure the flare out

take a video camera and go film some landings. watch these videos whenever you have free time.

we only get a little bit of practice each time we make a skydive. a lot of the things you learn on the ground, so get out in the lz and watch landings, and try to talk an instructor into going with you to explain stuff.

ill leave the under canopy advice to the up-jumpers, but if there are canopies in the air you can learn from them.


PiLFy  (A License)

Dec 29, 2010, 3:41 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] landing [In reply to] Can't Post


"pilfy:
a mealy texture, as in an over ripe apple or tomato
the pilfy tomato was the only sad element of the five guys burger."

That's too funny Laugh! I'd no idea. Thanks Andy. I feel better now. Where the H*ll did you hear that?


jimjumper  (D 11137)

Dec 29, 2010, 5:14 PM
Post #17 of 46 (3794 views)
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Re: [hankwood] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

You might want to find out if you prescription glases are different lens strength for each eye. Amblyopia will cause a resultant lack of depth perception and makes flaring height more difficult to determine.


Hellis

Dec 30, 2010, 1:14 AM
Post #18 of 46 (3751 views)
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Re: [jimjumper] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Thats the problem i have.
Without my glasses i still get perfect score on a eye test, but it makes me feel taler.
When i was a student i had to jump without glasses because i couldnt get the googles to and glasses to work well.
My landings where very consistent, but never good Smile

Now i jump with sunglasses/googles with perscription lenses.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 30, 2010, 1:44 AM
Post #19 of 46 (3747 views)
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Re: [jimjumper] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You might want to find out if you prescription glases are different lens strength for each eye. Amblyopia will cause a resultant lack of depth perception and makes flaring height more difficult to determine.

Amblyopia and different prescriptions for each eye are two different things. Amblyopia (aka lazy eye) is a disorder that, among other things, can cause poor depth perception. (Calling Dr. Jen, for expertise!) On the other hand, I, for example, have fairly different prescriptions in each of my eyes; but with lenses or glasses, they're each corrected to 20/20. No depth perception problems.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 31, 2010, 5:55 AM
Post #20 of 46 (3617 views)
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Re: [hankwood] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Second jump got the bugs worked out of the freefall but I landed hard on my ass....

This is my big worry for you:

Please, please, please do almost anything other than land on your ass. I'm sure you were taught how to PLF. We teach that for a very, very good reason. It goes a long, long way towards preventing broken tailbones, crushed discs and fractured vertebrae and worst case: paralysis


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Dec 31, 2010, 5:56 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 31, 2010, 7:31 AM
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Re: [hankwood] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but I landed hard on my ass

I'm too old to do that often

I'll echo what popsjumper said, there is no excuse fro landing on your ass. Timing the flare, like many other things in skydiving takes practice. Real time, in-air practice. Doing a proper PLF, on the other hand, can be practiced effectively all day long off of a picnic table.

You have three choices when it comes to landing A) land softy on your feet, B) execute a proper PLF, or C) risk hurting yourself badly. There is no 'in between' and you should avoid option 'C' at all costs. If it is not immediately and obviously clear that you will stand up your landing, PLF, no excuses.


PiLFy  (A License)

Dec 31, 2010, 7:52 AM
Post #22 of 46 (3591 views)
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Re: [hankwood] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just did my aff 3 (twice) first one the freefall wasn't so hot but I landed ok. Second jump got the bugs worked out of the freefall but I landed hard on my ass. Flaired to early,for some reason I'm having problems with depth perception, looking at it wrong?,, ex says its coz I'm an idiot but I'd like a more experienced opinion. I wear prescription progressive glasses. nothing serious yet but I'm too old to do that often

Hank, all I can offer on landings is what Pops told you. NEVER, EVER land on your Butt (Ask me how I know...). Your legs are shock absorbers. Use them.

As for your vision. Other than presbyopia, have you mentioned any other diagnosis (i.e.: Amblyopia)? I skimmed the posts, but didn't see any. Personally, I'm very myopic, & have astigmatism in one eye. My prescriptions are different for each eye, as well. This is due to structural differences between the two. I don't think the astigmatism is too bad. It isn't corrected w/the brand of contacts I wear. It has never been a problem for me in any other endeavor. W/a "Good" batch of contacts, I have 20/10 vision. This brings me to a question for the more knowledgeable, & more respectful, here. Will mild depth perception issues make landings much harder to master? The coaching I've received so far makes me think the correct sight picture is what makes the difference. That's where I've seen the most improvement in my landings. Thoughts?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 31, 2010, 7:54 AM
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Re: [regulator] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I now figured out that I'm waiting until the last possible second because I'm afraid of stalling my canopy

You should not be afraid of your canopy in any respect. Open high on your next jump, and determine the stall point of your canopy.

Slowly pull both toggles down to full arms extension. The key in this manuver is to keep your hands even, and all movements slow and steady. When you feel the canopy being to rock back and stall, note your hand position, as this is the stall point.

Remember - slow, smooth movements entering and recovering from a stall. Do not get spooked by the stall and throw your hands all the way up, that will make it worse. Once the canopy beings to stall, you can stop it by easing your hands up tp a point just above the stall point. Once you see how nicely you can enter and depart from a stall, your fear of the stall should diminish. That's not to say you shouldn't fear stalling close the ground, that's pretty bad, but if you know the stall point, you can just avoid going there near the ground.

On the stall point - if you find you cannot stall your canopy at full arms extension, your steering lines might be too long. You want to be able to stall your canopy at fulls arms extension, but only when you're really streching to reach as far down as possible. The canopy should still fly when you're at a 'casual' full arms extension, but when you really extend yourself, it should go into the stall.

If you find that it stalls sooner than that, or not at all, speak to a rigger about adjusting your steering lines. Have them lengthed or shortened in 2" increments, and after each adjustment, locate the new stall point. Keep doing this until it's righ where you want it to be. Far enough down that you are unlikely to 'accidentally' stall the canopy at any time, but not so far down that you can't reach it when you really want to.

Once that's done, play with it until you are comfortable with the stall. Get to the point where you can tell the stall is coming before it happens. Work with it until you are no longer surprised or afraid of stalling the canopy, and it's just another flight mode you are in full control of.

Of course, you'll need to pull high for these types of manuvers, and you need to consult an instructor or senoir jumper on the load regarding your exit order and pull altitude. Be suer to check your spot, altitude and for traffic before and after each manuver, and stop all manuvers below 2500-ish ft, where you can shift your attention full time to traffic management and setting up for your landing.


shah269  (A 59581)

Dec 31, 2010, 9:05 AM
Post #24 of 46 (3568 views)
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Re: [davelepka] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a shot in the dark...could the student rigs lines have shrunk?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 31, 2010, 12:38 PM
Post #25 of 46 (3545 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Take it from a guy who has two herniated discs in his lower spine "keep your feet underneath you for landing."

Leg muscles are great at absorbing landing shock.


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