Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007

 


astor  (Student)

Oct 23, 2007, 4:23 AM
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Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 Can't Post

(Translation from a preliminary investigation report - original available here)

Jumper (male, 34 years, 400 jumps, C license) made a 180 degrees turn into the wind too close to ground. He impacted at a high speed and suffered serious injuries, died two days later in a hospital. His parachute (XF 15, 115 feet) was fully functional during the whole descend.


DJL  (D License)

Oct 23, 2007, 3:45 PM
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Re: [astor] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

Was this a riser or a toggle turn?


feuergnom  (D License)

Oct 24, 2007, 1:49 AM
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Re: [DJL] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

does this make any difference? if you turn to low you turn to low (but of course this is obvious)


damion75  (D 102144)

Oct 24, 2007, 4:07 AM
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Re: [DJL] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Was this a riser or a toggle turn?

Just to confirm (from the link) that this is a Xbrace 21 cell at 115sqft?

At 400 jumps?

I don't think it matters what kind of turn he was making.

I would also be surprised if there is anything new to be learnt here. Unimpressed


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Oct 24, 2007, 4:54 AM
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Re: [feuergnom] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
does this make any difference? if you turn to low you turn to low (but of course this is obvious)

Yes it does.

A turn initiated with toggles initially slows down the canopy before the pendulum effect of you swinging out from under it provides speed. Given speed is lift, you have very little control authority until the canopy has sped up.

If, however, the turn was started with front risers, the canopy doesn't begin by slowing down, meaning that you've got more ability to fix your mistake earlier.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Oct 24, 2007, 6:21 AM
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Re: [bob.dino] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

To the people who turn low enough and respond slowly enough to kill themselves, I don't think it matters whether they turn with toggles or with risers. When our judgement is that off (and mine has been) - the degree of injury is largely determined by wing loading, angle of impact, the type of ground and the response time and skillset of the 1st responders and EMT's.

While I agree with every technical aspect of your post, my personal experience is that it simply doesn't matter when you screw up that bad on a canopy that loaded.

t


(This post was edited by Tonto on Oct 24, 2007, 6:27 AM)


Waldschrat

Oct 24, 2007, 2:03 PM
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Re: [astor] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

How high was his wingload and how many years did he stay in our sport?
How much experience did he have on this type of canopy?


(This post was edited by Waldschrat on Oct 24, 2007, 2:05 PM)


DJL  (D License)

Oct 24, 2007, 3:50 PM
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Re: [Tonto] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To the people who turn low enough and respond slowly enough to kill themselves, I don't think it matters whether they turn with toggles or with risers. When our judgement is that off (and mine has been) - the degree of injury is largely determined by wing loading, angle of impact, the type of ground and the response time and skillset of the 1st responders and EMT's.

While I agree with every technical aspect of your post, my personal experience is that it simply doesn't matter when you screw up that bad on a canopy that loaded.

t

Ditto. If you're too low for a toggle whip then you're too low for a riser turn. I was just trying to get a better picture of what he was doing. There are better questions for that. This like any low turn accident comes down to a lot of the same things we shake our heads at.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Oct 24, 2007, 10:57 PM
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Re: [Tonto] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
While I agree with every technical aspect of your post, my personal experience is that it simply doesn't matter when you screw up that bad on a canopy that loaded.

Fair call. You've seen a hell of a lot more than I...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Oct 25, 2007, 2:34 PM
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Re: [Tonto] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

> I don't think it matters whether they turn with toggles or with risers.

I think it absolutely matters. If you are too low and you initiate a front riser turn, as soon as you come off risers the canopy starts recovering, and adding brakes means it recovers faster. If you are too low and you initiate a toggle turn, then you are committed. The canopy will not recover until it regains speed, and toggles won't help much when the airspeed is still low.

I agree that if you turn a 2:1 canopy 180 degrees at 50 feet, not much you can do is going to help. But in my experience, the large majority of swoop incidents involve someone turning a bit too low - and in those cases, the additional "bail-ability" you get from a front riser turn can make the difference between an embarrassing landing and an ambulance ride. (IMO of course)


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
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Oct 25, 2007, 11:08 PM
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Re: [billvon] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe it's because I live 5000 ft above sea level.

Again, I acnowledge the technical aspect of your post, but when someone is so unaware that they're still trying to go faster when the ground is slowing them down, it doesn't matter.
What matters is not making the mistake.

t


Zahry  (D 698)

Oct 30, 2007, 12:17 AM
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Re: [Waldschrat] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

Lada Klein was in sport since 2001. He started skydiving a few months after me at the same dropzone. Since then we were very close friends. This june I was in Czech for holidays and he told me his instructor recomeded him to buy new parachute of him and he was many times reasured by Michal Vachuta (his instructor) the step down will be safe. I strongly dissagreed and Michal Vachuta told me I should mind my own bussines because it always worked for him like that and he told Lada to listen just to him because I'm not experienced as like him (by his opinion) and he told him I don't know what I'm takling about. Lada was confused who is right but I guess power of persuasion was stronger than common sense.


The fact is: Lada had about 205 pounds (93kg) and he used to jump HOP 150 (very similar to Electra) with wingloading 1.54 and from this eliptical but flat and docile design he went on XF15 115sqft (comparable only with xaos21 or velocity). Onto XF he went straight from his HOP 150. His instructor lied to him with the purpouse to do a sale of canopy and pushed him to this canopy agains numerous warnings form other experienced instructors (Michal Vachuta is jumping XF just as a novice and he has a big record of pushing people into dangerous downsizes). Within last two years Michal issued several complaints about his students performing badly or performing dangerous landings afer he sold them too small parachutes without gradual downsizing and without any traing. I guess Lada had under 50 jumps on this canopy before he had his accident. Sad thing is - Michal didn't even bothered to stop the jumping after the accident.

Last time I've wrote to Michal Vachuta he refused to answer my question if dowsize from 150 HOP to 115 XF is alright and safe (in june he was quite offensive when I've told him that's a bad idea). He closed whole thing by saying he did a colection for his family and kids.

If anyone would like to know more about this case I'll answer any questions. My email is tzahradka@xtra.co.nz

By my opinion the instructor was incompetent and he is partialy responsible for Ladas death.


(This post was edited by Zahry on Oct 30, 2007, 12:26 AM)


Swooopa-x  (D 847)

Oct 30, 2007, 1:24 AM
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Re: [Zahry] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

6yrs - 400 jumps.
66.6 jumps per year.
loading a 150 @ 1.54 therefore he was loading the 115 @ 2.0

If this was under the recommendation of an instructor then I am horrified! Thats practically criminal. I hope there is some investigation and i would certainly make this as public as possible.

Having said that : after 6 years in the sport i am sorry that your friend did not know better. We are responsible for ourselves out there.
good luck and condolences.


Zahry  (D 698)

Oct 30, 2007, 2:47 AM
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Re: [Swooopa-x] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the disadvantage of hanging around one dz and one instructor only. He saw people doing the same thing before him and he hasn't seen anything else. Anyone who knows him can confirm he was not the typical "hot shot". Until the downsize he was doing all right - he was flying his HOP 150 well enough to get himself down safely even in bad conditions and he had a built up reflexes for the canopy. The trouble was he strongly believed in his instructor and when the instructor told him he is fine for the XF he trusted him and he was confident because of that. When he crashed he was in safe altitude for that turn on his old canopy and he wasn't doing anything different than he would do any other day. The MAJOR difference was he had NO clue how much those canopies dives and what is dangerous because on his dropzone no one is flying those canopies on higher level than novice. And quite frankly - unless Michal Vachuta will change his attitude that's not the last death what we heard about. I'll try to translate the email conversation with him after the accident and I'll try to post it here (it might take a week or two)


Waldschrat

Oct 30, 2007, 6:29 PM
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Re: [Zahry] Fatality - Czechia, Strunkovice - 30 september 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

Mad Poor guy....thank you for your explanations zahry.



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