Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Skydiving is risky but safe

 

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Poll: Skydiving is risky but safe
Yes 143 / 38%
No, it is not risky 19 / 5%
No, it is not safe 130 / 35%
No, if it is risky it is not safe 80 / 22%
372 total votes
 
NewGuy2005  (A 50256)

Jun 26, 2009, 9:41 PM
Post #126 of 207 (1165 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

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If I look through 2007, I see that I don't fly a wingsuit, I don't do CRW, I don't swoop, I have an AAD and an RSL, I'm in great health...

Yeah, but that was 2007. This is 2009.


pontiacgtp00  (F 111)

Jun 26, 2009, 10:21 PM
Post #127 of 207 (1160 views)
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Re: [pkasdorf] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm curious...can I have some example reports of those who did EVERYTHING right...but still died. Luck doesn't exist, everything in this universe can be explained.


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 26, 2009, 11:03 PM
Post #128 of 207 (1152 views)
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Re: [NewGuy2005] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
If I look through 2007, I see that I don't fly a wingsuit, I don't do CRW, I don't swoop, I have an AAD and an RSL, I'm in great health...

Yeah, but that was 2007. This is 2009.

And your point? Or are you just chiming in to chime in?


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 26, 2009, 11:08 PM
Post #129 of 207 (1149 views)
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Re: [pontiacgtp00] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm curious...can I have some example reports of those who did EVERYTHING right...but still died. Luck doesn't exist, everything in this universe can be explained.

Yeah, I was going to go there, but decided not to; you''re totally right.

If the primary objective of skydiving is to avoid death, and you do EVERYTHING right to fulfill that objective, then you will avoid death.

I'm content with agreeing that if you do everything right that one is able to realistically to control, you minimize your risk to a negligible value.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jun 27, 2009, 12:41 AM
Post #130 of 207 (1141 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If the primary objective of skydiving is to avoid death, and you do EVERYTHING right to fulfill that objective, then you will avoid death.

I'm content with agreeing that if you do everything right that one is able to realistically to control, you minimize your risk to a negligible value.

Kevin Keenan's comment is right: if you really believe that, you're a fool.

I'm outta here. I'm done watching you argue that the world is flat.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 27, 2009, 1:28 PM
Post #131 of 207 (1116 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

>If the primary objective of skydiving is to avoid death, and you do
>EVERYTHING right to fulfill that objective, then you will avoid death.

No, you won't.

Bob Holler was one of the safer skydivers I knew. Someone ran into him from above and killed him. Roger Nelson had something similar happen to him. Lupe Gonzales did everything right on a bigway and had a cameraman hit him from above during deployment. He lost his leg; the cameraman died. James Layne was a safe skydiver and a rising star in 4-way; he died when the plane he was flying in crashed. Shannon Embry was a skydiver who died during a hard (but not unusual) opening; she had a connective tissue disease that no one knew about. A few people have died of strokes or heart attacks while in freefall.

You can reduce the chances of dying but you can't eliminate them.

>I'm content with agreeing that if you do everything right that one is
>able to realistically to control, you minimize your risk to a negligible
>value.

Based on the half dozen skydivers I know who died skydiving through no fault of their own I'd have to disagree.


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 27, 2009, 5:36 PM
Post #132 of 207 (1099 views)
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Re: [billvon] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lupe Gonzales did everything right on a bigway and had a cameraman hit him from above during deployment. He lost his leg; the cameraman died.
In reply to:

Not sure what the other circumstances were surrounding the other fatalities where someone hit them from above. In regards to this one...it's called back tracking or at the least a barrel roll before deployment. That would be doing everything right. What is keeping belly RW peeps from doing the same on bigways?


Booster_MPS  (C 36331)

Jun 27, 2009, 6:16 PM
Post #133 of 207 (1088 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Lupe Gonzales did everything right on a bigway and had a cameraman hit him from above during deployment. He lost his leg; the cameraman died.
In reply to:

Not sure what the other circumstances were surrounding the other fatalities where someone hit them from above. In regards to this one...it's called back tracking or at the least a barrel roll before deployment. That would be doing everything right. What is keeping belly RW peeps from doing the same on bigways?

I am sure seasoned big way skydivers will step in quickly but I will advise that anything other than tracking away on your belly from a skydive, especially a big way, is never advised. You track for your life on a big way, period, and rolling on your back or any other shenanigans can kill you and others. If you told me you were going to roll on your back even in a 4/8 way, I would think that would show poor judgment.


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 27, 2009, 7:59 PM
Post #134 of 207 (1075 views)
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Re: [Booster_MPS] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Lupe Gonzales did everything right on a bigway and had a cameraman hit him from above during deployment. He lost his leg; the cameraman died.
In reply to:

Not sure what the other circumstances were surrounding the other fatalities where someone hit them from above. In regards to this one...it's called back tracking or at the least a barrel roll before deployment. That would be doing everything right. What is keeping belly RW peeps from doing the same on bigways?

I am sure seasoned big way skydivers will step in quickly but I will advise that anything other than tracking away on your belly from a skydive, especially a big way, is never advised. You track for your life on a big way, period, and rolling on your back or any other shenanigans can kill you and others. If you told me you were going to roll on your back even in a 4/8 way, I would think that would show poor judgment.

For what ever reason belly peeps don't leave their belly's fair enough. On freefly jumps, its expected. At least a barrel roll then would have saved your friend.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 27, 2009, 10:24 PM
Post #135 of 207 (1058 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

>At least a barrel roll then would have saved your friend.

No, it would have just gotten him killed faster. Time you take barrel rolling is time you don't take getting clear of the base. Indeed, barrel roll a few times on a serious bigway attempt, and you will be sent home to help keep the other jumpers alive.

Of course, do enough stupid shit and you'll get banned from all RW - which is one of the ways to be kept safe from dying while doing RW. So it may well save you in the long run.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 28, 2009, 10:01 AM
Post #136 of 207 (1044 views)
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Re: [billvon] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

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Of course, do enough stupid shit and you'll get banned from all RW - which is one of the ways to be kept safe from dying while doing RW. So it may well save you in the long run.
My most enjoyable jumps are usually still doing 4 way with friends. Big enough to do some great flying, small enough to have low pressure breakoffs, with no one low and out. Chance of collision is greatly reduced.

Thanks for the comments of break off barrel rolls. Definitely not the way to do it.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jun 28, 2009, 1:53 PM
Post #137 of 207 (1031 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

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Thanks for the comments of break off barrel rolls. Definitely not the way to do it.

...which is why I generally avoid jumps where the freefly-only guys insist that people barrel-roll before they dump (or intend to do it themselves). I won't do it, and I don't want other people on my jump doing it anywhere near me.


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 28, 2009, 1:55 PM
Post #138 of 207 (1027 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
Thanks for the comments of break off barrel rolls. Definitely not the way to do it.

...which is why I generally avoid jumps where the freefly-only guys insist that people barrel-roll before they dump (or intend to do it themselves). I won't do it, and I don't want other people on my jump doing it anywhere near me.

Why?


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 28, 2009, 1:56 PM
Post #139 of 207 (1025 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

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Thanks for the comments of break off barrel rolls. Definitely not the way to do it.

Why?


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 28, 2009, 2:04 PM
Post #140 of 207 (1020 views)
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Re: [billvon] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

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Time you take barrel rolling is time you don't take getting clear of the base. Indeed, barrel roll a few times on a serious bigway attempt, and you will be sent home to help keep the other jumpers alive.

1. Why would it matter if you are tracking until deployment altitude and then doing a barrel roll right before pitching?

2. If I was on a bigway RW dive, I would turn 180, track on my belly for a few seconds and then turn to my back and continue tracking to make sure the air remained clear above me. I bet you $1000 I keep up with you or out track you on my back.

**There is no way in hell I'm going to waveoff, deploy, and cross my fingers that there is no one above me and put his/her life and my life at risk. I do understadn though that some training would be needed for RW jumpers that haven't left their belly since '93.


(This post was edited by surfbum5412 on Jun 28, 2009, 2:11 PM)


Booster_MPS  (C 36331)

Jun 28, 2009, 2:18 PM
Post #141 of 207 (1013 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Time you take barrel rolling is time you don't take getting clear of the base. Indeed, barrel roll a few times on a serious bigway attempt, and you will be sent home to help keep the other jumpers alive.

1. Why would it matter if you are tracking until deployment altitude and then doing a barrel roll right before pitching?

2. If I was on a bigway RW dive, I would turn 180 track on my belly for a sec and then turn to my back to make sure the air remained clear above me. I bet you $1000 I could out track you on my back.

**There is no way in hell I'm going to waveoff, deploy, and cross my fingers that there is no one above me and put his/her life and my life at risk. I do understadn though that some training would be needed for RW jumpers that haven't left their belly since '93.

I can't emphasize enough that this is just not the way to do it. I have zero big way jumps, but I have been on 20 way + jumps and around many of these events. In a big way you track off in groups and the point is to stay with that group and fan out together. You must track well but the point is not to burn it away from your tracking group, you only fan out from the group at a pre-determined altitude and at that point, nobody should be above you if every did their job (and only people that can do their job are invited to these events)

Congrats, you can out track everybody on your back but that does not mean that you leave and RW group and go to your back while risking losing altitude doing that. When I teach tracking, I emphasize that during a track you focus on 1. heading and 2. tracking flat. If you do those two things you are doing your job and keeping your friends safe. Oh and by the way, while you are being cool on your back, good luck seeing the person under canopy that you might be tracking towards.

Just don't do this.


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 28, 2009, 3:14 PM
Post #142 of 207 (1002 views)
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Re: [Booster_MPS] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
In reply to:
Time you take barrel rolling is time you don't take getting clear of the base. Indeed, barrel roll a few times on a serious bigway attempt, and you will be sent home to help keep the other jumpers alive.

1. Why would it matter if you are tracking until deployment altitude and then doing a barrel roll right before pitching?

2. If I was on a bigway RW dive, I would turn 180 track on my belly for a sec and then turn to my back to make sure the air remained clear above me. I bet you $1000 I could out track you on my back.

**There is no way in hell I'm going to waveoff, deploy, and cross my fingers that there is no one above me and put his/her life and my life at risk. I do understadn though that some training would be needed for RW jumpers that haven't left their belly since '93.

I can't emphasize enough that this is just not the way to do it. I have zero big way jumps, but I have been on 20 way + jumps and around many of these events. In a big way you track off in groups and the point is to stay with that group and fan out together. You must track well but the point is not to burn it away from your tracking group, you only fan out from the group at a pre-determined altitude and at that point, nobody should be above you if every did their job (and only people that can do their job are invited to these events)

Congrats, you can out track everybody on your back but that does not mean that you leave and RW group and go to your back while risking losing altitude doing that. When I teach tracking, I emphasize that during a track you focus on 1. heading and 2. tracking flat. If you do those two things you are doing your job and keeping your friends safe. Oh and by the way, while you are being cool on your back, good luck seeing the person under canopy that you might be tracking towards.

Just don't do this.

Ok, that makes sense about the groups leaving and then separating from those groups. So, really no one should be above you anyways. And a back track or barrel roll isn't needed.

One of the reasons bigway freefly jumps backtrack is so initially, people don't go from their head to their belly and endanger anyone above. But when tracking out, people continue on their backs. Why are things different between freeflyers and RW in that regard?


brettski74  (C 3197)

Jun 28, 2009, 7:43 PM
Post #143 of 207 (977 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. Why would it matter if you are tracking until deployment altitude and then doing a barrel roll right before pitching?

2. If I was on a bigway RW dive, I would turn 180, track on my belly for a few seconds and then turn to my back and continue tracking to make sure the air remained clear above me. I bet you $1000 I keep up with you or out track you on my back.

**There is no way in hell I'm going to waveoff, deploy, and cross my fingers that there is no one above me and put his/her life and my life at risk. I do understadn though that some training would be needed for RW jumpers that haven't left their belly since '93.

Why is it that you're so sure that above you is the only place you need to clear? I'm curious how you clear the air below and in front of you while back-tracking? That's where you're headed. I've had people on a 100-way track below and underneath me. If I was back-tracking, there's no way I would have known that there was someone underneath about to deploy into me. As it was, I could see them coming and adjust my trajectory accordingly to avoid the problem long before it happened.


brettski74  (C 3197)

Jun 28, 2009, 7:53 PM
Post #144 of 207 (975 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

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One of the reasons bigway freefly jumps backtrack is so initially, people don't go from their head to their belly and endanger anyone above. But when tracking out, people continue on their backs. Why are things different between freeflyers and RW in that regard?

Because we're already on our bellies. You are not.

Aside from that, the priority is to get everyone away from the centre of the formation far enough to find clear air for deployment. This is more easily achieved when everyone is tracking off and looking in the same general direction. I may not be able to see who's above me while tracking but they should be able to see me. If they were on their back while I'm on my belly, neither of us would see the other.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 28, 2009, 8:52 PM
Post #145 of 207 (965 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
2. If I was on a bigway RW dive, I would turn 180, track on my belly for a few seconds and then turn to my back and continue tracking to make sure the air remained clear above me.
Low man has right of way. How are you going to see him wave off and deploy if you're tracking on your back?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 28, 2009, 10:16 PM
Post #146 of 207 (953 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

>Why would it matter if you are tracking until deployment altitude and
>then doing a barrel roll right before pitching?

Then you are deploying below deployment altitude. Not a good idea.

>2. If I was on a bigway RW dive, I would turn 180, track on my belly for a
> few seconds and then turn to my back and continue tracking to make
>sure the air remained clear above me. I bet you $1000 I keep up with
>you or out track you on my back.

Could you stay with your tracking group without looking at them?

>There is no way in hell I'm going to waveoff, deploy, and cross my fingers
>that there is no one above me and put his/her life and my life at risk.

That's fine; not everyone is cut out to do bigways, and I'd never try to talk anyone into doing something they are not comfortable with.


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 30, 2009, 3:16 PM
Post #147 of 207 (910 views)
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Re: [billvon] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see there are just differences in how freeflyers do it and how belly flyers do it. Neither one is wrong, but I prefer the freeflyer breakoff because I am in control of maintaining clear airspace above me as is anyone below me.


happythoughts  (D License)

Jun 30, 2009, 3:25 PM
Post #148 of 207 (909 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can see there are just differences in how freeflyers do it and how belly flyers do it. Neither one is wrong, but I prefer the freeflyer breakoff because I am in control of maintaining clear airspace above me as is anyone below me.

Neither one is wrong?
How many 20+ way jumps are you basing this bigway breakoff opinion on?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 30, 2009, 5:55 PM
Post #149 of 207 (890 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

>Neither one is wrong, but I prefer the freeflyer breakoff because I am in
>control of maintaining clear airspace above me as is anyone below me.

No problem there. Both are indeed suitable for some types of jumps. Just be sure you're using the right one for the sort of jump you are doing.


crustySCSA69  (D 20862)

Jul 2, 2009, 12:02 AM
Post #150 of 207 (844 views)
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Re: [happythoughts] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I can see there are just differences in how freeflyers do it and how belly flyers do it. Neither one is wrong, but I prefer the freeflyer breakoff because I am in control of maintaining clear airspace above me as is anyone below me.

Neither one is wrong?
How many 20+ way jumps are you basing this bigway breakoff opinion on?

doesn't have to be a 20+ way ...
I hit a canopy below me on a 12 way (wicked funnel at break-off altitude... everyone guessed which way to go) .. i was in a full track, staring straight down and ahead ... nothing there at all ... suddenly, pilot chute coming at my face (I found the old tale of automatically going into a fetal ball when faced with imminent death is absolutely true ... which surprised the hell out of me)... toes clipped back of his newly opened canopy (toes tore hole in his canopy... couldn't have missed him by much) ... he HAD looked up before pulling ... I was staring straight down... all we can figure is crossing tracks...

point is ... if it can happen when you are actively LOOKING for it ... then it sure as hell can happen when you are on your back and not (probably more likely)

anyone doing barrel rolls on break-off is a cool. with-it ASSHOLE... just hope they don't kill someone else while doing it (if they are the only fatality.. we'll all give them a hardy HIM)


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