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Tandem Masters shooting own video?

 


SkydiveMO  (D License)

Feb 13, 2004, 7:15 AM
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Tandem Masters shooting own video? Can't Post

The topic of tandem masters shooting their own videos and how it is done was raised in the Photography and Video forum.

http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=916687;

I would like to raise the question; is this safe and should it be allowed? I would think a tandem master shooting their own video would fit into the same category as static-line jumpmasters also piloting the jump aircraft (which is no longer allowed). It can be done, but should it? I know tandem masters who currently shoot their own video and are quite safe. However, I also can see the argument that added distractions for the instructor lowers the safety level for the student. I havent decided if tandem master video is a good idea or not, what do you think?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 13, 2004, 7:32 AM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think tandem masters shooting their own video is a good idea - provided they follow guidelines published by the Australian Parachute Federation: minimum 500 tandem jumps, briefing by DZ Safety Officer, etc.

Let's face it, skill varies widely and cannot be measured by jump numbers alone. Some TMs have extensive freefall photography experience before they ever strap on a student. As soon as saving the lives of their students becomes second nature, they can safely strap a camera on their left hand.
On the other hand, some TMs never quite "get it." They need every brain cell - and then some - just to keep themselves alive. Forget about allowing them to jump with any extra gadgets. Fortunately these people usually have the sense to quit before they make the (APF) minimum 500 tandem jumps.

There are also strength and currency issues.
The more arm muscle you have, then less you need your left arm for exits and the steadier you can hold the camera.
As for currency, during my first few dozen jumps every spring I am just trying to remember all the tricks I need to stay alive, but by the time I have made my 200th tandem of the year I am starting to get bored and am looking for a new challenge.
That's when I sew up a new camera mount.
Hee! Hee!


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Feb 13, 2004, 7:50 AM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I'm just coming up on a hundred tandems so its kinda like asking someone with a hundred jumps something about training.

My current opinion is; to me its worth the additonal fifty bucks to let someone else who's whole reason to exist on the skydive is to ensure good quality video and pics of that person's skydive and let me focus on the impotent shit.

I may have a different opinion after a thousand tandems... but, I am also a laggard when it comes to adding additional variables to a skydive.

I tend to treat those variables like new Microsoft applications or versions... I let everyone else test it first, find out the bugs, get several opinions about the product and then have someone demonstrate it for me before I buy off on it.


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 13, 2004, 7:58 AM
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Re: [nightjumps] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got about 250 tandems, my training has been the best around and I'm jumping the best gear available, so a lot of the variables are gone.

However.

There's no way in hell I'd even bother with shooting the video myself. Not now, not at any time I could see in the future.

For one, I think the student deserves the best quality they can get, and for me, that means the guy on the DZ with the most skill, with a top notch video and a top notch digital SLR (for instance Cannon D10) for stills. That does not mean some monkeyfucked contraption that I use to video the jump off my hand (sorry Rob, I know you make a version of the Handycam).

Also, I think about the times when things go wrong, I sure as hell wouldn't want something attatched to my hand while I'm trying to fix whatever had gone wrong. Specifically, I think about the side-spin I had, I sure as hell wouldn't have needed a camera on my hand after that fucknut student tried to kill the two of us.


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Feb 13, 2004, 8:19 AM)


jdthomas  (D License)

Feb 13, 2004, 9:04 AM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

 I have a good number of tandems now and I had my first cutaway on a tandem this past summer.
I don't see that I would need to add a camera into the mix of things going during the jump. especially during cutaway time!!!!
And hows that video footage coming out if you are doing your handle checks? is it really worth it? Not to me!


lazyfrog

Feb 13, 2004, 9:18 AM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

the only ones I've seen doin it in my short skydiving life were australians form skydive interlaken (i think) which were jumping at our dropzone.
I feel it's strange, maybe because I never self portrayed myself in a jump...
but seen a funny vid with a passenger puking Crazy


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Feb 13, 2004, 11:09 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think tandem masters shooting their own video is a good idea...

I REALLY think you should be qualifying this with your obvious conflict of interest.

For those who don't know, Rob is in the business of making and selling wrist-mount camera mounts, among other things.

_Am


boxingrrl  (D 25469)

Feb 13, 2004, 11:12 AM
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Re: [jdthomas] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
And hows that video footage coming out if you are doing your handle checks?

And how's the footage if you do really need to fly that exit? The thing that is so cool about tandem videos is that they preserve a once in a lifetime experience. It sucks so bad when the video doesn't come out. That person will never have their first skydive again. Purely from a customer service perspective, I think you can give a better product, more reliably and safer by sticking to outside video.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Feb 13, 2004, 1:25 PM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's a very bad idea. A camera adds a distraction, and a potential line snag point. I suppose it can be done with just a little more risk by some of the best tandem instructors, most of the time, but there will always be unexpected jumps when it increases risk, and many instructors can't handle any increase in workload or distraction.

The only benefit to having a tandem instructor carry the camera is to save money by eliminating the camera flyer, or maximize profit by packing more tandems in an airplane. Those are crummy reasons to reduce the safety margins.

Our students deserve the safest possible flight with the lowest risks we can provide. There is never a good reason to increase risk beyond that required for a basic tandem.

For what it's worth, I have made about 1,000 tandems on the Strong, Racer, Vector, and Sigma rigs.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
S&TA
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy


SkydiveMO  (D License)

Feb 13, 2004, 1:41 PM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Link to a hand-cam website...

http://members.westnet.com.au/...roducts/hand-cam.htm


skygirl1  (A 45811)

Feb 14, 2004, 5:58 AM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my good friends is a tandem master.....he wears a small camera on his hand..........so the tandem passenger still gets video from a video man....but the master can get up close and personal shots under canopy of his student..........it is really cool...............the small camera on his wrist would not prevent him from cutting away...............

skygirl1


lopullterri  (D 20814)

Feb 14, 2004, 1:52 PM
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Re: [tombuch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

  [Our students deserve the safest possible flight with the lowest risks we can provide. There is never a good reason to increase risk beyond that required for a basic tandem.]
Quote:
I agree with you 100%. My husband and I discussed this issue. He has over 1400 Tandems, I have approx. 600 tandem videos. The student deserves an instructor that is devoting all of their attention to the tandem experience and a video person who is devoting all of their attention to a good and safe video. Its a bad idea for another reason. If one instructor does it, the rest of the instructors at that DZ feel compelled to do the same...even if they aren't very experienced with tandems. It could push people into doing something that they have no business doing.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Feb 14, 2004, 2:13 PM
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Re: [skygirl1] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the small camera on his wrist would not prevent him from cutting away...............

So imagine a radical spinning malfunction that requires both hands to pull the cutaway handle, resulting in a horrible unstable spinning cutaway and reserve deployment. I'd rather not have extra junk on my hands to reduce my pull ability, distract my mind, or snag lines.

Those nasty spinners and hard pulls are rare, but they do happen. I've been there. I'd hate to be the first guy to catch that kind of fatality on video. That's just not very cool. Our students deserve better.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
S&TA
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 15, 2004, 12:50 AM
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Re: [tombuch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wasn't jumping back in the "day", but I can imagine when just tandems started coming out, I'm sure there were people saying "what the fu__? Why the hell would you want to strap someone to the front of you, when just jumping is scarry enough!?". I was basicaly forced into doing handy. I didn't like it at first, and still really don't. BUT, it's not all that bad. And as long as we don't let just any ass do it, I think life will be just fine for everyone. I agree, it DOES NOT even come close to outside video, but it is a nice alternative. Another big issue is "can handycam and outside video co-exist at the same DZ"? It didn't where I'm at.


skydiver51  (F License)

Feb 15, 2004, 5:23 AM
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

If all tandem masters shouldn't do it and it isn't comparable to what a camera flyer takes then why take the added risk? I take tandem and aff video and from what I have observed on tandem jumps, the tandem master wouldn't get very much video at all when a camera will get the whole jump. Is it really worth the extra money to take the added risk??


boxingrrl  (D 25469)

Feb 15, 2004, 5:55 AM
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
I was basicaly forced into doing handy. I didn't like it at first, and still really don't.

This is one of my concerns. Qualified tandemmasters shouldn't have to add a camera to the skydive in order to work.

Quote:
And as long as we don't let just any ass do it, I think life will be just fine for everyone.

But, if given the choice between continuing gainful employment and having to move along, some less experienced tandemmasters, or those without the best judgement may decide to go with the handy. Forcing tandemmasters to do it pretty much guarantees that "any ass" is going to end up with a camera on their hand.

Quote:
Another big issue is "can handycam and outside video co-exist at the same DZ"? It didn't where I'm at.

By trying to save money and eliminating outside videographers from the work pool, these DZ's are also effectively eliminating potential AFF jumpmasters and future tandem masters. True, fewer staff means more $ for those left, but increased burn-out and decreased safety due to fatigue and distraction could be the fallout.

Ultimately, it's up to the individual to stay within their own limits and skydive accordingly. That doesn't make it right for DZO's to coerce staff into compromising their safety and the students' safety in order to increase profit.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 15, 2004, 9:43 AM
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Re: [tombuch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

So imagine a radical spinning malfunction that requires both hands to pull the cutaway handle, resulting in a horrible unstable spinning cutaway and reserve deployment. I'd rather not have extra junk on my hands to reduce my pull ability, distract my mind, or snag lines.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The better hand-mounts leave your palms and fingers free to pull handles.
They also mount the altimeter close to the lens .. so you need to invent a new excuse for pulling low.
Hee! Hee!


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 15, 2004, 1:20 PM
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Re: [boxingrrl] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

all very good points. My situation is a little different in that where I work isn't your typical DZ. We do ONLY tandems, and fun jumpers, or anyone else for that matter isn't welcome. We cater mainly to Japanese tourist. My commitment here is 6 months, and to stay here and work, handycam was part of the deal. The video is actually better than most of you think, at least the ones who have never seen it, or have only seen shitty video. And what about the student who just can't afford a full blown video? This is a cheaper alternative.

Quote:
Ultimately, it's up to the individual to stay within their own limits and skydive accordingly. That doesn't make it right for DZO's to coerce staff into compromising their safety and the students' safety in order to increase profit

Lets hope that in our "self policing", that we don't let this happen, or at least, voice out opinions when we see something like this happen.

These stills were pulled off of a video. Now for those of you who have never seen it, what do you think?

Just a note, I started doing video LONG before I did tandems, and I'm not a big advocate of handy. I just some of you to see the other side before making a judgement.
Attachments: handy1.JPG (18.0 KB)
  handy2.JPG (16.3 KB)
  handy3.JPG (16.0 KB)


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Feb 16, 2004, 7:58 AM
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In looking at pictures 2 & 3 and your relation to the aircraft... I am at that point in my Tandem dive where;

If I have deployed the drogue, I'm looking over my shoulder to check for drogue inflation and doing my handles checks.

Where are you at this point in the dive? Have you already done that? <Asked to learn more about the handycam>


(This post was edited by nightjumps on Feb 16, 2004, 7:59 AM)


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 16, 2004, 8:15 AM
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Looking at the first picture (opening), it looks like you unnecessairly present your left arm to the student, where she can grab it in stress and hold on to it, preventing you from using it should you need to...Crazy


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 16, 2004, 12:31 PM
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Re: [nightjumps] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Neither pics have the drogue deployed. I don't pitch it until I'm either stable, or have the "window" of opportunity. I don't toss it right out the door. As for handle checks, you can still do them.

And as for me holding the camera in front on opening, yeah, my hand (mostly my upper arm) gets grabbed, but you just reach over with the other hand and start slapping or removing fingers. It's all in the training. And if they grab you, and you film it, then they get to see that they DID do it, because most don't remember anyway. I've also filmed 3 students with their hand completely around the reserve handle. That scares me the most. But I think good training, and then being heads up takes care of most of that. I guess the rest would be pure blind luck.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Feb 16, 2004, 1:32 PM
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Neither pics have the drogue deployed. I don't pitch it until I'm either stable, or have the "window" of opportunity. I don't toss it right out the door. As for handle checks, you can still do them.

And as for me holding the camera in front on opening, yeah, my hand (mostly my upper arm) gets grabbed.

You just convinced me that hand held camera work by a tandem instructor is beyond stupid. I didn't like the idea prior to reading this latest post, but now I'm convinced it is outright dangerous.

When working with real students the exit should be flown for stability, then the drogue should be deployed. Flying and reaching for a camera shot prior to drogue throw is nuts. It is at this point the the student is most scared and most likely to grab an arm, and you are in real jeopardy until that drogue has been thrown. Likewise, there is always the risk of a side spin until the drogue is out, so an odd body position coupled with delay adds significant risk.

I have made more than 1,000 tandems and have only had a student get quick access to my hand once. I never gave them the opportunity after that. Using the camera obviously increases the risk of an arm grab, and that alone is reason enough to reject the concept.

Sorry, I believe the students safety should always come first. The tandem alone presents plenty of risk, we don't need to be adding to that risk. The student deserves better.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
S&TA
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Feb 16, 2004, 2:08 PM
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for the pictures and the response. I think I'll pass on the handycam.


Jimbo  (D License)

Feb 16, 2004, 7:05 PM
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
These stills were pulled off of a video. Now for those of you who have never seen it, what do you think?

Honestly, I don't like them. Video and stills from a separate video guy would look better, I think.

-
Jim


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 16, 2004, 7:32 PM
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Re: [tombuch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's understandable why you guys think it's bad news. I still really don't know how I feel about it. If I had a choice, I wouldn't do them. But if I say no, then I'm back to oregon to do nothing but sit in the rain, and make no $$$. So for right now, I'm ok with it. When I do have handy, I put a lot more extra time into training the students about the exit. Yeah, it's the scarriest part.

On the bright side, after doing 200+ handy's in 4 months, I'm pretty damn rock solid when I don't have handy.


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 16, 2004, 9:05 PM
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If I had a choice, I wouldn't do them. But if I say no, then I'm back to oregon to do nothing but sit in the rain, and make no $$$.

What does the S&TA think about you "having" to possibly compromise what you might consider safe for the DZ to make money and for you to keep your job as an instructor?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 16, 2004, 10:07 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Jumping first-generation tandem mains was far more dangerous than jumping with a camera strapped to my hand: 14 tandem reserve rides, only one of them deployed at terminal. All the rest were after cutting away from line knots, broken lines or torn canopies. I also landed more torn tandem canopies than I care to remember.

Finally, giving the choice between jumping with a bumbling junior cameraman or doing it all myself, I would much rather jump with a handy-cam.


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 16, 2004, 11:52 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

S&TA? That's pretty funny. We do ONLY tandems, and it's not a USPA sanctioned DZ. In fact, you can't really call it a DZ. It's a place where I work, and do tandems. My options are to do them, or leave.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Feb 17, 2004, 12:53 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jumping first-generation tandem mains was far more dangerous than jumping with a camera strapped to my hand: 14 tandem reserve rides, only one of them deployed at terminal. All the rest were after cutting away from line knots, broken lines or torn canopies. I also landed more torn tandem canopies than I care to remember.

Finally, giving the choice between jumping with a bumbling junior cameraman or doing it all myself, I would much rather jump with a handy-cam.

I jumped those early tandems too and am very happy the manufacturers have improved the systems. Somehow I survived the old Strong 520's! The accident rates are much lower these days, and we should do everything we can to keep them low. That means taking advantage of the improvements and targeting zero failures, not looking to the past accident rates as a benchmark to achieve.

My choice is to keep the improvements of better canopies and reject the potential added risk of a hand camera.

As for beginner tandem video flyers...yup, you are right, but you shouldn't have beginners bumbling around on your tandem jumps. Remember when the manufacturers required camera flyers to also have AFF ratings and tons of camera experience before shooting a tandem? Stick to that tried and true standard rather than using tandem jumps to train new camera flyers. Heck, you can go one better and also require that your tandem camera flyers have a tandem rating so they know what's up from your perspective.

Let's target improvements in safety and not focus so much on driving volume or profit. Our students look to us to make their skydive as safe as possible within the limits of the sport. We should meet their expectations.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
S&TA
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy


DutchSkyCam  (D 22224)

Feb 17, 2004, 5:42 AM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

As a cameraman of over 1000 Tandem video jumps and a tandemmaster with around 500 tandemjumps,
I was asked by my DZO if handycam wouldn't be an option in our operation. We both agreed that a real cameraflyer delivers better footage than a handycam.
The problem is that sometimes I am the only cameraflyer AND the only tandemmaster. (The DZO is a tandemmaster, but he rather stays on the ground).

I told him I would refuse to jump it. For several reasons.
#1) Safety,
I don't like showing/presenting my hand/arms to the student.
#2) Quality,
The students have a better video to show at home so a higher return rate. Many of our tandem customers are comming because they saw video of relatives or co-workers....
#3) money,
In the season we get more tandems than we can handle, so selling them tandems AND video gives a higher profit. At least one or two cameramen can make some money while I do the tandems.
If there are no other cameramen around, The DZO can do the tandems and I do the video.

Barry


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 17, 2004, 7:00 AM
Post #31 of 87 (1663 views)
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have seen some very good handicam footage. Beezy Shaw does it all the time at Chris Martin's dropzone in TN. I have also held and examined Rob's mount; it's very nice. With the device on, I still have full range of motion with my wrist and had no problem whatsoever getting to my handles with my tandem rig on. I think that in the right hands handicam is a great tool. It fits perfectly into Cessna operations and, once again, in the correct hands, makes it entirely possible to get two tandems with paid video in a 182. The system also works fantastically on the wrist of very-experienced reserve-side AFF instructors. Actually, I think the video from that usage are even better than the tandem ones. I am going to end up getting one, but wouldn't dare jump a camera as big as our PC-120 in it. I have what is probably the best answer to that problem already though: bullet cam mounted on the top of your hand. Less weight, faster reflexes in case some monkey does try to grab your wrist.

Chuck


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 17, 2004, 8:08 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

skymonkeyone,
I too looked at a couple of different bullet cams, but could not figure out where to hang the video camera case on a tandem instructor crammed into a Cessna.
Where do you mount your recorder?
Remember that I am six feet tall, 190 pounds and occasionally get stuffed in beside the pilots of narrow-body Cessna 182s.
That is because I am not our largest instructor.
Hee! Hee!


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Feb 17, 2004, 9:10 AM
Post #33 of 87 (1640 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I too looked at a couple of different bullet cams, but could not figure out where to hang the video camera case on a tandem instructor crammed into a Cessna.
Where do you mount your recorder?

Thought about this too and thought the only place would be on the front of the student, but that leaves a lot of messy cable routing.

A tandem instructor/examiner at my dropzone sometimes fits a belly mounted bag with streamers in (like the ones used at the Royal Sky celebrations in Thailand) to the student to trail when under canopy.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Feb 17, 2004, 10:04 AM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

What is the point of a tandem master shooting video? What would he video??


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Feb 17, 2004, 10:32 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

As I stated earlier, with my level of experience on tandems, I may wait awhile until embracing the handycam.

I do wonder - if rather than having a handycam; if there would be as much concern with a student harness chest-strap mounted mini-cam.

We used to strap an altimeter chest cushion on students prior to going to wrist mounts... What if someone were to develop a mini-cam chest mount for the student's harness?

OR... what if we put the handi-cam on the student? They could do all the videoing, leaving our arms free and once we're in stable freefall we could grab their wrists to direct some additional footage. This would prevent us from placing our hands in front of them to grab.

Just some thoughts...


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 17, 2004, 11:11 AM
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Re: [nightjumps] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What if someone were to develop a mini-cam chest mount for the student's harness?

That's not a bad idea, put something like a .3 on it. Although they'd get some nice "up nose" shots.Tongue


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 17, 2004, 11:21 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Rob, I have not done it yet, but know exactly what I need to do to make it happen. The smaller PC and IP cameras will easily fit in a cypres bag-sized container which you can sling under one shoulder under your jumpsuit. Not at all in the way.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Feb 18, 2004, 2:21 AM
Post #38 of 87 (1577 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The smaller PC and IP cameras will easily fit in a cypres bag-sized container which you can sling under one shoulder under your jumpsuit.

You would also need to route and mount a CamEye Sport to control the camera as well as the bullet cam.

In reply to:
Not at all in the way

Well, maybe a little ;-)


SkydiveMO  (D License)

Feb 18, 2004, 8:24 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think tandem masters shooting their own video is a good idea - provided they follow guidelines published by the Australian Parachute Federation: minimum 500 tandem jumps, briefing by DZ Safety Officer, etc.

In the US, neither USPA nor the Tandem Manufacturers have outlined any guidelines for the use of video equipment by tandem instructors. Anyone with a rating can strap on a camera without training or experience and make a jump. We all know there are many dynamics to tandem skydives which require the full attention of the tandem master to insure the safety of their student. Handle checks should be made every jump and stable body position should always be the priority on exit to insure clean drogue deployment. Can these requirements be safely met with a camera weighing down one of your hands? Will geeking the camera take priority over handle checks? I think these are some valid concerns with the use of the hand mount systems. I just hope proper training will be introduced in the US before the first incident or fatality involving a tandem with hand-mount video.

I do agree that with proper training and experience that the system can be used safely. It gives students video at dropzones where it might not otherwise be offered. I can also see the benefit of maximizing the profits of a dropzone by cutting out the extra videographer. However, I have always aired on the side of caution when it comes to students. They entrust their safety with me as their Tandem Instructor and I take that very seriously. I can foresee to many cases where a camera mounted on my hand could cause difficulties in an emergency situation to make it worth the added risk. Its a great product and I would love to have one for my personal use. As for tandems Ill pass.


(This post was edited by SkydiveMO on Feb 18, 2004, 8:30 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 18, 2004, 9:51 AM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I think tandem masters shooting their own video is a good idea - provided they follow guidelines published by the Australian Parachute Federation: minimum 500 tandem jumps, briefing by DZ Safety Officer, etc.

In the US, neither USPA nor the Tandem Manufacturers have outlined any guidelines for the use of video equipment by tandem instructors.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This gets into one of those grey areas where we argue "legalese" instead of common sense. Just because USPA or the FAA has not published a law does not mean that Americans are free to do anything they want.
As professionals, we are ethically bound to follow industry standards. Since Australians have the most experience and have already published standards, we are ethically bound to follow APF standards until USPA publishes an American standard.

The same thing happens every day in rigging lofts around the planet. For example, the whole issue of what to do with "orphaned" round reserves from the acid-mesh era is rather vague. Since CSPA is the only organization to publish a Technical Bulletin (when in doubt: pH and pull test orphaned reserves) conscientious riggers follow CSPA guidelines.

BY "orphaned" we mean round reserves that were built by factories that subsequently closed.

When in doubt, work to the highest standard. In the long run, no-body cares whether it is an Australian or Brazilian standard, as long as you can wave a piece of paper in court.


SkydiveMO  (D License)

Feb 18, 2004, 10:26 AM
Post #41 of 87 (1533 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This gets into one of those grey areas where we argue "legalese" instead of common sense. Just because USPA or the FAA has not published a law does not mean that Americans are free to do anything they want.

I agree, Im not concerned with new rules or regulations. What I would like to see is guidelines set for training, currency, etc. set by the USPA or the tandem manufacturers regarding the hand-mount cameras use. I have never even considered studying what all of the other skydiving governing bodies have regulated. I have enough trouble keeping up with all of the changes with the USPAs training program.

By strapping on the camera a tandem master adds to their overall responsibilities on the jump, some would say they add a whole new distraction. It would be nice to think that instructors would use common sense regarding their ability to handle the added responsibility. Sometimes common sense is in short supply and some people need a little extra guidance.


pullhigh  (D 22774)

Feb 19, 2004, 5:31 AM
Post #42 of 87 (1493 views)
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Re: [skygirl1] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Assuming your page is current, at 17 jumps, I wouldn't consider you a "voice of expertise" on what will or won;t prevent a tandem master from cutting away...

Sorry,
Ganja


piisfish

Feb 19, 2004, 5:35 AM
Post #43 of 87 (1489 views)
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Re: [pullhigh] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

maybe that's what she heard from her friend which is the actual tandem pilot flying the mentionned camera Tongue


pullhigh  (D 22774)

Feb 19, 2004, 5:36 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Palms may be free, but wouldn't the added weight on your wrist make it harder to pull your hand in to grab your handles?

Ganja


piisfish

Feb 19, 2004, 6:07 AM
Post #45 of 87 (1483 views)
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Re: [pullhigh] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know the system he uses, but maybe the mini camera she is talking about is this kind of "extension" with just a lens and a cable, size would be like a pen.
In any case, the weight would not be a big problem, the size of the camera could be more problematic, with risks of getting caught where it shouldn't


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 19, 2004, 6:44 AM
Post #46 of 87 (1474 views)
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Re: [pullhigh] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

With the smaller cameras (IP-5 variety and even the smaller TRV's) it's very light and worn in a manner that doesn't really restrict anything. I was pretty surprised.


pullhigh  (D 22774)

Feb 19, 2004, 7:05 AM
Post #47 of 87 (1468 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

The issue I resonded too was a violent spin. In a spin, momentum makes it hard to bring your arms in. Many people have trouble pulling their handles during a spinning line twist malfunction on a sport rig. My thoughts are that in a spin, the momentum would be magnified by any amount of weigth being added to the wrist. I know this is not the normal run of the mill issue, but remember, "It's not just another skydive".

I have never found myslef in a spin like this, and hope that I never will. I was responding to the idea that it is a possibility, and that any added weight would magnify the issue. I have not yet jumped one, but am not opposed to giving it my honest review though if someone wants to loan me one.

FYI I have a littl over 1500 jumps, including almost 500 tandems. I'm not the mst experienced by any means, but do fell like I am experienced enough for my inoput to be valuable.

Ganja


pccoder  (A 43773)

Feb 19, 2004, 9:46 AM
Post #48 of 87 (1453 views)
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't taken the time to read this thread yet, but right off the bat it just seems to me like that is one extra thing that the tandem master has to deal with, which sounds like it adds at least at some level a bit more danger to the situation.

Maybe like driving and talking on the cellphone Wink


(This post was edited by pccoder on Feb 19, 2004, 9:46 AM)


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 19, 2004, 3:04 PM
Post #49 of 87 (1436 views)
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Re: [pccoder] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Maybe like driving and talking on the cellphone


and putting the make up on, with a cup of joe.

For me, the thing that gets me the most worried is when I am taking a very pitite gal (like 80-100lbs) and the load is going to 8K. While I'm moving to the door, I'm saying in my head "MUST HAVE GOOD CLEAN EXIT!". (I'm talking about the ones with handycam)


WayCool  (D License)

Feb 20, 2004, 1:57 AM
Post #50 of 87 (1415 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

The IP model cameras when mounted in Hand-Cam gloves are so so small that it would be a pretty tough argument to say they would constitute a safety issue. It's a shame that Sony changed away from the mini DV format with these instead of just the media because They are a very small and safe Hand-Cam option Especially the IP5 & 7 in the Classic configuration.


WayCool  (D License)

Feb 20, 2004, 2:03 AM
Post #51 of 87 (1944 views)
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here are the APF rules http://members.westnet.com.au/...eair/html/safety.htm


tombuch  (D 8514)

Feb 20, 2004, 3:52 AM
Post #52 of 87 (1941 views)
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Re: [WayCool] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The IP model cameras when mounted in Hand-Cam gloves are so so small that it would be a pretty tough argument to say they would constitute a safety issue. It's a shame that Sony changed away from the mini DV format with these instead of just the media because They are a very small and safe Hand-Cam option Especially the IP5 & 7 in the Classic configuration.

Umm, what about placing your hand in front of the student to "get the shot" and getting grabbed instead? What about the mental distraction of shooting when all is going to hell?

Tom Buchanan


skygirl1  (A 45811)

Feb 20, 2004, 4:56 AM
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Post deleted by skygirl1 [In reply to]

 


skygirl1  (A 45811)

Feb 20, 2004, 5:03 AM
Post #54 of 87 (1933 views)
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Re: [skygirl1] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you are completely correct........and even with thousands of jumps I would not consider myself an expert...........all i know is my friend whom is the tandem master has thousands of jumps in and uses this tiny camera that fits by his alti.......and he can film students under canopy.............
no offense taken but you should see how small this camera is..........you do not even know he has it on his wrist unless he shows it to you..........as SKYMONKEY 1 has stated there are some very small wrist mount cameras available.........he does not put his hand in front of the students face........he just turns his wrist and has the priceless face shot and all the exhilerhated screaming under canopy......

skygirl1

skygirl1


WayCool  (D License)

Feb 20, 2004, 6:17 AM
Post #55 of 87 (1928 views)
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Re: [tombuch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry I should have been more specific. I was mainly talking about the issues raised earlier about camera weight in relation to G forces and hand use restriction.

Although I will say that these gloves have been in use for over 3 years in Australia with the restrictions placed by the APF and there have not been any serious incidents reported. Is it not posible that most tandem masters who are qualified for and comfortable with using a Hand-cam glove can exercise their own good judgement and necessary discretion before placing an arm in a vulnerable position? I believe it is possible to get video and be out of reach of the passenger, although the variety of shots and overall quality will suffer. My point is that the tandem master is in a position to make this decision on a case by case basis.

Hopefully instructors using these gloves will be competent and aware enough to make the right call with all the decisions involved including the decision to totally disregard the video when "all is going to hell".
Everything has an element of risk and I'm not saying that this is for everyone, these guidelines go some way to help ensure this:

- Minimum experience of 500 tandems
- Recommendation by CI with log book
- endorsement
- CI approval of camera and mount
- Undergo course of instruction by DZSO
- One jump with a licensed jumper before taking a student
- An audible altimeter is mandatory

I would also say that Hand-Cam doesn't even compare to outside photo/video and is a tool to allow DZs more flexability. Operations with lots of staff and lift capacity will hopefully realise the need to keep the new instructors coming through the ranks of video and AFF etc.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 20, 2004, 9:53 AM
Post #56 of 87 (1911 views)
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Re: [WayCool] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

The simplest way to prevent students from grabbing your camera hand is keeping your hands so far out they cannot grab them. If you are are holding the camera at full arms' extension, the worst they can do is grab your biceps. Not a big issue as my biceps is stronger than most of my students' hands.


GroundZero  (A 9044)

Feb 21, 2004, 11:43 PM
Post #57 of 87 (1891 views)
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Re: [tombuch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, I have to jump in here.

Seems like 2 groups of responses here.

1) It's added responsibility and risks. Don't do it. ...These are coming from people who sound uncomfortable with the whole idea of tandem in the first place, even if they have 1000+ tandem skydives. Prior to doing hand-cam tandem videos, you should be VERY comfortable with your abilities as a tandem instructor. Period. (This group also includes video people who feel they are being passed by.)

or...

2) I have experience with the system and I see it's merits, while understanding the additional workload.

As a dzo (yes, the guy who reaps the additional profits and makes unlimited "free" jumps...), the system has great merits.

As a tandem instructor, it captures the MOST important part that everyother video person has missed on every tandem skydive I've made, the first comments after deployment. I challenge any video person to show me the under-canopy footage of the grandmother talking about her orgasm. You video people miss the Most important shot. Sorry, but you all seem to go do your own thing at this point... you should really find a way to hang around and film the subject at their greatest moment. Until you can, this medium far surpasses yours.

The video is about the student, and every conventional video person does not have the capabilities that the tandem person has to be there the entire skydive.

Added workload and responsibility, damn right! It was one step up getting your rating. It will be a step up again when you can capture every moment of your students experience. The skydive is about the student, this is the way to capture it all. It does require experience and a certain comfort level that many will never have.

The comments about the frame grabs of the student after exit, pre-drogue are unfounded. There were days with no drogue and we flew those fine. The purpose of the drogue is to ease deployment. Stability caused by the drogue is secondary... if you are drogue dependent for stability, you are in the wrong field.

Until you fully understand this concept, and have experience with it, do not condemn it.

Tom, perhaps Rob can send you a loaner. After jumping it, in whatever way makes you comfortable, I'd love to hear your comments then.

Chris


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 22, 2004, 9:32 AM
Post #58 of 87 (1884 views)
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Re: [GroundZero] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

There were days with no drogue and we flew those fine. The purpose of the drogue is to ease deployment. Stability caused by the drogue is secondary... if you are drogue dependent for stability, you are in the wrong field.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Reading between the lines of the NO posters, I am getting the impression that since they never mastered the basics of stability, they never gained the confidence to jump handy-cam.
The clue is found in their fear that students will grab their camera hand.
First of all, if your camera hand is close enough for a student to grab, then you are getting magnificent footage of their nostril hairs, but completely missing the pretty snow-capped mountains in the background.

However, holding your hands close enough to video their nostril hairs hints at a far greater problem: hands too close to student. If your hands are that close, you are either god's gift to skydiving or you are unstable.
At six feet tall, I have a height advantage over most of my students and I flatly refuse to give up any of my advantage. My tandem ground school teaches students to do a small, relaxed box-man with hands on their chest aka "giant banana."
I do the exact opposite, fully extending my arms and legs into the biggest, widest X position I can muster until after I have tossed the drogue and slowed the spin. The worse the student de-arches, the more I arch. A few times I have strained my hop flexor muscles trying to arch enough for both of us. If the student is profoundly unstable, I don't relax my giant X-shaped arch until after opening.

The end result is stable exits nine times out of ten from a veriety of Cessnas and King Airs. That should be your minimum performance standard before you even contemplate straping on a handy-cam.


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 22, 2004, 1:27 PM
Post #59 of 87 (1878 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally agree with Rob. If you are one of the guys who chucks the drogue RIGHT out the door, then you are probably one of the ones that has an issue about getting stable and the handy is probably not for you.


Vasskydive  (D 16844)

Aug 28, 2004, 12:23 AM
Post #60 of 87 (1798 views)
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm in this sport for 34 years and doing tandems
fool time for 12 years.
I have a lot of jumps a lot of tandems and camera jumps.
And I'm doing handycams for last 14 months.
Ok. If you have to chose between outside video and
handycams what is more dangerous?
For 14 months I never had any problems with handycams.
But doing tandem jump with cameraman I had so many times
cameraman riding on my back on exit. I had several time cameraman
hitting me in FF( one time it was so hard so I had to turn sideways other
wise he would brake my neck). I had half conscious cameraman spinning in
front of me so I had to push him away to open my parachute and he pulled the
same time it was just luck that we didn't collide.
I had cameraman falling inches from my nose on the opening
and a lot of openings at the same high.
Probably everybody remembers a few years ago cameraman killed tandem student.
My point is that I feel much safer to jump with handycam than with the best
cameraman in the world.


D22369  (D 22369)

Aug 28, 2004, 1:15 AM
Post #61 of 87 (1796 views)
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Re: [Vasskydive] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had so many times
cameraman riding on my back on exit. I had several time cameraman
hitting me in FF( one time it was so hard so I had to turn sideways other
wise he would brake my neck). I had half conscious cameraman spinning in
front of me so I had to push him away to open my parachute and he pulled the
same time it was just luck that we didn't collide.
I had cameraman falling inches from my nose on the opening
and a lot of openings at the same high.
Quote:

Jesus!!!......Sounds like you had camera men who quite simply "sucked" and had no business being in the sky with a tandem...... get someone who is good and these problems will simply go away.... Just cause they have a camera, doesnt make them qualified to shoot video's....

I can see the merits of handicams, but if all tandems started using them.....I would be out a job....Unsure

I CAN see the possibility of some great video's if both outside video's and the handicams were blended on the same jump....

Roy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 28, 2004, 10:30 AM
Post #62 of 87 (1757 views)
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Re: [Vasskydive] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Ok. If you have to chose between outside video and
>handycams what is more dangerous?

No question - jumping with a competent cameraman is safer than a handycam. He can see things you can't (premature container opening) can help you on exit (i.e. find the stuck seatbelt) can help you check the spot before exiting and can even on occasion save your life (as in the UK cameraman who dumped the reserve on the unconscious TM.)

>But doing tandem jump with cameraman I had so many times
>cameraman riding on my back on exit . . . . (and other stupid things)

No question there either - jumping with an _incompetent_ camerman is very dangerous.

>My point is that I feel much safer to jump with handycam than with
> the best cameraman in the world.

When I did tandems with competent people I knew (Steve Barker, Dave Peterson, Joe Mama) I was safer than when jumping by myself - no matter what sort of camera I had. I did a few jumps with a chestmount, and that didn't seem to affect my safety either way.


linestretch  (D 21060)

Aug 29, 2004, 7:04 AM
Post #63 of 87 (1713 views)
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Re: [D22369] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Jesus!!!......Sounds like you had camera men who quite simply "sucked" and had no business being in the sky with a tandem...... get someone who is good and these problems will simply go away.... Just cause they have a camera, doesnt make them qualified to shoot video's....

I think this guy has like 10,000+ tandems. After doing that many, you are gonna see some bad shit, and end up with a wide variety of camera flyers.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 29, 2004, 8:09 AM
Post #64 of 87 (1703 views)
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

This reminds me of a conversation between our senior outside videographer and a part-time videographer.
The part-timer was feeling threatened because I was "specing" tandem videos with my hand-cam. He was afraid that I would steal from his rice bowl.
Our senior videographer replied: "I am not worried because I know that my outside video is better than the best hand-cam."
The moral of the story is: if an outside videographer feels threatened by hand-cam, then he needs to improve his skills.

P.S. I have sold plenty of hand-cam videos on weekdays - when no outside videographer was available - and few on weekends: when we had plenty of outside videographers. Hand-cam fills a market niche when we are short of outside videographers.


linestretch  (D 21060)

Aug 29, 2004, 8:30 PM
Post #65 of 87 (1667 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The moral of the story is: if an outside videographer feels threatened by hand-cam, then he needs to improve his skills.

very well put.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Aug 30, 2004, 5:43 AM
Post #66 of 87 (1640 views)
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The moral of the story is: if an outside videographer feels threatened by hand-cam, then he needs to improve his skills.

very well put.
But not necessarily true
Some Dzs encourage Handycam, and charge the same price as outside video. The TM gets a little more BUT the DZO gets a LOT more.

As to the two being used in conjunction with each other I have seen some Excellent footage done with both combined.Smile


skydiverton  (D 123456789)

Aug 30, 2004, 6:27 AM
Post #67 of 87 (1636 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a tandemmaster. Not a videoman.
People pay me to bring them back to earth safely.

If I want to make nice video's I will jump with a videohelmet.

I will not like it when I will be forced to jump with a handycam. Because I don't want to deal with all that video-editing and bad footage shit.

Let me handle the passenger and someone else the videostuff.

In case I have doubts about the videopersons skills I will not jump with him. I do not have to jump for a living. For me it's a sideline activity.

Remember: All tandempassengers have one objective: To kill you !


(This post was edited by skydiverton on Aug 30, 2004, 6:30 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 31, 2004, 9:04 AM
Post #68 of 87 (1572 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
The moral of the story is: if an outside videographer feels threatened by hand-cam, then he needs to improve his skills.

very well put.
But not necessarily true
Some Dzs encourage Handycam, and charge the same price as outside video. The TM gets a little more BUT the DZO gets a LOT more.

As to the two being used in conjunction with each other I have seen some Excellent footage done with both combined.Smile

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Pitt Meadows charges CAN$90 for outside video and $55 for hand-cam. The price difference ($35) is slightly more than the cost of a jump ticket ($34).

I shared hand-cam footage with an outside videographer when Shaw cable TV did a jump with us. Shaw did not have the courtesy to send us a copy of their final product, so I never saw how they mixed it. However, several students have mentioned that they saw me on Shaw cable TV.
Wonder if my make-up was smudged????
Hah!
Hah!


beezyshaw  (A 3393)

Aug 31, 2004, 11:34 AM
Post #69 of 87 (1551 views)
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Re: [tombuch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been skydiving for 33 years, and I think I know by now what is safe and what is not. I've been shooting hand-cam video (with a mount made by Rob and a Sony IP5) for a little over two years. THERE IS NO COMPROMISE IN SAFETY. PERIOD! You can "what if this happens" or "what if that happens" all you like, but it works great, is totally safe for me to do, doesn't interfere with the skydive WHATSOEVER, and the students absolutely love the results. And it is their 50 bucks, so say what you will about quality compared to conventional video, but I'm here to tell you they actually like it better. Why? Because the entire skydive is on video, so they are a star for 6 minutes instead of 1. We have several students come to make a second tandem solely for the purpose of getting the hand-cam video like their buddy did. When they get home and compare, they all like the hand-cam better because the whole canopy ride is captured. So enough of the speculation about safety; NOT AN ISSUE. And say what you will about video quality, the proof is in my hundreds of hand cam jumps that make the students very happy with the finished product.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 2, 2004, 8:12 AM
Post #70 of 87 (1489 views)
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Re: [tombuch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tom,

What size is your hand?
What size is your camera?
What is your mailing address?

I will sew you a hand-mount for free, just so you can try it.

riggerrob


linestretch  (D 21060)

Sep 2, 2004, 8:19 AM
Post #71 of 87 (1492 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

hey wait, maybe I think it's unsafe now too.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Sep 3, 2004, 6:58 PM
Post #72 of 87 (1450 views)
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd like to see the results of a poll conducted with students/passengers.
Show them a tandem done with outside camera and then show then Hand Cam footage and then tell them they cost the same.
Let's see which one they prefer.
I have my preference, but that's because I know the difference.


linestretch  (D 21060)

Sep 4, 2004, 8:59 PM
Post #73 of 87 (1428 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have my preference, but that's because I know the difference.

you know which one you like.....it's all subjective. They both offer something the other one doesn't.


beezyshaw  (A 3393)

Sep 28, 2004, 10:56 AM
Post #74 of 87 (1352 views)
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

If anyone is interested in at least seeing a sample of what the hand-cam captures on a tandem skydive, here is a short clip I've uploaded...go to www.skydivingmovies.com, then the dropzone.com category, and the name of the clip is "tandemhandcam.mov"


(This post was edited by beezyshaw on Sep 28, 2004, 2:43 PM)


DanG  (D 22351)

Sep 28, 2004, 9:56 PM
Post #75 of 87 (1311 views)
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Re: [beezyshaw] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
they are a star for 6 minutes instead of 1

So I guess that means no handle checks, and flying the canopy in half brakes at all times in order to keep the camera on level with the student's face?

Oh, and my video subjects are stars for 6+ minutes because I include pre-jump footage, in-plane footage, and a post-jump interview.

If you are doing handle checks and truly flying your canopy (including full flight in preparation for landing) then the student is out of frame for significant parts of the video. When I shoot tandem video, the student is in frame the whole time, and I can get shots from a variety of angles, not just one. Are you also doing ground footage, in plane footage, and after-landing footage? Sounds like a lot to ask of a busy tandem instructor. I would bet that the video these students are getting is skydive only, from one angle only, with breaks in the coverage during landing and freefall.

Doesn't sound so great to me.

Of course I will be dismissed as a videographer who is afraid of losing his job. Bullshit. I don't feel threatened by the hand-cam, I just think the student's safety is being compromised for $$$ and they are getting an inferior product in the end.

- Dan G


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 29, 2004, 8:17 AM
Post #76 of 87 (1095 views)
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Re: [DanG] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sunday I did 9 tandems and sold 5 handy-cam videos. A sixth student said that she was returning on Wednesday (pay day) to buy her video.

Doubled my pay for the day!

It was easier for me to draw patterns, learn how to sew handy-cam mounts, teach myself how to film them and learn to use our quirky analog editing suite than it was to ask my tight-fisted DZO for a raise.
So until DZOs start paying better, I will continue to keep my eye open for new scams (i.e. handy-cam) that pay better.


pilotdave  (D License)

Sep 29, 2004, 10:24 AM
Post #77 of 87 (1085 views)
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Re: [beezyshaw] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Direct link...

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/...ion=file&id=1716

Dave


clint  (D 20790)

Nov 17, 2004, 8:51 AM
Post #78 of 87 (1019 views)
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Re: [DanG] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

If a tandem master just shoots the free fall then I would fire him. He's getting paid to do video and the tandem!

TM's have seen how the video person does it and they would learn from them. If not then they won't be doing video.

It's up to the DZO!


dorbie

Nov 17, 2004, 5:40 PM
Post #79 of 87 (978 views)
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Re: [DanG] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
they are a star for 6 minutes instead of 1

So I guess that means no handle checks, and flying the canopy in half brakes at all times in order to keep the camera on level with the student's face?

Oh, and my video subjects are stars for 6+ minutes because I include pre-jump footage, in-plane footage, and a post-jump interview.

If you are doing handle checks and truly flying your canopy (including full flight in preparation for landing) then the student is out of frame for significant parts of the video. When I shoot tandem video, the student is in frame the whole time, and I can get shots from a variety of angles, not just one. Are you also doing ground footage, in plane footage, and after-landing footage? Sounds like a lot to ask of a busy tandem instructor. I would bet that the video these students are getting is skydive only, from one angle only, with breaks in the coverage during landing and freefall.

Doesn't sound so great to me.

Of course I will be dismissed as a videographer who is afraid of losing his job. Bullshit. I don't feel threatened by the hand-cam, I just think the student's safety is being compromised for $$$ and they are getting an inferior product in the end.

- Dan G

But you miss the entire canopy flight down except the landing as a videographer, no matter what the TM does. Watch that video and tell me the section immediately after the canopy deployment didn't beat those post jump interviews. That was pretty darned awesome IMHO. I wouldnt' call it inferior, just different.

Seems to be swings & roundabouts. You're definitely going to miss some great stuff with either approach. Maybe it's time to make a "deluxe" video package actually mean something and do both with some real editing.


thegman  (A 40092)

Nov 17, 2004, 7:35 PM
Post #80 of 87 (961 views)
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well i'd have to say that I think it is a bad idea. first of all the video probably wouldn't be as good because you wouldn't get all of the angles. But most importantly the tandem master is already taking on the responsibility of 2 lives. His own and also the new jumper. It just doesn't sound like a good Idea when you could easily have a camera flyer shoot video with much less risk involved.
In reply to:


dropzonefool

Nov 17, 2004, 11:03 PM
Post #81 of 87 (945 views)
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Re: [clint] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the way to do this is to use the video from the T-I camera to supplement the original way of shooting video. You know edit both the cameras into one video, I bet the T-I get more of the really important issues like an interview with the passenger after opening, but fails in the landing catagory, and so onWink


skydiverjerry  (D 9092)

Nov 18, 2004, 1:42 AM
Post #82 of 87 (939 views)
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Re: [dropzonefool] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

this debate has been going on for a while now, as a tandemmaster and a camera man i can see both sides of the argument.

as a tandem master who has to do handy cam sometimes i dont like it, i dont like having to bring in another element into the skydive, but the dzo asks us to do it so i will use a handycam, but!
first is safty so i will do my handle checks! and i will pull left with the handy on and its then a simple job to edit that out. ps i pull left or right but like to make a point somtimes! childish sure but if i have a mal with the handy on i need to know that i can do it.

as a camera man (dont get to do so much of that these days) i agrea that the footage i get is way better than handy cam footage (just my oppinion) and by selling a cd full of photo,s i earn a little extra cash.

blue skies


Liemberg  (Student)

Nov 18, 2004, 4:08 AM
Post #83 of 87 (930 views)
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Re: [thegman] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
first of all the video probably wouldn't be as good because you wouldn't get all of the angles.

You get different angles but that in itself doesn't make worthless video. Besides you have to remember that you can film a BIG portion of the jump (the canopy-ride) that a separate cameraflyer can't, because he's already 1000ft below you. i have attached 2 stills from video's and especially the one named 'bulletcam2' shows this very well...
(Would even be better if I really knew what I was doing when reducing pixel size for uploads... Crazy)
Quote:
But most importantly the tandem master is already taking on the responsibility of 2 lives. His own and also the new jumper.
I must say that this aspect was of great concern to me and although I played with the idea, I rejected the glove-with-the-camcorder since I want unrestricted use of BOTH hands during a tandemjump. (Should I say period? PERIOD!) Smile
However, with a bullet-cam (or lipstick-cam) underneath my altimeter and "the camcorderpart" elsewhere (in my case in a 'skiers bag' on the students belly) I get that; the bulletcam on my left hand doesn't hinder me anymore than the altimeter itself. All the connecting and switching on are done in the plane and can be incorporated in the hook-up sequence. You start hooking up 1000ft earlier and during editing 'throw more film away' but editing is done on the computer and videotape is reusable so there you go...
The advantages of the setup seem promising but we have made to few jumps so far to really be able to say where we'll end up with this.

In my profile you can see that besides being a tandeminstructor I'm also a DZO.

This might make me a bit biased... Smile
(C 182: 2 x tandem with video = $$$)
Attachments: bulletcam2.JPG (24.8 KB)
  bulletcam1.JPG (20.2 KB)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Sep 30, 2010, 4:02 PM
Post #84 of 87 (712 views)
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Re: Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

<* Bump *>

OK, 6 years down the road and I notice that we've (internationally) had one double fatal incident that (it was suggested) might have been complicated by a handi-cam and a recent posting of a cutaway that was captured beautifully by a TI who did not want to use his camera hand to sort out line twists.

I also notice that most of the Help Wanted ads on DiZzy.com looking for TI's require (or at least want) TI's to use HandiCams.

As a former (maybe future) TI, I am curious what the current thinking is on this issue.

Fire away... Laugh

JW


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 30, 2010, 4:58 PM
Post #85 of 87 (691 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

>As a former (maybe future) TI, I am curious what the current thinking is
>on this issue.

It's been demonstrated that it is indeed a distraction, and has been a factor in a few incidents and one fatality.

It also makes money for the DZ, so safety issues will take a back seat unless things get really bad.


FFAddict  (D 1083)

Oct 3, 2010, 8:22 PM
Post #86 of 87 (583 views)
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Re: [billvon] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

The risk in doing handcam is just like doing your tandem rating in the first place.
If you have the skill and experiance needed then getting a tandem rating is not an unmanagable risk. Likewise if you have the skill and experience needed doing handcam is not an unmanagable risk.


Ron

Oct 4, 2010, 9:06 AM
Post #87 of 87 (549 views)
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Re: [billvon] Tandem Masters shooting own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's been demonstrated that it is indeed a distraction, and has been a factor in a few incidents and one fatality.

Can link to the Fatality or give me some details that would help with the search? I tried to find the fatality and failed.



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