It seems there are only a few limited teams that do 10 way and you've jumped with all most all of them at Nationals. 10 way seems to be isolated the same way freestyle, CReW or even Style is. A few DZ's have a lot of intrest, but the others don't seem to care about it at all.
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush
I would like to do 10 way, but haven't been able to make it happen yet. The only time I did it for a local competition the rules were that the base-pin had to be #1 and #2 out the door. Was challenging...
So what are the new rules?
pull and flare, lisa --- Mondays suck
quade (D 22635)
Mar 5, 2002, 7:11 PM
Post #5 of 38
I think the reason is that in order to be competitive at 10-way speed you need a LOT of things to fall into place.
It really has to be a DZ culture thing. And of course, you also have to be at a DZ that has a Twin Otter.
It's extremely difficult to get a 4-way together for a season let alone a 10-way. We had a 10-way team at Perris a couple of years ago that trained all season, but it seemed like the roster changed quite a bit over the course of the year.
SDC is kind of a natural location for a 10-way team because of the history of the DZO.
Toward your original point, looking at Nationals tapes over the years it seems to me that most of the successful teams make #3 and #4 the base pin, but I could be wrong.
<<<< would like to do 10 way, but haven't been able to make it happen yet. The only time I did it for a local competition the rules were that the base-pin had to be #1 and #2 out the door. Was challenging...
So what are the new rules?>>>>
It's a whole lot of fun and very challenging to get sub 20 second times. The new rules, as I understand, simply state that everyone starts behind the line, clock starts on crossing the line, and the formation must be initiated by two previously unlinked jumpers (so you can't chunk out the base). Previously there were rules about exiting in serial order in single file, which caused a lot of problems of interpretation and judging.
We put base-pin at #5 and #6 last year, but that puts a lot of pressure on the floaters (I was #1 and the base was quite a ways up there) and slows the exit a little (since the floaters need to turn in the door and the divers don't).
quade (D 22635)
Mar 6, 2002, 10:20 AM
Post #7 of 38
Wow. To me it seems like it would be much more efficient to have more people come down to the base than to go up to it. But again, that's just me, I've never done 10-way -- only watched it.
Yes, well, for selfish reasons (being #1) I wanted B & P to be #4 and #5, but when we did it that way the floaters consistently beat the divers, so we moved B&P back. Then we had personnel changes at the back end and the divers got better, but since we already had the dive flow in place we kept B&P where they were. Fortunately our base was a heavy, fast falling guy and we put 6 pounds of lead on him.
Although the divers have gravity on their side, the floaters get a better picture of what's going on, which helps a lot.
Hey Proff...can ya answer this question from an admitted freeflyer.....What does the term's Base & Pin mean...I mean I know what Da Base is...but how does this apply to 10 way as opposed to 8way,16way etal....
Well, base is the guy that everyone aims for, and pin is the guy that makes the first dock. Although some of the formations make "pin" a bit moot - for example, the way we engineered the triple diamond, pin just set up in front of base and someone else (#4) closed.
<<<Hey Proff...can ya answer this question from an admitted freeflyer.....What does the term's Base & Pin mean...I mean I know what Da Base is...but how does this apply to 10 way as opposed to 8way,16way etal....>>>
There are many formation in the 10 way dive pool. I guess it's the speed of "build it as fast as you can..." that's the real adrenaline pumper. >>>>
There are 12 formations in the pool, 6 are drawn at random for the event. Some are straightforward, like the star and the pinwheel, and some are bloody difficult, like the Raeford Dragon. One of them (Norman's Cross) spins like a top if your aren't careful, and several of them are very floaty which makes it difficult for the last people to get there without going low.
<<<<It seems there are only a few limited teams that do 10 way and you've jumped with all most all of them at Nationals. 10 way seems to be isolated the same way freestyle, CReW or even Style is. A few DZ's have a lot of intrest, but the others don't seem to care about it at all.>>>>
There were 110 skydivers in 10-way at the 2001 Nationals (+ a couple of alternates who jumped). Only 4-way RW and 8-way RW had more participants. 10-way had more participants than all the CRW categories combined, all the Free*** combined and all the accuracy categories combined.
There should be more this year since I hear there will be 4 or 5 teams from Skydive Chicago alone.
All you need is a Twin Otter, 9 buddies, and a liking for full-contact RW.
quade (D 22635)
Mar 7, 2002, 9:21 AM
Post #16 of 38
This is off the subject, but this reminds me of Relative Work in the olden days. Nearly all our formations were round. Everyone was hurrying to get there before time ran out. And yes it was full contact at times. It was fun, challenging, and sometimes quite dangerous. We would rent a DC-3 or Twin beech from the smokejumpers in Missoula. The door was usually small and exits really strung out. Jerry Bird's All Stars even came up to jump with us once during one of our meets. This was back in the days when the World's record star was about 35 people. It was hard to imagine anything bigger, then. A big round with all the baggy jump suits was difficult to fly. Most everyone tried to sit up in the star, but this often put too much pressure on everyones grips. The old days were fun, but I wouldn't want to go back. Skydiving is a much better sport now. I only wish it was cheaper for all to enjoy. When I started I paid $50. for a first jump course. All jumps after were around $5.00 until you could jumpmaster yourself. A 30 second delay after that was around $3.50. I know the money end of things is holding a lot of people back today.
quade (D 22635)
Mar 7, 2002, 9:12 PM
Post #20 of 38
The sum total of my 10-way experience is six 10-way speedstars from the jet, but we always put the base at 3-4 or 4-5, with the thinking that you can dive faster than you can float. Of course the best we ever did was 4th so I'm not sure we chose very well.
<<<< We would rent a DC-3 or Twin beech from the smokejumpers in Missoula. The door was usually small and exits really strung out. >>>>
I think one of the reasons for the 1998-2001 USPA rules was to try to duplicate a DC3 strung-out exit while actually using a TwOtter. Unfortunately, all these rules did was create disputes. I think 10-way as an event can live on its own merits without having to be an 'antique' event. There's just something viscerally exciting about putting together a speedstar against the clock, quite different from point turning in 4-way and 8-way etc. Kind of like downhill ski racing compared with slalom. And the skills I learned on a 10-way team certainly come in useful on big ways.
Quade, I know wages were a lot less back then, but I think it was a lot cheaper then to begin jumping. If I had to lay out hundreds and hundreds of dollars to go with AFF, I'm not sure if I'd do it. I know the only way that many drop zones can make it now is tandems and new students. Actually the price of jumps aren't too bad now for experienced jumpers. Many places you can go to 13,000 out of a twin otter for around $15.00 to $17.00. Even back in the early 70's we were paying about $7.50. But the price of gear really seems out of reason in my opinion. I have heard that what you are really paying for is the technology and that may be true. I sometimes wonder though, if companies had more competition if that would bring prices down some. Back in the 70's you could order a new custom canopy for around $300. I bought a new Super Pro harness and container for around $150. This was the same stuff used by the Golden Knights back then. If you were really broke you could get a complete used rig (B-12 harness and container and 7-TU canopy) for around $75. I know all this gear is considered junk by today's standards but it was state of the art back then. I was just a poor college student working my way through school, yet I could afford to jump. Our jump club in Western Montana is (I believe) the oldest collegiant club in the U.S. But today there are almost no college students in this club. Most of our members are around 30 on up. I think the reason for this is the expense. Just my opinion. Steve
I'm hoping that when Lisa decides to put together a 10-way team
Can't afford to do it this year, but depending on where Nationals are in '03 I just might do that. The few 10 way speed jumps I've done were a total kick in the ass and I'd love to compete at it. And Rumbleseat happens every January...
No worries quade... you'll be the first camera flier I'll ask
pull and flare, lisa -- I'll be in the bar... you'll find me...
quade (D 22635)
Mar 8, 2002, 3:42 PM
Post #25 of 38
Our jump club in Western Montana is (I believe) the oldest collegiant club in the U.S. But today there are almost no college students in this club. Most of our members are around 30 on up. I think the reason for this is the expense.
Maybe you're right. I think it's like everything else though in that you don't pay for what something is actually worth, but for what the market is willing to pay for it.
For instance, you're absolutely correct in that some parts of the country, jump prices are pretty reasonable. However, $15 to $17 for a ride to 12.5 is SoCal would definately be a special event. The general cost of living out here is a bit higher, and I'll admit to that, but the cost of actually running the twin otter probably doesn't need to be up in the $19 range -- it's there because that's what the guy down the street is charging.
Yeah, that kind of sucks, but it's the way we do business here in the U.S..
I can -almost- guarantee that if all the jumpers in SoCal decided someday that $19 was too much, got together, wrote a memo to the DZs and started up over at another airport for $15/jump. Well, things would change.
But that's just not going to happen.
It's the same deal all the way up and down the line. Rigs, jumpsuits, what have you.
As to the specific issue to college students. I think that has a lot to do with the local DZ culture. If the majority of your jumpers are over 30, then why the heck would most college students want to hang out with them? Ok, that sounds harsh, but it's human nature to want to hang out with people of your own kind.
Just out of curiosity, does your club actually market to the college crowd? Ya know, make demos into the football games and stuff like that. I mean, how would they even know you exist?
Actually Steve, what you are paying for in your gear is the legal fees that are sure to be assesed at some point. A Cessna 152 would only cost a bit over $15000 in raw costs if none of the companies involved had to worry about lawsuits. There is no reason why a bolt should cost $15, but they have to figure that they can use the $10 markup on the legal fees associated with a lawsuit when a undertrained/under experienced dead pilots family sues them. A new 152 is upwards of $50000 But, Cessna is just making an annual profit.... why? A single lawsuit can cost them 1-2 million in damages so they have to overcharge the rest of the people to have the money around to payout a lawsuit.
Gear is the same way. If a tandem goes in.. you can bet that the Whuffos family will be lawsuit happy. They are getting the DZ, the rig maker, probally the pilot, anyone associated with the rig or componets. Well.... RWS holds the licence on the 3 ring so they will be named, Airtec for the CyPReS, Strong, Icarus or PD for the main or reserve and who ever made the rig itsself. All these companies have to incorperate the legal fees into the rest of thier gear.
Sorry for the drift of this one Prof...
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush
quade (D 22635)
Mar 8, 2002, 3:48 PM
Post #27 of 38
No problem - I've been trying to keep a college club alive for the past 4 years, and slowly it's died out as students decide they can't afford the cost, what with tuition costing so much these days. Roger even gave the club a pretty good discount and I tossed in $10 towards the cost of an AFP jump for any club member, but it still is getting out of reach of college students.
<<<<<Can't afford to do it this year, but depending on where Nationals are in '03 I just might do that. The few 10 way speed jumps I've done were a total kick in the ass and I'd love to compete at it. And Rumbleseat happens every January...>>>>>
It is indeed a kick-ass event and a lot of fun. Not only that, you get to go head to head with Airspeed and Deguello and the Knights without too much embarrassment (assuming a reasonable level of skill) - had a bunch of beers with them in the bar after the event. Hard to do that if you're a first-year 4-way team.
Thats good to hear. The GT Sport Parachute club had a period where there was 1 active jumper, enough to barely hold our charter. But in the past 12 months, we are up to 10 active jumpers, recruiting every 3 months or so, the club is still young (in age of jumper, the clubs been there since the late 60's) but we have alot of support. 2 of us are working on our coach rateings to then go on to AFF to lower student cost for AFF from 1000 to 500. And weve formed a stong 4 way team thats planning on makeing 200-250 training jumps and about 10 hours of tunnel. My goal by next year is 40 active jumpers.
Quade, You do have a good point. Maybe there are too many old farts in our club. It's great for me because I know a lot of them from the olden days. My daughters will both be in college next year. I've been trying to get them interested in jumping as members of my old club. My oldest daughter made the same point. There's almost noone there her age. The owner of this DZ does actively recruit from this college making a lot of demo and stadium jumps. He does a lot of tandems with college students, but almost none of them continue. I only jump there occasionally now. In fact the only college student that I can remember in our club was one rich kid who seemed to have more money than sense..... I'm just wondering if I jumped with you at Perris over Christmas. We had a cameraman on a couple of our jumps. I was the good looking elderly gentleman with bugs in his teeth. Do you remember me?
Quade, It was at the end of December. We had Melon Head for a load organizer on a couple loads. Then there was another guy, for a load organizer, who works as a magician and acting coach. I'm sure you know him. And then we had another guy from England, who has been in Perris a long time, as and organizer. As you can tell my memory is poor. But what a wonderful place to jump. I've been coming to Perris, over Christmas, for the past two years. I can't wait to jump there again. Montana sucks this time of year. Last night it was 25 below. Steve