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Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam

 

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Rover  (D License)

Jul 26, 2007, 4:19 PM
Post #1 of 41 (8160 views)
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Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam Can't Post

The skydive was going well until the drogue release was pulled. The TM was wearing a handcam and as the canopy opened he brought his hand in front to video both the punters face and the canopy opening. He got more than he bargained for as the reserve pud snagged on his jumpsuit which deployed his reserve. Fortunately the reserve opened behind the main, which was cut away as the canopies transitioned into a downplane. A standard reserve ride ensued.
An investigation was carried out with some interesting conclusions. The reserve pud was 'directly' connected to the reserve cable meaning that as soon as force is applied it is transferred directly to the reserve pin. Our other set of gear has about 2 inches of cable before the swage meaning that there is a certain tolerance before the force is transferred.
We contacted the manufacturer and the reaction was that this is a handcam specific problem and that their position is that handcam shouldn't be used. As a TM I disagree. While the handcam contributed to the scenerio, I believe that I should have full and free movement of my arms to deal with any situations.
We've modified both the shape of the pud, rounding it off, as well as our arm postion on opening.
But I must say I was disappointed with the manufacturers response. A hazard has been identified. Deal with it rather than burying your head in the sand.


(This post was edited by Rover on Jul 26, 2007, 5:14 PM)
Attachments: Tonys little adventure 002.jpg (89.5 KB)
  Tonys little adventure 005.jpg (86.5 KB)
  Tonys little adventure 006.jpg (87.7 KB)
  Tonys little adventure 010.jpg (104 KB)


JohnRich  (D License)

Jul 26, 2007, 4:45 PM
Post #2 of 41 (8031 views)
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Re: [Rover] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad you are both okay.

In reply to:
he brought his hand in front to video both the punters face and the canopy opening.

What's a "punter"?

In reply to:
there position is that handcam shouldn't be used. As a TM I disagree. While the handcam contributed to the scenerio, I believe that I should have full and free movement of my arms to deal with any situations.

That statement seems contradictory to me. If you have a big hunk of camera on your hand, then you don't have full and free movement of your hands. They also seem to present a snag hazard...


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Jul 26, 2007, 4:47 PM)


Rover  (D License)

Jul 26, 2007, 5:28 PM
Post #3 of 41 (7964 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, a punter is a 'downunder' term for passenger.

With regard to your other query I agree that the handcam can create issues but my point is that this isn't a handcam specific problem. It contributed, but all TMs should be aware that there may be a gear issue with tandem reserve handles facing out and potentially snagging - particuarly during the opening sequence.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 26, 2007, 5:52 PM
Post #4 of 41 (7939 views)
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Re: [Rover] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you let us know the type of gear?

I cannot see how the hand cam contibutes, can you enlighten us a bit more? What kind of reserve handle, and how exactly did it snag on the jumpsuit?


speedy

Jul 26, 2007, 11:52 PM
Post #5 of 41 (7721 views)
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Re: [Rover] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Fortunately the reserve opened behind the main,
On the last picture it looks like the main is behind the reserve.
Quote:
as the reserve pud snagged on his jumpsuit
What snagged the reserve handle, the handcam or the jump suit? I find it hard to believe a bit of baggy cloth can snag a handle. That does not mean it's impossible but if it was the handcam, that is another matter entirely.


talon2

Jul 27, 2007, 1:25 AM
Post #6 of 41 (7696 views)
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Re: [Rover] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

A " Punter " is a down under term for someone who gambles / bets on the horses or dogs....."Tandem student " more accurately reflects the Tandem masters who introduce novices to our sport.


Rover  (D License)

Jul 27, 2007, 2:42 AM
Post #7 of 41 (7667 views)
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Re: [talon2] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for your pedantic and quite accurate discription of the word punter. Semantics are a wonderful thing and it is a priviledge to be corrected. Thanks for your contribution. A Master is to a mistress as an Instructor is to a student.


(This post was edited by Rover on Jul 27, 2007, 3:05 AM)


Rover  (D License)

Jul 27, 2007, 2:52 AM
Post #8 of 41 (7665 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Diablo, I guess the hand cam contributed in the fact that the arm was brought in front to capture the tandem students (punters - the betting type) face at the time of opening. This meant that as the harness 'distorted' - for want of a better word - the corner of the pud caught the jumpsuit. If a 'standard' arch was being maintained, the upper arm/jumpsuit wouldn't be near the pud.
My point is that it's not a handcam specific problem, but a potentially a problem that has wider ramifications.


Rover  (D License)

Jul 27, 2007, 2:56 AM
Post #9 of 41 (7663 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry re gear. I don't want to get into that specificly right now. However I'm intending to let the manufacturer of this gear know about this thread.


Rover  (D License)

Jul 27, 2007, 3:02 AM
Post #10 of 41 (7658 views)
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Re: [speedy] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Speedy,
The final photo is the 3 rings letting go just as it was transitioning into a downplane. The reserve definately opened behind the main.


(This post was edited by Rover on Jul 27, 2007, 3:03 AM)


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Jul 27, 2007, 3:58 AM
Post #11 of 41 (7640 views)
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Re: [Rover] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

That's fu(ken shockin, mate! ... You didn't get the punter's face in shot once! Tongue

In reply to:
Sorry re gear. I don't want to get into that specificly right now. However I'm intending to let the manufacturer of this gear know about this thread.

Looks like a Sigma, the student harness at least, with the snaps on attachment risers Angelic


ast4711

Jul 27, 2007, 4:23 AM
Post #12 of 41 (7623 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Looks like a Sigma, the student harness at least, with the snaps on attachment risers

I`ve seen this snaps on different rigs, and I know they are on a strong i regulary jump with too. So I would not be that shure....

alex


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Jul 27, 2007, 5:48 AM
Post #13 of 41 (7575 views)
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Re: [ast4711] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Looks like a Sigma, the student harness at least, with the snaps on attachment risers

I`ve seen this snaps on different rigs, and I know they are on a strong i regulary jump with too. So I would not be that shure....

alex

I don't now, i've never jumped Strong tandems. Could be. Don't Strongs generally have the integral 3 ring and student attachment ring hardware?


ast4711

Jul 27, 2007, 5:58 AM
Post #14 of 41 (7569 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

now that you say, you are right about the integral 3 ring - at least this is what I know about strong too...

But anyway. I find it hard to speculate on gear type by the provided pics only...

alex


jumpwally  (D License)

Jul 27, 2007, 9:34 PM
Post #15 of 41 (7297 views)
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Re: [Rover] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean is a hand cam needed ? sounds goofy to me, one more thing on the list looking to take you out....hell, put one on each hand and along with one on your dick...Crazy i don't get it,,when is enough enough ?


AFFI  (D 25538)

Jul 27, 2007, 10:00 PM
Post #16 of 41 (7290 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I mean is a hand cam needed ? sounds goofy to me, one more thing on the list looking to take you out....hell, put one on each hand and along with one on your dick...Crazy i don't get it,,when is enough enough ?

I think they sell the footage to tandem students in lieu of having an outside camera flyer no?


Rover  (D License)

Jul 28, 2007, 1:04 AM
Post #17 of 41 (7264 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I mean is a hand cam needed ? sounds goofy to me, one more thing on the list looking to take you out....hell, put one on each hand and along with one on your dick...Crazy i don't get it,,when is enough enough ?

Thanks for your inciteful and thought provoking comment? This will go along way to promoting safety in our sport.

With an attitude like yours I'm surprised that you've lasted the number of years and jumps your profile claims. This forum is to promote safety and training and I'm happy to take fair criticism but PA removed by slotperfect you should go and play somewhere else.

Thankfully not on a dropzone near me.


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Jul 28, 2007, 5:25 AM)


Rover  (D License)

Jul 28, 2007, 1:11 AM
Post #18 of 41 (7261 views)
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Re: [AFFI] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Cheers AFFI,
I work on a small cessna dropzone where there are 2 TIs and I'm the camera jumper. We often use handcams to provide punters with what we believe is high quality video footage. Others may disagree but that is their problem as far as I'm concerned.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Jul 28, 2007, 5:27 AM
Post #19 of 41 (7236 views)
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Re: [Rover] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

PAs are not permitted in the forums.

Be prepared for others to post opinions that are vehemently opposite of yours, and to keep your emotions in check. Think before you post . . .

[/warning]


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Jul 28, 2007, 7:19 AM
Post #20 of 41 (7216 views)
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Re: [Rover] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you expand on this a bit? I'm still having problems seeing just how jumpsuit fabric is going to snag on a pud with enough force to pull a reserve pin.

In point of fact, it seems MUCH more likely that the cam snagged the pud. If this isn't the case, then your rigger may want to take some VERY hard looks at how they are maintaining the tandem rigs.


Rover  (D License)

Jul 28, 2007, 1:12 PM
Post #21 of 41 (7149 views)
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Re: [mnealtx] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

The handcam footage shows that the camera was at arms length when the the reserve was activated, which means that the instructors hand was also at arms length. If you look at tandem gear you'll see that both the cutaway handle and the reserve handle face 'outward' from the main liftweb so that they are accessable to the TI while carrying a passenger. Video footage clearly showed that the pud was secure on exit and during freefall and yet the reserve deployed just fractionally after the main. The TI initial thoght was that it was an AAD malfunction - deployed at 5000 ft - but the AAD was fine and the loop not cut. The reserve pud was found to be dislodged and hanging about 2 to 3 inches from where it should have been.
Tandem harnesses can go through a lot of distortion during opening, with the handles being in a 'higher' position after opening, moving from the chest area up to the shoulder area.
As regard to the maintainence in question, the gear in question had been in use for less than 3 months and had no more than 200 jumps on it. It was in excellent condition.
Therefore the only logical conclusion is the the pud was dislodged by catching on the jumpsuit in the upper arm area. This was because the left arm was being held out to capture the footage from which the photos were taken from.
As I mentioned, the reserve cable has no 'tolerance' and as soon as pressure is applied to the pud it is applied to the pin, which is about 1 inch long.
My intention is not to implicate a specific manufacturer and I realise that people will have opposing views to the use of handcam. But I stand by my belief that a TI should have full and free movement of their arms at all times to deal with situations as they arise.


Rover  (D License)

Jul 28, 2007, 1:17 PM
Post #22 of 41 (7147 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I mean is a hand cam needed ? sounds goofy to me, one more thing on the list looking to take you out....hell, put one on each hand and along with one on your dick...Crazy i don't get it,,when is enough enough ?

Oops, sorry. Seemed that I got a little carried away. Will post photos from dickcam shortly.


speedy

Jul 28, 2007, 1:36 PM
Post #23 of 41 (7139 views)
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Re: [Rover] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand what you are saying, if the reserve cable does not have any slack in it then it needs to be fixed.

I am not a rigger, but I am sure a rigger can tell us how much slack there needs to be on a reserve cable. I have about 2 -3 inches on my sport rig.

However, you must realize that most people here are not going to believe that fabric on a jump suit released the reserve. They are going to go for the handcam that snagged the reserve handle.


Rover  (D License)

Jul 28, 2007, 1:48 PM
Post #24 of 41 (7137 views)
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Re: [speedy] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems thats the impression I'm getting also. However I can assure you thats not the case. As I explained the footage shows clearly this didn't happen. I agree about the 'tolerance' required and my sport rig is the same as yours. In the past I believe there was a similar problem when atriculated sports rigs were introduced with hip and chest rings, and the xtra movement was able to trigger a reserve opening - but don't quote me on this.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jul 29, 2007, 9:25 PM
Post #25 of 41 (6981 views)
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Re: [Rover] Tandem with main / reserve out / handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...the footage shows clearly this didn't happen.

You could upload the relevant footage to http://www.skydivingmovies.com and the doubters could see for themselves.


(This post was edited by bob.dino on Jul 29, 2007, 9:25 PM)


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