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Bad tandem lurk

 

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RossDagley  (C 950932)

Aug 1, 2007, 7:03 PM
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Bad tandem lurk Can't Post

Background:

My friend (the cam flyer) and I had been flying/lurking with tandems all morning. TM and cam flyer both very experienced and current jumpers (TM 4000+ jumps, videot 1300+, mostly tandem video + TM jumps). I'm the lowest experience jumper, not especially current (average 10 jumps a month). I've a lot of tunnel time FWIW.

3rd jump of the day the TM says the pax is a wuffo, but her b/f is a jumper, circa 150 jumps, wants to lurk with HIS friend, circa 200 jumps, neither have lurked a tandem before. TM briefs fully and in depth (effectively turn and track for everything - cant get there, go low, go high, close to wave off, etc). TM then says it's gonna be effectively a 3 way, as he doubts these two will even get close in freefall. Exit order is discussed. I'm 2nd from last, with videot last (remember his filming priority is me, not the tandem!).

The problem:
First part of jump goes according to plan - I briefly go head down to reach the tandem and as I pull out, I see one guy already tracking off - smart move as he's a good distance off (circa 400ft). The other guy (the b/f of the pax) is maybe 200ft off, and just "floating" there, not doing much. I presume (wrongly) that he'll turn and burn, as he's little chance of making it to us realistically. I was wrong.

Outcome:
Luck. The TM eyeballed the guy incoming just before impact, and managed to avoid injury. I never saw him coming (and neither did the videot). I was simply lucky I moved when I did (for no particular reason).

On the ground we didn't kick the shit out of the guy for doing this, but he seemed to know how much he'd fucked up. He packed and left the DZ for the day after the TM tore him a new asshole. Apparently he was so focused on getting to his g/f in freefall he went unstable.

I've learned a great deal from this - it's easy to get complacent and presume everyone can fly well once they get a few hundred jumps (especially since I mostly jump with very good flyers), and I really need to pay more attention in freefall. I remember now "keep your head on a swivel" was said for a reason.

I've edited the video a little bit as I don't want anyone specific (or the location) being blamed. I've learned a lot here - maybe someone else will too.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/...ion=file&id=6052


edit to remove unnecessary swear word, and add clarification.


(This post was edited by RossDagley on Aug 1, 2007, 9:03 PM)


illusioneer  (A 13037)

Aug 1, 2007, 7:19 PM
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy Shoot Batman!Shocked People make mistakes...We walk away from them if we are lucky.

Know thy self and thy skill level!


(This post was edited by illusioneer on Aug 1, 2007, 7:20 PM)


pilotdave  (D License)

Aug 1, 2007, 7:20 PM
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The problem:
First part of jump goes according to plan

Exactly.

The problem was the plan. That jump went all wrong before you guys got in the plane.

Tandems aren't for your amusement... stop freeflying with them. There's a reason UPT requires 500 RW jumps before jumping with a tandem...

Dave


BlueSBDeath  (D 10160)

Aug 1, 2007, 7:26 PM
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Its all the TMs fault!!!! IMHO

He is responsible for the life of the customer!!!!! If he lets you or ANYONE on the jump with him, it is his call, and his responsibility!!!

THINK!!!!!!

Stay Safe,

Arvel


Floats18  (C 35650)

Aug 1, 2007, 7:29 PM
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Not Cool

I just watched it again.....

There are so many things wrong with that video.

Fly above tandems lately?

http://www.dropzone.com/...%20Crossman;#1716661


(This post was edited by Floats18 on Aug 1, 2007, 7:39 PM)


RossDagley  (C 950932)

Aug 1, 2007, 7:45 PM
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Re: [pilotdave] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Tandems aren't for your amusement... stop freeflying with them. There's a reason UPT requires 500 RW jumps before jumping with a tandem...

Whilst I would generally agree, blanket rules don't always cover every person. There a a whole bunch of people out there with low jumps and exceptional freefall ability (I'm not saying I'm one of them, mearly making an observation). That blanket statement wouldn't cover them.

On this specific jump, belly-flying was done by all once on level with the TM. Unless I've missed something, there was nothing unsafe in my approach or ability. I'm (genuinely) interested if you believe something other than lack of situational awareness was a major issue.

The bigger problem for me to deal with was that we probably should have elected not to jump with jumpers of unknown ability in such a "high pressure" situation (high pressure for the b/f of the pax).


(This post was edited by RossDagley on Aug 1, 2007, 7:46 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 1, 2007, 7:52 PM
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice new drouge on that STRONG rig .PirateMadUnsure


(This post was edited by stratostar on Aug 1, 2007, 7:55 PM)


illusioneer  (A 13037)

Aug 1, 2007, 8:01 PM
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Ross the experience level rules are not for when things go right...They're for when exerything goes to sh*t in a hand basket


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Aug 1, 2007, 8:13 PM
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Towards the end of the video the video flyer flips to their back and from that angle it appears that someone is still high on the tandem as they are pulling. It might be the optics or someone might have floated high on the deployment. If its just the optics thats one thing, but if that person really did get above the tandem as they were nearing pull time (even way in front) then its a really bad place to be.

As some constructive conversation moving forward, the Tandem Instructor ultimately has to take responcibility for the skydive. He would the be the one that would lose his ratings and would suffer the lawsuit and the pain of being the one to injure the student. The people coming on the skydive should have been checked out by the instructor before the eventful jump so that he knew their exact skill level and could have made the decision to have the plan be more like "You exit right before us, turn and wave as you jump and we'll be in the door looking out at you". That way they can still see their friends just at exit but they are not interfering with the tandem if they are at a questionable skill level.

As for the flyers, they need to remember the start - coast - stop from their student days. They were carrying way too much energy into the skydive. I'd talk with them about the type of exit that needs to be done from a float position so that they could maintain eye contact on the jumpers exiting after them for the whole skydive. I would say that at some point there was a loss of eye contact and they put energy into their motion to try to "catch up" to the tandem. They need to be able to identify just when they are closing on someone and when to apply counter forces so that they stop at a distance then work to close it over the next few seconds.

On a dive like this you really can run into issues since it is easy to lose people vertically also and end up tracking right over a depolying canopy since someone's "track" is more of a dive and they dive down but not away a few thousand feet earlier then you do.

Lots of additional lessons can be learned from this if people would take the time not to attack the people in the video but to discuss other items that can be learned and then develop knowledge from that.


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Aug 1, 2007, 8:17 PM)


RossDagley  (C 950932)

Aug 1, 2007, 8:45 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Towards the end of the video the video flyer flips to their back and from that angle it appears that someone is still high on the tandem as they are pulling. It might be the optics or someone might have floated high on the deployment. If its just the optics thats one thing, but if that person really did get above the tandem as they were nearing pull time (even way in front) then its a really bad place to be.

Initially I think we (my friend and I) thought it was that someone had floated high on the tandem at pull time, but since looking at it over and pver again, I'm leaning towards it just being the optics and the angle of view. I'm pretty sure most people are aware of the implications of being above the tandem at pull time. (I'm actually trawling through the original Crossman and Yasuda incident thread oddly enough in a seperate bit of reading).

In reply to:
As some constructive conversation moving forward, <snip>
Thank you for your genuine desire to discuss the learning aspect of this Smile

In reply to:
As for the flyers, they need to remember the start - coast - stop from their student days. They were carrying way too much energy into the skydive. I'd talk with them about the type of exit that needs to be done from a float position so that they could maintain eye contact on the jumpers exiting after them for the whole skydive. I would say that at some point there was a loss of eye contact and they put energy into their motion to try to "catch up" to the tandem. They need to be able to identify just when they are closing on someone and when to apply counter forces so that they stop at a distance then work to close it over the next few seconds.
Certainly one of the mistakes that was made in that I had not jumped with the other jumpers before (other than my friend, obviously, and the TI, with whom I've probably 15 or so previous, uneventful lurks) and (as far as I am aware) nor had the TI. I believe theres an expression to the effect of "many links in a chain to an incident". This unknown was a link I guess.

In reply to:
Lots of additional lessons can be learned from this if people would take the time not to attack the people in the video but to discuss other items that can be learned and then develop knowledge from that.
Thank you. Genuinely. I posted to learn. I appreciated that there would be some negative feedback regarding the jump(ers) but the original intention was to learn about the situation, and attempt to avoid what still is in my mind a situation awareness issue. I had simply disregarded the other jumpers as "not being able to make it to lurk". Is the only "cure" for this as simple as more experience?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 1, 2007, 8:51 PM
Post #11 of 57 (5337 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

To add to this, I'd suggest that the flyers be more relative-work competent. Rather than diving into the "formation" it's better to come down away from, and fly towards the center. In this vid, it looks like he just flies straight into it.
Another comment is that tunnel time doesn't translate directly into skydive time. I don't have a lot of tunnel time, but enough to know that while I have a good backfly and sit in the tunnel, and can do RW with others, I can't in the tunnel. There is a kid at our DZ that freeflies like a mutha in the tunnel, and is good in the air, but can't do RW on his belly to save his life (bad enough a couple of us won't fly with him).
The person that is almost directly above the tandem is equally concerning, if not moreso. I don't think it's a lens refraction of someone on the fringe; it seems pretty clear it's a person. From 1:27:26 to 1:28:11, you can clearly see a person in a track towards the drogue. At 1:31:25, you can see that particular person heading away towards the left, but then 1:31:27 another person enters the frame, much lower in altitude. You can still see the first person in the lower left of the frame. At 1:33:02, both skydivers can still be seen in the frame in the distance.
Ultimately, can't help but wonder why anyone thought it was a good idea to have six people in close proximity during a tandem, particularly given the very low jump numbers of all but two of the participants.
I'd go home with my tail between my legs if I'd been part of this too, but hopefully the DZO gave the same tongue lashing to the TM?


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 1, 2007, 9:35 PM
Post #12 of 57 (5296 views)
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Whilst I would generally agree, blanket rules don't always cover every person.

Yes they fucking do, when the saftey and protection of a wuffo is concerned and the trust is placed in the Tandem Instructor to keep the student safe from all the things that they are not aware of.

Stop mucking about before another student dies and we end up in a world of shit.

Quote:
SIGMA TANDEM SYSTEM OWNERS MANUAL
Page2: Section 5: Student Techniques Chapter 3 - Other Activities 11301- 00.00.0000
These guidelines are not optional. They must be followed, or the Tandem Instructor and Tandem rig owner will be in violation of the User Agreement under which Tandem jumping is operated and will consequently no longer be allowed to legally perform Tandem Jumps.
PARTICIPANTS QUALIFICATIONS
For any relative worker to accompany a Tandem pair, the following criteria must be met:
1) Relative worker must have a minimum of 500 relative work skydives; or
2) Relative worker must be either a current Tandem Instructor or a current AFF jumpmaster.
3) Relative worker must have made at least 100 relative work jumps in the last year.
4) Cameramen must meet all the above guidelines, and in addition, must have at least 100 camera jumps.
RW TANDEM BRIEFING
If the Tandem Instructor does decide to take a relative worker on a jump, a briefing must take place before the jump
between Tandem Instructor and relative worker which covers these points:
1) No one should ever pass directly over or under the Tandem pair in freefall or droguefall. On exit, the Tandem
Instructor needs room to deploy the drogue, and at any time after that, the drogue could suddenly become a
deploying main canopy.
2) Once under the drogue, the Tandem pair has very little ability to change drogue fall velocity or to move horizontally
(track). This means they cant get out of the way of someone who is closing too fast or someone sliding under them.
Therefore, NEVER let anyone who is not a skilled relative worker accompany a Tandem pair on a dive (see fatality
report section).
If the grips are taken, take them on the student, not the Tandem Instructor.
3) Because the Tandem pair cannot track very effectively, they must obtain opening separation by opening higher
than everyone else. Accompanying relative workers must not attempt to open their main canopies with the Tandem
pair. A minimum of 1000' vertical separation is required - to avoid collision situations.
BRIEFING REVIEW
To review: when you dirt dive Tandem drogue relative work, tell the participants four things.
1) Give me room to deploy the drogue in the first five seconds after exit.
2) NEVER pass directly over or under us.
2B) Grip the student, NOT the Tandem Instructor.
3) Approach slowly and dock gently.
4) Wave-off signal given at 6000ft
5) Let me pull first at 4,000' or above, and give us at least 1000' vertical separation.


illusioneer  (A 13037)

Aug 1, 2007, 9:46 PM
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Re: [DSE] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Uhhhh...I musta missed the exception on the experience level requirement If someone is a great rw flier...I'll try reading it againTongue


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 1, 2007, 10:53 PM
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Re: [illusioneer] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Uhhhh...I musta missed the exception on the experience level requirement If someone is a great rw flier...I'll try reading it againTongue

WTF are you talking about?
Please, please read it again and explain in plain english that even a fool like me can understand.
Does 1000 jumps make a great flier? Does 600 tunnel hours make someone a great flier? Does reading every post on DZ.com make someone a great flier, therefore filling some requirement? Or exception from requirements?
Being able to do relative work well is more or less a very strong byproduct of being a camera operator. Usually. Not always. But how does that relate to this thread?


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Aug 1, 2007, 11:16 PM
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Ross I don't think you should be jumping with tandems; you don't have enough experience. Since you are anyway I think jumping with a video guy to analyze you is probably good. I will not say I have never let anyone with your experience jump with me because I have, on very exceptional circumstances. I don't think the TM should have let his student's boyfriend jump with them; he doesn't have the experience and the TM didn't have any confidence in his abilities. However I have made similar poor calls in my career.
This is where the TM and myself cease to be fellow travelers. To allow a junior on the jump "against my better judgment" is one thing, to allow two of them is just reckless. To allow three of them on the same jump is beyond stupid. You should have been kicked off this jump as soon as any lurker (adequately experienced or not) was introduced. To allow the boyfriend's inexperienced buddy was just dumb. To allow both of you- inexcusable.


Rover  (D License)

Aug 2, 2007, 1:05 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

What is the minimum number of jumps required to get a Strong rating? I know in the 90s in the US it was 500 - which IMHO was way to low. But if this is still the case it is ironic that 500 jumps is required before one can do rw with a tandem, yet one can get a rating. Maybe my information is old. Like me.
That being said, the TI must take responsibility for those that jump with them. Sometimes the situation clouds common sense as appears to be the case here. I'd like to say that we've all done it - bad calls - but if I did some rightous prick would leap out of the woodwork and correct me so I won't.
Ross you've led with your chin because you're prepared to get hit on the chin. It's a good debate. We can all learn.


(This post was edited by Rover on Aug 2, 2007, 1:07 AM)


tdog  (D 28800)

Aug 2, 2007, 1:53 AM
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Assuming you did not post this and edit this video to brag about how bad you screwed up, I guess I applaud you for sharing a negative experience.

I admit I have a few videos in the file that show a few close calls. If you are a serious friend asking for personal experiences, I will gladly share the dirty laundry. The point - yes I have screwed up a few times real bad myself.

But what makes my videos/jumps "acceptable", even though in two of them, injury was imminent, is that each person was qualified and operating within the industry established acceptable parameters. For an example, a two way tracking dive with two people with 200 jumps each, both extremely current. No one will say, "200 jumps is too little to do a two way track." But we almost hit at highway speeds, which could have broken a neck or worse.


But your video... Almost every part of it shows industry accepted guidelines being ignored. Guys with 200 jumps, never lurked a tandem, flying like shit, is a recipe for disaster.

It is so obvious that I can't believe you would burn the tandem instructor by showing a video of his poor judgement. The problem is - if someone was hurt, any experienced skydiver who would be called to testify in court, would admit freely that there are world wide accepted standards for tandems, and every one of them was broken.

I am confident that you could train (and test) someone that flies well to lurk a tandem with less than 500 jumps, and pull it off safely... But you added so many poor choices that I just had to read the first few words to know that this would be a scary video. The warning signs to me:

1) You had multiple unknowns (skydivers not prequalified, not preevaluated). Only add one unknown at a time to a skydive, especially one that is as dangerous as a tandem. It could be a new container, a new canopy, a new wingsuit, or a new friend. You can manage one unknown, you can't manage more than one.

2) You had a boyfriend/girlfriend, which always adds pressure to perform. Never have family, especially sexual friends, involved in anything where one is doing it for the first time. If you want proof, I have a dead friend who went big for a girlfriend.

3) No one was qualified to lurk a tandem without the 500 minimum jumps or instructor rating or previous training. Sure there are ways to break the rules safely, but if you are going to break the rules you better have a pretty good justification to prove you can, such as adding one unknown at a time and proving that unknown can become a known, and the known is comfortable.

4) You say you learned a lot in evaluating others, but you never accepted responsibility for YOUR actions, since you were PART of the problem. Do you see that maybe you should have opted to do some other jump? "Hey, you know this dive just got out of my comfort zone. I don't know these guys. I will see ya on the ground."

AND MOST IMPORTANT

5) You say the tandem master tore the guy a new asshole... Who is going to tear the tandem master a new asshole and ask him to go home for the day.


If you read my previous posts, you will see I rarely get so opinionated at other's actions (yes, I have strong opinions about procedures, policy, and regulations, but not about people).

But, now that I have said my part, I congratulate you for posting the incident because others can learn.


(This post was edited by tdog on Aug 2, 2007, 1:58 AM)


BIGUN  (D License)

Aug 2, 2007, 5:30 AM
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
He packed and left the DZ for the day after the TM tore him a new asshole.

And, who chewed the Tandem Instructor's ass for allowing this goat fuck to start in the first place?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 2, 2007, 5:49 AM
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...Whilst I would generally agree, blanket rules don't always cover every person. ...

And therein lies the problem. Everybody thinks the rules don't apply to them.

Your post and video explicitly shows the reason for the rules.

ALL of you fucked up. The TM most of all for allowing it.
MadMad

But thank you for posting the video...maybe somebody will learn from it.

Diablopilot, Bigun...you were too nice.


RossDagley  (C 950932)

Aug 2, 2007, 6:06 AM
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Re: [tdog] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Assuming you did not post this and edit this video to brag about how bad you screwed up, I guess I applaud you for sharing a negative experience.

Thank you tdog for a collected and cool opinion. The only intent was to better understand what person x could have done differently (person x being any one of us flyers in that group).

In reply to:
4) You say you learned a lot in evaluating others, but you never accepted responsibility for YOUR actions, since you were PART of the problem. Do you see that maybe you should have opted to do some other jump? "Hey, you know this dive just got out of my comfort zone. I don't know these guys. I will see ya on the ground."

Yes. This is the thing I can see now, that I simply ignored at the start. Instead of saying "hey man, lets skip this one" to my friend when the TI told us the b/f was going to lurk, we chose to come along anyway, whilst not knowing anything about the guys we were jumping with. This was a bad decision, and one that in hindsight is easy to spot.

In reply to:
5) You say the tandem master tore the guy a new asshole... Who is going to tear the tandem master a new asshole and ask him to go home for the day.

As I understand it, this incident was discussed after I left for the day (DZO, TI etc). The TI did go home after this jump, but I'd be speculating as to whether that was related to this jump or not.

I'd rather learn something than not, obviously. I have learnt several things already from this discussion, safety wise, and for that I'm grateful. Most of these have come via PM from people with a genuine intrest in passing on knowledge however.

On a side note, I've also learned that the place for discussion of this type of video isn't on DZ.com, but in private with the people concerned. It would appear .commers are far more interested in belittling the jumpers than giving constructive advice and guidance. I came knowing I was in the wrong, but looking for advice from those with more experience - I went away knowing I was wrong, and save for a selected few posts with genuine constructive guidance (such as yours) the bulk of the text has not been like this. Unimpressed

Perhaps we should encourage future posters that rather than try and ask for guidance from some of the most experienced jumpers in the world, and from such a wide, useful cross-section of jumpers, they should in fact bury the video in the archives, and their head in the sand. Unsure


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Aug 2, 2007, 6:34 AM
Post #21 of 57 (5058 views)
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

wow.....
there's a thin line between
'creative videography'
and
'chaotic videography'WinkCoolSmile

any reason the cameraman left LAST????Unsure
shouldn't the video and TM have LED this circus off the plane,,,,

Not sure of others... but if I'm videoing and we've agreed as a team to allow a lurker or two. I ALWAYS ask them to exit after, and I ALWAYS keep them in front of me and in view,,, ( Until THEY do something against the 'script' like fly around behind me, or Under me,,, ) and THEN you can be sure i "KNOW' that they are really lurkers NOW....Shocked... I've been on tandems with as many as 10 capable people safely docking, and yet i've been on many many a tandem, with a "friend' of the passenger,,, just ONE other person in the air,, and they have alll been waaaaay more interesting.. than the big ways...

But as to your fine adventure.....
lots of chasing, even by the camera guy...
never one decent shot of the student.... who IS supposed to be the subject....
halfway decent dock by who ever closed the 2 way with the passenger, but Then Bombs Away...
Not only does the 'flyer'Crazy nearly cream everyone,,, but then stops and looks back for more.... ( I guesss That is just the point of this post).....

i won't say a damn thing about all the clouds, you're playing in... not my call...
Clouds are not just an issue regarding your clear view of the ground, but also can cross up many a jumpers' depth perception whenever people are diving at a target.....whenever you are literally IN a cloud....not to mention canopy flight in clouds, with others...
imho ...Any one who is chasing , should be belly flying,,, UNLESS they have Extreme freefly abilities and range.. First timers or low times chasing a tandem, need to match speed..... a sit approach or a head down approach just doesn't mesh with the speed of TM and camera person... especially if the passenger is a lightweight...Unimpressed

Your first sentance set the tone...
"My friend and i had been lurking with tandems all morning....."
like it's routine,
well routine can become complacent
AND
be careful of complacancy...

and as for b/f and girlfriends HAVING to skydive together,,,, maybe,,,, maybe NOT but taking along all the extra 'cast members', is bad stuff. Let the G/f make a few dozen jumps,, or more... THEN she can skydive with the b/f.......
It's often fun and games, but it isn't Always fun and games..

skydive safely
jmy
A 3914 D 12122


ChrisL  (C 35323)

Aug 2, 2007, 6:52 AM
Post #22 of 57 (5035 views)
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On a side note, I've also learned that the place for discussion of this type of video isn't on DZ.com, but in private with the people concerned. It would appear .commers are far more interested in belittling the jumpers than giving constructive advice and guidance. I came knowing I was in the wrong, but looking for advice from those with more experience - I went away knowing I was wrong, and save for a selected few posts with genuine constructive guidance (such as yours) the bulk of the text has not been like this. Unimpressed

Perhaps we should encourage future posters that rather than try and ask for guidance from some of the most experienced jumpers in the world, and from such a wide, useful cross-section of jumpers, they should in fact bury the video in the archives, and their head in the sand. Unsure

I think it would be a reasonable expectation that you would get some serious responses and some noise. This IS a public forum after all.

Take the serious responses and learn from them.
Ignore the noise.

Complaining about the noise only makes you appear:

a. unrealistic

and

b. to be focusing on the wrong responses.

You got some very good replies here from some very experienced skydivers. Seems to me thats what you were looking for, yes?


(This post was edited by ChrisL on Aug 2, 2007, 6:53 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 2, 2007, 6:55 AM
Post #23 of 57 (5031 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
2B) Grip the student, NOT the Tandem Instructor.

I leave that up to the Tandem Master. And ask him every time.

options:
1 - grip the tandem master (some are worried that the passenger might grope at the lurker if they grip the passenger) - in this case, the tandem master also designates which hand to approach. Ask him.

2 - grip the passenger (TM wants his hands free). TM decides which side to approach

3 - present arm and let the TM take a grip if he wants (TM in complete control of grips). TM decides which side to approach

I know people from each set of preferences. And those that don't care at all.

I don't assume. The TM will always make the decision. (If he's an asshole because you asked because you don't know HIS personal preference, ("why would you ask that, NEVER/ALWAYS touch me") then it's just better to not chase him)

Also, if there's a cameraman on the dive, I'll always ask them where they want me for the vid, do they want a delay before the approach to guarantee some video without lurkers, etc. (If the TM and the vidiot disagree on anything, the TM choice trumps).

I leave early and will set up away and behind the TM and do layout backloops once the vidiot positions up for the deployment shot. It looks good and you can set up well away from the TM.

It all means that you have to be able to fly.

Back to the OP's post. NEVER go headdown (or sit) to approach a TM or a RW formation (I'm sure you just meant you "dove" down to level, HD is a different thing altogether)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 2, 2007, 6:58 AM)


pilotdave  (D License)

Aug 2, 2007, 7:32 AM
Post #24 of 57 (4984 views)
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Re: [ChrisL] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Take the serious responses and learn from them.
Ignore the noise.

But that leaves it up to the reader to decide what is a serious response and what is noise. People LOVE to ignore the serious advice that they don't like or agree with and to learn from the advice that they already know. Don't call it noise just because it's not presented in a nice and fluffy manner.

"Stop jumping with tandems." Is that noise or serious advice?

My opinion is to read everything and discount nothing. Ignoring most of the posts on here just makes this site useless.

I appreciate that he posted the video. Experience tells me that he's going to ask me to remove it within a few days... happens all the time. But we don't need to see the video to learn from it. What went wrong here wasn't one guy almost taking out a tandem. That was just one event that took place on a skydive that had gone all wrong before it left the ground. That's just my opinion. You can discount that opinion as noise if you want, but then what do you learn? I think this person learned the wrong lesson, if he plans to continue to freefly with tandems for shits n' giggles.

Dave


Mixoligist  (D 26787)

Aug 2, 2007, 7:52 AM
Post #25 of 57 (4969 views)
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Re: [RossDagley] Bad tandem lurk [In reply to] Can't Post

What kind of cereal box did that instructor get his rating in???
He may have the skill to have a rating but not the judgment.MadMadMad
Almost died twice in the same dive...Crazy


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