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pull out vs boc pro's and cons

 

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bradandskydoc  (B 27185)

Apr 30, 2005, 5:25 AM
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pull out vs boc pro's and cons Can't Post

My new rig has a pull out. Never used one. seems a little strange. I know those who swear by them but my rigger doesn't like em. " why do you thind 90% of us use boc's? good point. Makes me a little nervous about changing deployment type.


JohnGraham  (B 104505)

Apr 30, 2005, 5:51 AM
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Re: [bradandskydoc] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
pull out vs boc pro's and cons

I assume you mean pull-out vs throw away - both can be located BOC.

Do a search using the handy search functions right here on DZ.com, you will find more information/debates than you could possibly want to read, including comments from Bill Booth, who invented both systems.
Hope you enjoy your new rig!


freeflygirlz  (D License)

Apr 30, 2005, 1:17 PM
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Re: [bradandskydoc] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi!
i just want to add: make sure you get proper training on packing and using a pull-out. I have pull out and would never change back to through out, but is needs some knowledge not to pack a hard pull malfunction and other safety things.
If you do not feel OK with pull out, you should consider changing back to BOC through out. It is not a lot of work (just sewing a BOC onto your rig and changing the handdeploy. If the number of jumps and time in sport in your profile is up to date, think about it. Its not expensive and if you want later on, you can easily change to pull out by just changing the handdeploy!
I do not recommend pull out to rather inexperienced jumper.
blue skies!


rmsmith

Apr 30, 2005, 4:33 PM
Post #4 of 32 (6417 views)
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Re: [bradandskydoc] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

You can have a BOC pocket sewn to your rig, and buy a new d-bag with pilot chute and hacky; then you'll have a choice.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Apr 30, 2005, 6:04 PM
Post #5 of 32 (6400 views)
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Re: [bradandskydoc] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

132 jumps in 3 years is not a whole lot experience to be trying a pullout p/c. They're really not recommended for lower experience levels because they have their own sets of problems if they're not packed or pulled correctly. Statistics (ahem...) have actually shown a higher rate of deployment malfunctions on pullouts than with throwaways. Though most people switch to pullouts in order to avoid problems like pilot chutes in tow or horseshoes.

To make this short and to the point, you'd probably be safer, at your experience level, with a throwaway. Just keep up with proper maintenance and give it a proper throw and you'll be fine. If you MUST go to a pullout, get some thorough training and ground practice before jumping it.

The fact that both systems have been around for 30 years and over 90% of all rigs are built & sold with throwaway should tell you something....


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 30, 2005, 9:12 PM
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Re: [tbrown] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The fact that both systems have been around for 30 years and over 90% of all rigs are built & sold with throwaway should tell you something....

You mean like the fact you're buying into rumors?


Martini  (D 23756)

Apr 30, 2005, 10:55 PM
Post #7 of 32 (6362 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

JP, do you know the real numbers of throwouts vs. pullouts in use ? My understanding is that throwouts far outnumber pullouts but don't know how true that is both US and worldwide. On a sidenote I thought that the term "throwaway" was a British one but maybe not. It kind of makes me think you don't need a kill line because the PC is disposable.


bradandskydoc  (B 27185)

May 1, 2005, 4:39 AM
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Re: [Martini] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

My rigger opened the rig and explained the packing and stowing of the briddle to prevent a hard pull and had me practice the pull on the ground.

This custom designed new rig was bought by a low timer with the intention of learning to freefly. He was advised that the pullout was safer for vertical flight. His life situation is taking him out of the sport for a while so he's sellin gthe rig. the rig has less than 50 jumps on it. I would like to learn some freefly skills as well. My rig is an older model Javelin and isn't really safe for freeflying

So what's the deal? Is a throw-out really a problem for freeflying? If not I would have no problem turning it in to be refitted with a boc throwout


(This post was edited by bradandskydoc on May 1, 2005, 4:46 AM)


Zoter

May 1, 2005, 5:57 AM
Post #9 of 32 (6337 views)
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Re: [bradandskydoc] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Its not a problem.....but I think It can / does need 'more' careful inspection.
I have had one incident with a premature deployment whilst freeflying which I ( and others much more experienced) agreed was down to having a BOC /Hackey/Throwout.......there are many more variables involved....packing of pilot chute/rig design...etc......but all are quite sure this would not have happened if jumping a 'pullout' design.

Look at it for yourself....think about how you fly/want to fly and think about how the air will flow over you and your rig.

Most people jump BOC throwaway's ......and they are obviously safe.....but do more...get someone experienced to check it out......look out for potential problems..( spandex tightness/bridal routing etc) and get any problems fixed early.

I personally still jump with a BOC throwaway.....but am alot more cautious checking/packing that particular part of my equipment.
I also buck the trend somewhat and pack my PC quite tight in the BOC pocket......I recognise this IS NOT recommended by those with a ton more experience.....but its the way that works /reassures me and works fine ....for me !

Those are my personal opinions.....my advice is to talk it over with a Rigger/Experienced jumper who knows you and can actually see/feel your rig


(This post was edited by Zoter on May 1, 2005, 6:02 AM)


Premier airdvr  (D 10977)

May 1, 2005, 6:40 AM
Post #10 of 32 (6321 views)
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Re: [Zoter] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

The basic difference is whether you feel comfortable that you'll be able to find and grab the pullout handle. I made most of my jumps with a pullout system because I liked the positive aspect of opening my own container. I also had 2 reserve rides because I lost the handle (pretty sure the modern design makes that pretty hard to do). My new rig is a throwout because it's just more comfortable and a much more staged deployment method. Either one works good and comes with their own set of problems.


GravityGirl  (D 18897)

May 1, 2005, 9:37 AM
Post #11 of 32 (6290 views)
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Re: [bradandskydoc] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Any time you change your deployment system, you need to receive instruction on packing and pull proceedure.

Make sure you find someone with experience on a pull out system.


tso-d_chris

May 1, 2005, 10:25 AM
Post #12 of 32 (6281 views)
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Re: [bradandskydoc] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

A tight closing loop and a well stowed pilot chute (You should not be able to see any pilot chute material when the PC is in the pouch) reduces the probability of a premature deployment on a BOC throwout, especially on newer systems that protect all of the bridle from the relative wind.
There are also low profile pullout style handles available for throwout systems that appear to provide less surface area to create drag.
If you do not pack for yourself, a pullout is probably not for you. They are not the predominant system out there, and not all packers you might run into will know how to pack them, though many will.
For the most part, pullouts eliminate potential throwout problems that can be otherwise mitigated while still utilizing a throwout system. Throwouts tend to have a reputation for being more user friendly than pullouts.


ojibwe  (A 36892)

May 2, 2005, 7:14 AM
Post #13 of 32 (6193 views)
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Re: [tso-d_chris] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Ilike this pull out better for alot of reasons, like the quicker deployment, definately get an instructor to describe the new technique, after considering all the opinions on the posts, pullout is better for me now.


billbooth  (D 3546)

May 2, 2005, 11:16 AM
Post #14 of 32 (6156 views)
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Re: [ojibwe] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

All theory aside...on average, people who jump pull-outs, have 4 or 5 times more total malfunctions than people who jump BOC hand deploys. This is not to say that for any particular, very careful packing individual, a pull out is more dangerous. Many people can go hundreds of jumps with no problems. However, I don't see any advantage that a pull out system gives, that is worth the added risk of total malfunctions.


Premier skydiverek  (C License)

May 2, 2005, 3:44 PM
Post #15 of 32 (6117 views)
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Re: [billbooth] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
However, I don't see any advantage that a pull out system gives, that is worth the added risk of total malfunctions.

By "risk of total mal", do you mean the risk of reserve mal, or the risk of searching for the handle till the ground? (the latter has always seemed to be more of training issue to me. If you have a floating pud, you deploy a reserve. Thats it! "Floating pud" issue seems to be more a training or psychologically related danger, rather that design danger).

The pull-out is tempting me since it eliminates (ok, greatly reduces) PC-IN-TOW and HORSESHOE malfunctions. These are the two mals that a jumper may not be able to cutaway from before pulling the reserve (PC-in-tow: obvious. Horseshoe - Billy Weber's "Breakaway" horseshoe sequence, both in commercial break and in the movie).

Of course, I am not saying here that I am smarter then Bill Booth, I am just deciding which deployment method to choose for my brand new Vector 3-M Angelic Smile. Mr. Booth - which one should I circle on the order form and why, based on my doubts in THIS post Smile?


(This post was edited by skydiverek on May 2, 2005, 3:45 PM)


murrays  (C 1285)

May 2, 2005, 3:55 PM
Post #16 of 32 (6108 views)
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Re: [billbooth] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All theory aside...on average, people who jump pull-outs, have 4 or 5 times more total malfunctions than people who jump BOC hand deploys. This is not to say that for any particular, very careful packing individual, a pull out is more dangerous. Many people can go hundreds of jumps with no problems. However, I don't see any advantage that a pull out system gives, that is worth the added risk of total malfunctions.

I would far prefer a total than a pilot chute in tow. A reserve deployment into clean air is preferable to one that might result in a main-reserve entanglement. That's the reason I switched to pull-out in 1982.

(I switched to BOC throw-out 2 years ago for wingsuit jumping. I still hate throwing my pilot chute and waiting for the main container to open. I far prefer knowing that my container is open when I release my pilot chute.)

A search on here on "pilot chute in tow" will still bring up a ton of hits. I consider this to be a very dangerous situation...more dangerous than a closed main container with nothing out. Bill, you're the inventor of the throw-out (among many other things for which we all owe you our eternal gratitude) and its' best-known proponent. Why do so many people still get pilot chutes in tow? Why, even with the routing issues of Belly bands and rol pretty much eliminated by BOC, do people still get them?


billbooth  (D 3546)

May 2, 2005, 7:41 PM
Post #17 of 32 (6078 views)
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Re: [murrays] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Pilot chute in tow malfunctions with a BOC hand deploy are very rare indeed nowadays...perhaps less than 1% of all malfunctions on hand deploy rigs. Totals from "floating dildos" and improper packing on pull-outs (according to a lot of non-scientific data I've gathered over the years) seem to represent about 5% of all malfunctions on pull-out rigs.

Floating dildos ARE a very dangerous malfunction, because you know you can find that dammed handle any second now.....if you just keep trying.....SPLAT! Quite a few very experienced jumpers have met their maker while performing this dance.

Both systems work. BOC's just work better (about 5 times better) for most people.


murrays  (C 1285)

May 2, 2005, 9:23 PM
Post #18 of 32 (6062 views)
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Re: [billbooth] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

A search on "pilot chute in tow" on dz.com returns 32 pages of hits. That doesn't seem rare to me.

What are the causes of pilot chutes in tow these days?

What percentage of malfunctions on hand deploy are hard pulls on the pilot chute? I think you should add them together. They are both totals in that the main container doesn't open.

As far as searching for your handle to impact goes.....the only person I've seen struggle with a handle to impact was trying to extract her pilot chute from her belly band mounted pouch.....if you struggle to extract a pilot chute or search for a floater until impact...well, we all know it's bad form to not pull all your handles. Before a person jumps any kind of system they should have a plan for what to do if they can't pull/find their handle..i.e. - 2 tries and I pull my reserve.

These days, with most people jumping with a Cypres, the risk of searching to impact is pretty low...just like struggling with a hard pull to impact is pretty low.

Bill, if you design out and eliminate the pilot chute in tow...and I know you have done your best .... I'll say everybody should jump a throwout. Until that day arrives, I will still prefer the pull-out....for experienced jumpers who understand and appreciate the differences and have taken the time to educate themselves on how both systems work.


D22369  (D 22369)

May 3, 2005, 1:21 AM
Post #19 of 32 (6043 views)
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Re: [billbooth] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

 I don't see any advantage that a pull out system gives, that is worth the added risk of total malfunctions
Quote:


I started skydiving at around jump 15 with a pullout - I had one floating pud in 400 skydives, luckily for me my instructor had described to me how the pin location never changed more than an inch or two, and how to open handed reach back and find the bridle at the grommet- if I would have wasted time in finding the pud handle itself I would have had to use the reserve.

I have since switched to a throwout simply because I can have a ramp check and know the pilot chute is cocked........ yes I know that there are recessed pins available on certain bridals to eliminate the possiblility of packing an uncocked pilot chute, but when I switched to a throwout there were none available and I am now comfortable with a throwout.

its six of one and a half dozen of another. Personally I will jump either system.

proper training/packing/equipment that is in good working order are the keys to pulling the fuck out of "oh fuck"

Roy


Zoter

May 3, 2005, 1:29 AM
Post #20 of 32 (6041 views)
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Re: [D22369] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
and how to open handed reach back and find the bridle at the grommet-

Whats the risks of the PC /Bridal getting tangled around your arm in this scenario??....its sounds like its possible/likely to happen.......and then thats going to have a serious implication for initiating for EP's...
Is it not better to go straight to EP's?
Just asking....


(This post was edited by Zoter on May 3, 2005, 1:31 AM)


D22369  (D 22369)

May 3, 2005, 1:36 AM
Post #21 of 32 (6036 views)
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Re: [Zoter] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Whats the risks of the PC /Bridal getting tangled around your arm in this scenario??
Quote:

I wont ever say its "impossible", but the bridal on my pullout was around 14" long, I seriously doubt that it could coil around my arm to the point that I couldnt remove it.......

but that is a scenario that I hadnt ever thought of.....good call.
<doubtful, but if it happened......whooaa boy.....nasty>


edit to add >> I doubt that it was even 14" long, actually I think it was a lot less than that......*my memory seems to be failing me more and more as I slide into old age.....Tongue if someone can give us an accurate measurment of a pullout "pud to pin" measurment it would be appreciated.
Roy


(This post was edited by D22369 on May 3, 2005, 1:43 AM)


Premier airdvr  (D 10977)

May 3, 2005, 5:28 AM
Post #22 of 32 (5998 views)
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Re: [D22369] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Both times I'd lost the pud I used the "try for it twice" rule and went for silver. Finding the bridle isn't as easy in the air as it is on the ground, and these were the days when dumping at 2 grand was the norm...so time was of the essence.

For me the change was based on the fact that it's just more comfortable and alot easier to grab the hackey than it was to grab the pud. The old design only allowed for getting 2 or 3 fingers around it, and you really had to make sure you had a good grip on it.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 3, 2005, 5:56 PM
Post #23 of 32 (5935 views)
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Re: [murrays] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
A search on "pilot chute in tow" on dz.com returns 32 pages of hits. That doesn't seem rare to me.

With 32 pages of hits, how many were people talking about the same incident? Without reading a little more that could be about fewer than 5 incidents.

A properly packed and maintained P/C and bridle with a curved pin does eliminate the chance of a PC in tow. They happen because jumpers keep inventing new ways to make them happen.

As far as waiting for your container to open, how much faster do you think your canopy deploys because of a Pull out system? You PC still has to reach the end of the bridle before the bag comes out of the container. The time it takes to put a landable canopy over your head is just about a tie if the pull out does not lay in the burble too long.

Why do you use a Throw out on your wing suit?

Both are good system, but I feel one keeps everything simpler.

Sparky

And I won't even go near the comment on being saved by the cypres.


murrays  (C 1285)

May 3, 2005, 10:07 PM
Post #24 of 32 (5910 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A search on "pilot chute in tow" on dz.com returns 32 pages of hits. That doesn't seem rare to me.

With 32 pages of hits, how many were people talking about the same incident? Without reading a little more that could be about fewer than 5 incidents.
It could be...or it could be more. I don't have the time to read all 32 pages.

In reply to:
A properly packed and maintained P/C and bridle with a curved pin does eliminate the chance of a PC in tow. They happen because jumpers keep inventing new ways to make them happen.

Well, I prefer to jump a system that eliminates the possibility of a PC in tow. I'd rather have a total with nothing out than bridle and p/c behind me and the chance of an entanglement.

In reply to:

As far as waiting for your container to open, how much faster do you think your canopy deploys because of a Pull out system? You PC still has to reach the end of the bridle before the bag comes out of the container. The time it takes to put a landable canopy over your head is just about a tie if the pull out does not lay in the burble too long.

The pull-out deployment is noticeably faster...it's not a lot, but it is quicker. What I don't like is perhaps more accurately described as I prefer knowing that my main container is open when I release my pc on a pull-out versus having to wait that little bit longer to see if the pin will get pulled.

In reply to:
Why do you use a Throw out on your wing suit?

Bird-man recommendation. When I bought my wingsuit only 2 other guys on the dz had jumped one when they were down south. There was no one here to get any advice from. When the suit manufacturer strongly recommends a throw-out, I'm not going to try my pull-out and find out why it wasn't recommended. After reading Diablopilot's posts on jumping a wingsuit with a pull-out I might go back at some point in time.

In reply to:
Both are good system, but I feel one keeps everything simpler.

They are good systems. I prefer the pull-out.

In reply to:
Sparky

And I won't even go near the comment on being saved by the cypres.

Ah come on Sparky...it's true these days. People are afraid to jump without an AAD. The number of bounces from no-pull/low-pull is way down partly due to AADs on experienced people's rigs. I never had one as a student, got one in 2000 after 20 years of jumping. I've always known that it was up to me to save myself. I've changed my emergency procedures because of having it on my rig. The AAD introduces the 2-out possibility at low altitudes. If I ever get into a low/heavy ground rush situation I'm going straight to my reserve. I rehearse that on the airplane ride before every skydive.

On the topic of wasting time trying to find a floater....that mindset can occur in virtually all malfunction scenarios:

She tried to extract her main pilot chute to impact...
He stayed with a malfunctioned main too long, cutaway too low and impacted on reserve linestretch...
He searched for his floating handle until impact....

In all cases, the focus on trying to fix the problem with Plan A, loss of attention to altitude and either never getting to Plan B or getting there too late has killed a lot of people.

My list of friends and acquaintances that have died jumping is 12 names long. You've been around a long time, I'm sure your list is lengthier than you'd like as well. Write them down and think about what happened. I think about these people often with sadness and fondness and determination to learn from them.

1 - No Pull. Unable to extract main pilot chute from bellyband. No reserve pull.
2 - No Pull. Investigation revealed that her reserve totalled and she was likely pulling the handle at impact.
3 - Main reserve entanglement resulting from pilot chute in tow caused by a misrouted bridle on a ROL throw-out. A pin check would likely have prevented this fatality. What a shame.
4 - Drowning. Exited over clouds near a large body of water. This incident could have resulted in 3 fatalities, it was by the grace of God that 2 other people survived. In the days before GPS.
5 - Main/camera helmet entanglement and reserve entanglement. My friend was videoing a 40-way from beneath while on his back. The breakoff was low, he pulled his main low, a poor throw resulted in an entanglement with his camera helmet, and then a reserve entanglement.
6 - No pull. Likely hypoxic as this happened on a high alttude jump and the other person she was jumping with opened at about 500'.
7 - Stunt jump for a movie from a helicopter at a fairly low altitude went bad. Impacted on reserve deployment.
8 - Low turn.
9 - Jumper induced line twists close to the ground and spiralled in before they could be kicked out of. Too low to cutaway..
10 - BASE jump.
11 & 12 - Cameraman died trying to save a tandemmaster with a main reserve entanglement.


2 weren't "normal" skydives. better preparation and planning would likely have made a difference in both of them.
2 low turn fatalities were completely avoidable
2 were directly attributable to throw-out problems...one could have survived if she had pulled her reserve, the other did pull his reserve
3 had entanglements.
3 would likely have been saved by a Cypres...they hadn't been invented yet.
1 should have quit trying to be a hero and saved himself....actually, a Cypres would likely have saved him as well. So, 4 would likely have been saved by a Cypres.

Three entanglements....that's why I don't ever want to be in the situation that can result in one and why my deployment system of choice is still a pull-out. Not for everybody, but I think it is ofttimes unfairly maligned.

Cheers Sparky,


MakeItHappen

May 3, 2005, 11:15 PM
Post #25 of 32 (5897 views)
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Re: [billbooth] pull out vs boc pro's and cons [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All theory aside...on average, people who jump pull-outs, have 4 or 5 times more total malfunctions than people who jump BOC hand deploys. This is not to say that for any particular, very careful packing individual, a pull out is more dangerous. Many people can go hundreds of jumps with no problems. However, I don't see any advantage that a pull out system gives, that is worth the added risk of total malfunctions.


In reply to:
Pilot chute in tow malfunctions with a BOC hand deploy are very rare indeed nowadays...perhaps less than 1% of all malfunctions on hand deploy rigs. Totals from "floating dildos" and improper packing on pull-outs (according to a lot of non-scientific data I've gathered over the years) seem to represent about 5% of all malfunctions on pull-out rigs.

Floating dildos ARE a very dangerous malfunction, because you know you can find that dammed handle any second now.....if you just keep trying.....SPLAT! Quite a few very experienced jumpers have met their maker while performing this dance.

Both systems work. BOC's just work better (about 5 times better) for most people.

I'm gonna call BS on your posts.
[yes - I know who Bill Booth is and actually know him. He knows me, my name and what I look like.]

Quote:
on average, people who jump pull-outs, have 4 or 5 times more total malfunctions than people who jump BOC hand deploys.

uh-huh???? You and I both know that pilot chute in tows are sometimes called 'totals'. Sometimes they are not called 'totals'. How can you purportedly cite data that just does not exist?

Quote:
I don't see any advantage that a pull out system gives, that is worth the added risk of total malfunctions.

The BIG advantage of a total on a pull out is that there is no pilot chute wanting to entangle with a deploying reserve.

Quote:
Floating dildos ARE a very dangerous malfunction, because you know you can find that dammed handle any second now

Big time BS on this one, Bill. If someone goes in or pulls the reserve too late because of a floater then that is an improper EP execution. That is something that could happen on a throw-n-tow too. There was a fatality and a CYPRES fire recently at Perris with jumpers jumping a throw-n-tow and had a total. Both jumpers tried and tried again on their throw-n-tow system. They both did not execute proper EPs. It had nothing to do with the type of deployment system the used.

Floater mals or hard pulls have very specific cures. Try again - if you can't get the main handle then pull the reserve.

I can go look up all the folks that died trying to clear a throw-n-tow bridle wrapped around the harness. That may not happen that often today, but you have the premees that have people scrounging for the PC after the main has left the pack tray to take their place. That PC on the bottom of the main pack tray is bouncing around.


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