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2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles

 


Copycat  (C 42371)

Feb 2, 2008, 12:56 PM
Post #1 of 21 (1366 views)
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2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles Can't Post

I've finally finished assembling my rig 2 weeks ago, mounted the main on the risers with new slinks and away it went for a reserve repack.
I asked my rigger (first time i'm dealing with this one) to give it a quick check because I saw small holes in my canopy.
After a week he sent me an email saying that to repair the canopy would cost me around 600$! I had payed less for the canopy itself! He said there were 8 holes and 6 lines needed to be changed. I got the canopy used but the condition was above OK in my eyes and I quite trust the guy that sold me.
I said to him to nevermind, I'd jump it anyway.
The rig came with a soft reserve and a yellow cutaway handle (Jav TJN). I didn't like any so I swapped them with my old Reflex' (after double checking the lenghts were the same, the difference was 5mm at the most). He also added this to the price (whooping 200$) because he said I can't use "other rig handles" I said to him I had the originals anyway.

So, what do you think? I changed rigger because the last one took ages for a repack (but she did a good job), but I'm guessing this one is just trying to rip me off in any way he can...

Any comments / questions / ideas very welcome!
Blue skies from Italy,

-Patrik


(This post was edited by Copycat on Feb 2, 2008, 1:00 PM)


NWFlyer  (D License)

Feb 2, 2008, 1:07 PM
Post #2 of 21 (1332 views)
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Re: [Copycat] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I had payed less for the canopy itself! He said there were 8 holes and 6 lines needed to be changed. I got the canopy used but the condition was above OK in my eyes and I quite trust the guy that sold me.
I said to him to nevermind, I'd jump it anyway.

Are you a rigger? Is the guy who sold it to you a rigger? Lines may "look fine" but need to be replaced if they are out of trim.

If you don't trust the rigger who's looking at it for you, by all means get a second opinion from another rigger, but if it were me I wouldn't just go out and jump it after a recommendation like that unless I also had the skill set to make the evaluation of the condition of the rig. But if I also had the skill set to make the evaluation of the rig, I wouldn't have sent it off to someone else for a repack. So I'm guessing you don't.


MajorDad  (D 579)

Feb 2, 2008, 1:09 PM
Post #3 of 21 (1329 views)
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Re: [Copycat] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've finally finished assembling my rig 2 weeks ago, mounted the main on the risers with new slinks and away it went for a reserve repack.
I asked my rigger (first time i'm dealing with this one) to give it a quick check because I saw small holes in my canopy.
After a week he sent me an email saying that to repair the canopy would cost me around 600$! I had payed less for the canopy itself! He said there were 8 holes and 6 lines needed to be changed. I got the canopy used but the condition was above OK in my eyes and I quite trust the guy that sold me.
I said to him to nevermind, I'd jump it anyway.
The rig came with a soft reserve and a yellow cutaway handle (Jav TJN). I didn't like any so I swapped them with my old Reflex' (after double checking the lenghts were the same, the difference was 5mm at the most). He also added this to the price (whooping 200$) because he said I can't use "other rig handles" I said to him I had the originals anyway.

So, what do you think? I changed rigger because the last one took ages for a repack (but she did a good job), but I'm guessing this one is just trying to rip me off in any way he can...

Any comments / questions / ideas very welcome!
Blue skies from Italy,

-Patrik

Looking at your other posts, you sure do get scammed a lot.

Assuming this isnt a troll, you may want to talk to riggers/senior jumpers you know and trust before buying second hand gear.

If it is a troll, go on and jump the parachute.Cool


monkycndo  (D License)

Feb 2, 2008, 1:42 PM
Post #4 of 21 (1320 views)
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Re: [Copycat] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's see,

90 jumps
Wing loading at 1.3 on main and 1.5 on reserve
Questioning a rigger with that vast experience verses the friend you "trust"

I say either here's my cash to enter bounce bingo on Copycat

or

Trollin', trollin', trollin', keep the BS posts a rollin', Troll hide.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Feb 2, 2008, 2:03 PM
Post #5 of 21 (1311 views)
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Re: [Copycat] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I said to him to nevermind, I'd jump it anyway.
The rig came with a soft reserve and a yellow cutaway handle (Jav TJN). I didn't like any so I swapped them with my old Reflex' (after double checking the lenghts were the same, the difference was 5mm at the most). He also added this to the price (whooping 200$) because he said I can't use "other rig handles" I said to him I had the originals anyway.

you're a good guy to start bounce bingo on. any TSO'd parts (Such as the reserve handle) MUST be original manufacturer, And if I understand you correctly, you telling him the Reflex handles you provided with the JAvelin were originals - that's plain wrong.

Keep in mind I go by FAA rules here in the US, but the MANUFACTURER is the one that says not to change any auxilary components without their knowledge/approval.

bounce bingo anybody ?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 2, 2008, 5:58 PM
Post #6 of 21 (1252 views)
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Re: [likestojump] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I said to him to nevermind, I'd jump it anyway.
The rig came with a soft reserve and a yellow cutaway handle (Jav TJN). I didn't like any so I swapped them with my old Reflex' (after double checking the lenghts were the same, the difference was 5mm at the most). He also added this to the price (whooping 200$) because he said I can't use "other rig handles" I said to him I had the originals anyway.

you're a good guy to start bounce bingo on. any TSO'd parts (Such as the reserve handle) MUST be original manufacturer, And if I understand you correctly, you telling him the Reflex handles you provided with the JAvelin were originals - that's plain wrong.

Keep in mind I go by FAA rules here in the US, but the MANUFACTURER is the one that says not to change any auxilary components without their knowledge/approval.

bounce bingo anybody ?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am going to disagree with you.
FAA Master Riggers are allowed to swap similar TSOed components.
Since swapping ripcord handles may involve complex questions about compatibility, the job is best left to a Master Rigger.


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 2, 2008, 6:12 PM
Post #7 of 21 (1244 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
FAA Master Riggers are allowed to swap similar TSOed components.

AC 105-2C para 11 says that riggers (presumably including senior riggers) may assemble approved components from different manufacturers, "in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions." Javelin instructions require use of Sunpath-produced ripcords, so even though we might be allowed to substitute parts in general, in this specific case it is not allowed.

It isn't necessarily a question of safety, just legality.

Mark


pilotdave  (D License)

Feb 2, 2008, 6:34 PM
Post #8 of 21 (1238 views)
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Re: [mark] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

His profile says he's from Italy, so I'm not sure there's a legality problem unless they have a similar rule there. But anyway, ACs aren't legally binding documents, are they?

Dave


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 2, 2008, 7:20 PM
Post #9 of 21 (1222 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

Since Italy is within the European Union and the EU adopted JTSO/ETSO several years ago, we can assume that Italian riggers have to follow the same rules as American riggers.

Yes, Eric Fradet has hinted at the political nightmare of standardizing rigger ratings across Europe. He said something about everyone fiercely protecting their privileges.

Even if ACs were not legally binding documents, you would look like an idiot if it could be proved that you disobeyed an AC.
IOW The rigger who ignored an AC would be "on his own" in court.
At a minimum, ACs are "good practice."


(This post was edited by riggerrob on Feb 2, 2008, 7:22 PM)


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Feb 2, 2008, 8:37 PM
Post #10 of 21 (1202 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I said to him to nevermind, I'd jump it anyway.
The rig came with a soft reserve and a yellow cutaway handle (Jav TJN). I didn't like any so I swapped them with my old Reflex' (after double checking the lenghts were the same, the difference was 5mm at the most). He also added this to the price (whooping 200$) because he said I can't use "other rig handles" I said to him I had the originals anyway.

you're a good guy to start bounce bingo on. any TSO'd parts (Such as the reserve handle) MUST be original manufacturer, And if I understand you correctly, you telling him the Reflex handles you provided with the JAvelin were originals - that's plain wrong.

Keep in mind I go by FAA rules here in the US, but the MANUFACTURER is the one that says not to change any auxilary components without their knowledge/approval.

bounce bingo anybody ?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am going to disagree with you.
FAA Master Riggers are allowed to swap similar TSOed components.
Since swapping ripcord handles may involve complex questions about compatibility, the job is best left to a Master Rigger.

Rob, I wasn't clear, my last statement is exactly what you just stated. In other words I agree with what you said, you just said it better than me :)


Copycat  (C 42371)

Feb 3, 2008, 5:23 AM
Post #11 of 21 (1173 views)
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Re: [likestojump] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey, thanks for all the offenses, trolling accusations and whatnot.
I just wanted to know what the difference between handles can really be ( I DO have the original SunPath handles, I just didn't like the soft ripcord and the yellow cutaway: My reflex' ones are metal and red, accordingly)

And about the canopy, it was sold to me by a swedish master rigger, so what I see is a conflict of interests between both the riggers: the one selling me that it's in jumpable condition, the other one trying to scare me that if I don't cough up 600$ it might disintegrate on opening.

And if I "get scammed a lot" is because I'm poor and I can't afford new equipment and buy directly from manufacturers or locally (prices in Italy are 60% higher and usually old PdF components)
Apparently, "getting scammed a lot" is also just once, 2 years ago, by an american.
Since then, I've avoided buying overseas and just stuck with Europe, mainly because of customs prices.

In reply to:
Javelin instructions require use of Sunpath-produced ripcords, so even though we might be allowed to substitute parts in general, in this specific case it is not allowed.
It isn't necessarily a question of safety, just legality.
Mark

Thanks for the reply. Do you have any online information regarding that?

PS. I've attached the PDF document the rigger sent to me
PS2: I've just realized that 453 is more like $670


(This post was edited by Copycat on Feb 3, 2008, 5:45 AM)
Attachments: Prev-290108.pdf (20.2 KB)


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 3, 2008, 6:05 AM
Post #12 of 21 (1157 views)
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Re: [Copycat] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Javelin instructions require use of Sunpath-produced ripcords, so even though we might be allowed to substitute parts in general, in this specific case it is not allowed.
It isn't necessarily a question of safety, just legality.
Mark

Thanks for the reply. Do you have any online information regarding that?

Javelin packing instructions are available as pdf download at Sunpath.com.

14 CFR (= U.S. FAA regulations) 65.129(e) requires packing, maintenance, and alterations to be done according to manufacturer instructions.

Mark


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 3, 2008, 6:14 AM
Post #13 of 21 (1154 views)
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Re: [Copycat] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

 
OK, here's your easy answer. Send your PD canopy to PD for repair/service work.

They'll fix what needs fixing, and they'll do it right.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 3, 2008, 6:15 AM
Post #14 of 21 (1154 views)
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Re: [likestojump] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I said to him to nevermind, I'd jump it anyway.
The rig came with a soft reserve and a yellow cutaway handle (Jav TJN). I didn't like any so I swapped them with my old Reflex' (after double checking the lenghts were the same, the difference was 5mm at the most). He also added this to the price (whooping 200$) because he said I can't use "other rig handles" I said to him I had the originals anyway.

you're a good guy to start bounce bingo on. any TSO'd parts (Such as the reserve handle) MUST be original manufacturer, And if I understand you correctly, you telling him the Reflex handles you provided with the JAvelin were originals - that's plain wrong.

Keep in mind I go by FAA rules here in the US, but the MANUFACTURER is the one that says not to change any auxilary components without their knowledge/approval.

bounce bingo anybody ?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am going to disagree with you.
FAA Master Riggers are allowed to swap similar TSOed components.
Since swapping ripcord handles may involve complex questions about compatibility, the job is best left to a Master Rigger.

Rob, I wasn't clear, my last statement is exactly what you just stated. In other words I agree with what you said, you just said it better than me :)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

IIRC Standard Javelin (B and C yoke)ripcord is 17 inches from ball to top of pin.
D or O yoke may require a different length.
As for checking if it is a "similar TSO," the replacement ripcord should be stamped "TSO C23C" or "TSO C23D" along with something saying where and when it was made.
Even if your Javelin was made under TSO C23C, it is possible to substitute a TSO C23D (later) ripcord because they have the same strength rating.
Speaking of strength ratings, most Javelin reserve ripcords have a ball and shank/tube on the end ot ensure that they pass the 600 pound tensile test required when you install an RSL.


Copycat  (C 42371)

Feb 3, 2008, 6:43 AM
Post #15 of 21 (1142 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK, here's your easy answer. Send your PD canopy to PD for repair/service work.

They'll fix what needs fixing, and they'll do it right.

I'd do it in a heartbeat... if I was in the US

In reply to:
IIRC Standard Javelin (B and C yoke)ripcord is 17 inches from ball to top of pin.
D or O yoke may require a different length.
As for checking if it is a "similar TSO," the replacement ripcord should be stamped "TSO C23C" or "TSO C23D" along with something saying where and when it was made.
Even if your Javelin was made under TSO C23C, it is possible to substitute a TSO C23D (later) ripcord because they have the same strength rating.
Speaking of strength ratings, most Javelin reserve ripcords have a ball and shank/tube on the end ot ensure that they pass the 600 pound tensile test required when you install an RSL.

So if I use a same length ripcord, TSO'd (which it is, because it's from a Reflex) is OK? I really don't want to use the original one for safety reasons, because it's a soft handle.
I don't want to go from a security concern to another.


(This post was edited by Copycat on Feb 3, 2008, 6:45 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 3, 2008, 9:11 AM
Post #16 of 21 (1104 views)
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Re: [Copycat] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

TSO's are not general but rather specific to a rig.


In other words, while your Reflex ripcord may be a acceptable replacement from a safety standpoint, it is not acceptable from a legal standpoint.


Copycat  (C 42371)

Feb 3, 2008, 4:46 PM
Post #17 of 21 (1064 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks JP, I'd rather be an outlaw than feel unsafe every time on the way to altitude.
To add to my dislike of soft handles, it's the exact same royal blue as my suit.

I contacted my new rigger again today and asked him about the repairs, he said it was a courtesy full check and that's why he sent me the list with costs first before touching the canopy.
He said that from a short time-span point of view, the canopy is very jumpable (even 100 jumps). He underlined that that costs were to leave it in absolute mint condition.

Guess that it was just lack of good communication Unsure

Sorry to seem like a troll, my only intention is to make this sport safer in any way, and learning about all the details I don't understand seems like a good first step. Olav always teaches me the importance of safety and not taking anything lightly.

Blue skies everybody!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 3, 2008, 8:48 PM
Post #18 of 21 (1037 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

IIRC Standard Javelin (B and C yoke)ripcord is 17 inches from ball to top of pin.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry,
I meant to say 27 inches long.

It is easy to check if a replacement ripcord is compatible. Start by trying to install the handle in its pocket. Next, slide the cable into the housing and finger-clamp the pin where it will be when the rig is packed. Check how much slack remains at the handle end. One inch is the minimum amount of slack, ... better if the ball end lays in the middle of the handle or near the bottom edge of a metal D handle. If the ball hangs much below the bottom edge of the handle, it increases the risk of an accidental deployment.
Finally, the bottom end should have a ball and swage if your rig includes an RSL.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Feb 4, 2008, 11:42 AM
Post #19 of 21 (991 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Rob,

Quote:
better if the ball end lays in the middle of the handle or near the bottom edge of a metal D handle.

Excellent, I can only hope people read, understand and follow this one.

Quote:
the bottom end should have a ball and swage if your rig includes an RSL.

I think you mean ball & shank.

JerryBaumchen


Copycat  (C 42371)

Feb 4, 2008, 3:37 PM
Post #20 of 21 (965 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IIRC Standard Javelin (B and C yoke)ripcord is 17 inches from ball to top of pin.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry,
I meant to say 27 inches long.

It is easy to check if a replacement ripcord is compatible. Start by trying to install the handle in its pocket. Next, slide the cable into the housing and finger-clamp the pin where it will be when the rig is packed. Check how much slack remains at the handle end. One inch is the minimum amount of slack, ... better if the ball end lays in the middle of the handle or near the bottom edge of a metal D handle. If the ball hangs much below the bottom edge of the handle, it increases the risk of an accidental deployment.
Finally, the bottom end should have a ball and swage if your rig includes an RSL.

Check, check, and check!
Thanks so much!!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 5, 2008, 7:16 AM
Post #21 of 21 (924 views)
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Re: [Copycat] 2Qs: Canopy holes / lines and handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks JP, I'd rather be an outlaw than feel unsafe..

I'll bet that NOT being an outlaw would let you feel even safer.



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