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Riggers - what won't you pack

 

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pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 24, 2003, 7:38 AM
Post #26 of 45 (1647 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a reflex, and I've met riggers that won't pack it. Everyone's got a different reason though. I had a brand new rigger pack it once. It was his first unsupervised reserve packjob. He did just fine (I had another rigger let me know if it looked right at the next repack). I've never packed a reserve. Is a reflex really that much harder than any other rig? I doubt it. What you'll pack and won't pack is up to each rigger. I'm not complaining. I just take issue with any FAA certified rigger that won't pack a reflex because they've HEARD they're hard to pack or whatever.

Other reasons I've heard are that they're dangerous either because the pop top will snag a line or because the catapult will cause half a billion different problems. One rigger wouldn't pack mine because he didn't think there was anyone to call for help if he had any questions.

I just believe most people that won't pack a reflex are misinformed.

edit: Let me put that another way. I tend to feel that riggers that WILL pack reflexes and racers are more well rounded. Riggers that won't, I tend to think of as not being confident in their rigging abilities. (Yeah, go ahead, yell at me!) Tongue

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Dec 24, 2003, 7:41 AM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 24, 2003, 8:55 AM
Post #27 of 45 (1624 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I just believe most people that won't pack a reflex are misinformed.

edit: Let me put that another way. I tend to feel that riggers that WILL pack reflexes and racers are more well rounded. Riggers that won't, I tend to think of as not being confident in their rigging abilities.

I won't pack Racers or Reflexs. Not because of difficulty (the Reflex is very easy to pack) or being un-able to, I have packed both, but because they are tightened from the outside.

I am giving Nightjumper to change my mind at Eloy about racers though.

Derek


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Dec 24, 2003, 9:02 AM
Post #28 of 45 (1622 views)
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Re: [sid] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I won't pack the shit of anyone that kept me waiting more than 2 weeks to get paid (you know who you are) and you're DEFINITELY never getting a "Sid rigs my shit" sticker!

OKAY OKAY!!!!! I'll pay up!!! I just wasn't comfortable with $55 AND the personal favors....
....can i still get a sticker?......Tongue
Swoop..(surrounded by 5 inches of snow Mad)


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 24, 2003, 9:34 AM
Post #29 of 45 (1609 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
...but because they are tightened from the outside.

Why's that bad?

Dave


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 24, 2003, 9:50 AM
Post #30 of 45 (1601 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why's that bad?

Here is the scenario I fear with Racers or Reflex's;

I pack it. The owner is jumping it and the closing loop losens (they do that) and the pop top starts loosening up. I'm not around so the jumper decides to tighten it themselves. They overtighten it, creating a very high pull force on the reserve handle. On their next jump, they have a malfunction, cutaway and can't pull the reserve. No Cypres, no RSL. They go in. The FAA investigates. My seal is on the reserve, my cert # and sig is on the card. They pull test the reserve and find a 50+ lb pull force. I'm in trouble.

Derek


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Dec 24, 2003, 10:02 AM
Post #31 of 45 (1602 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

They could be altered after leaving the shop leading to several problems:
a. making the rigger responsible for someone else tightening the loop past the 22lbs pull force.
b. makes the seal nearly meaningless
c. if you can tighten the loop anyone could loosen the loop mess w/ the reserve or reserve pilotchute and tighten it back up leaving the original seal in place.

Having said that, I've packed Racers but refused Reflex rigs. The instructions were confusing for the reflex and there's the catapult system.

Ken


brits17  (D 24752)

Dec 24, 2003, 2:18 PM
Post #32 of 45 (1565 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I STRONGLY prefer not to pack Racers, not because they're bad or anthing like that, but because they require more steps / closing is more complex... fortunately I know several other riggers that will pack Racers... one of which actually LIKES packing racers... well, he works for JumpShack, so I guess he has to say that.. TongueWink ... anyway, whenever I hear someone with Racer in hand say "re-pack", I quickly mention their names. OBTW... RiggerRob... the Racer may (or may not) be disappearing in BC, but there's a bunch around my home DZ here in SoCal.

Guess I'm one of the weirdos who likes packing Racers. I don't think they're more difficult, just different. Its the itty bitty Mirages (like my container) that frustrate me. Oh well, to each his own Smile


sid  (D 20135)

Dec 24, 2003, 6:03 PM
Post #33 of 45 (1543 views)
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Re: [brits17] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply Guess I'm one of the weirdos who likes packing Racers. I don't think they're more difficult, just different. Its the itty bitty Mirages (like my container) that frustrate me. Oh well, to each his own Smile
What Brit? You don't like doing the "Mirage Slide" as you chase that wedge shape across the floor with one knee on the pilot chute, all the while wishing you'd weighted it down or placed it against the wall? Oh wait...that was me.....

Happy Holidays to my favorite rigger Brit!!!!!!!!


NightJumper  (D License)

Dec 24, 2003, 9:00 PM
Post #34 of 45 (1524 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Here is the scenario I fear with Racers or Reflex's;

I pack it. The owner is jumping it and the closing loop losens (they do that) and the pop top starts loosening up. I'm not around so the jumper decides to tighten it themselves. They overtighten it, creating a very high pull force on the reserve handle. On their next jump, they have a malfunction, cutaway and can't pull the reserve. No Cypres, no RSL. They go in. The FAA investigates. My seal is on the reserve, my cert # and sig is on the card. They pull test the reserve and find a 50+ lb pull force. I'm in trouble.

Let's be simple and ask this question? In the 30+ years that Jump Shack has been in business and over 30 thousand rigs that have been made, how many times has the above scenario happened? Answer zero So for a safer faster reserve system the benefits clearly outweigh a scenario that has not happened in over 30 years.

And as previously stated, when you seal a rig you are certifying that at the time you sealed the rig it met all requirements. And if you properly recorded the pull force you would have the documentation to back that up. No rigger can guarantee the integrity of a rig once it leaves their control.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 25, 2003, 5:10 AM
Post #35 of 45 (1505 views)
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Re: [NightJumper] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Let's be simple and ask this question? In the 30+ years that Jump Shack has been in business and over 30 thousand rigs that have been made, how many times has the above scenario happened? Answer zero So for a safer faster reserve system the benefits clearly outweigh a scenario that has not happened in over 30 years.

I agree that it has never happened, as far as I know. I don't agree that an exposed pop top makes for the fastest reserve system.

Quote:
And as previously stated, when you seal a rig you are certifying that at the time you sealed the rig it met all requirements. And if you properly recorded the pull force you would have the documentation to back that up. No rigger can guarantee the integrity of a rig once it leaves their control.

It is a liability that I am not willing to accept. There is no requirement to "properly" record pull forces. I don't feel that is protection for the scenario I described. Just my opinion. As a rigger, I get to make that choice.

What I don't think is fair is to call a rigger that won't pack pop tops "not well rounded" or "lazy".

Derek


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 25, 2003, 7:29 AM
Post #36 of 45 (1494 views)
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Re: [sid] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

What Brit? You don't like doing the "Mirage Slide" as you chase that wedge shape across the floor with one knee on the pilot chute, all the while wishing you'd weighted it down or placed it against the wall? Oh wait...that was me.....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Or was it me chasing the Mirage across the floor?

Seriously, to prevent slippage, I start by packing on a carpet.
Secondly, I put my right knee on the reserve pin cover.
Finally I tie the pull-up cord to my over-the-shoulder strap so I am pushing against my self.
My left knee goes on the closing plate, etc .....

Did I mention that rigging is a full body contact sport?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 25, 2003, 7:46 AM
Post #37 of 45 (1490 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Let's be simple and ask this question? In the 30+ years that Jump Shack has been in business and over 30 thousand rigs that have been made, how many times has the above scenario happened? Answer zero So for a safer faster reserve system the benefits clearly outweigh a scenario that has not happened in over 30 years.

I agree that it has never happened, as far as I know. I don't agree that an exposed pop top makes for the fastest reserve system.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed.
Granted, the Racer pilotchute may be exposed, but the closing loops still have to slide past a dozen grommets and two Cypres cutters before the pilotchute can launch.
This is largely an academic argument as the incidence of reserve pilotchute hesitations on Racers - or any other popular sport rig - is ridiculously low.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Quote:
And as previously stated, when you seal a rig you are certifying that at the time you sealed the rig it met all requirements. And if you properly recorded the pull force you would have the documentation to back that up. No rigger can guarantee the integrity of a rig once it leaves their control.

It is a liability that I am not willing to accept. There is no requirement to "properly" record pull forces.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

CSPA requires riggers to write reserve ripcord pull force on both the packing data card and rigger's logbook every time they pack reserves.
Screw the FAA regulations as there is nothing preventing you from recording "extra" data when you repack reserves.
This fear of American lawyers drives riggers to some bizarre forms of paranoia, reference the cover story on a recent issue of NEWSWEEK magazine.
At some point riggers have to say "the rig was airworthy when it left my loft and I cannot be held responsible 121 later or after ANY tampering."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What I don't think is fair is to call a rigger that won't pack pop tops "not well rounded" or "lazy".

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"not well rounded!"
"Lazy!"

Clint Eastwood was right when he said: "A man has got to know his limitations."
On the other hand, my rigger apprentice is whining about whether she should have to pack Racers. I flatly refuse to write her a letter of recommendation until she can close a Racer reserve on her own.


Treejumps

Dec 25, 2003, 7:46 AM
Post #38 of 45 (1489 views)
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Re: [NightJumper] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

"So for a safer faster reserve system"

Nice marketing claim, but the buying public has spoken with is purchasing power. You work for jump shack

I don't think the racer or reflex is difficult to pack, in fact the reflex has got to be the easiest rig to close.


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on Dec 25, 2003, 10:31 AM)


webracer  (D 24550)

Dec 25, 2003, 8:28 AM
Post #39 of 45 (1489 views)
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Re: [Shivon] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty much anything that is not current or my own. I am a rigger for myself, and do a few friends (for free). Generally I'm maintaining my two or three rigs, and up to four others. I have packed a swift 5 cell in an old vector once, but that won't happen again.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 25, 2003, 9:25 AM
Post #40 of 45 (1480 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
CSPA requires riggers to write reserve ripcord pull force on both the packing data card and rigger's logbook every time they pack reserves.
Screw the FAA regulations as there is nothing preventing you from recording "extra" data when you repack reserves.
This fear of American lawyers drives riggers to some bizarre forms of paranoia, reference the cover story on a recent issue of NEWSWEEK magazine.
At some point riggers have to say "the rig was airworthy when it left my loft and I cannot be held responsible 121 later or after ANY tampering."

I'm not concerned with 121 days after I packed it and I'm not concerned with tampering. I can pack(and have packed) Reflex's and Racer's. The Reflex is easy and there are harder rigs than the Racer. I am concerned with someone accidently tightening the loop(s) too much. I don't feel recording the pull force is a defense so I don't pack them.

Quote:
there is nothing preventing you from recording "extra" data when you repack reserves.

I do record extra information, and I am considering recording pull forces that cannot be changed by a well-intentioned owner.

If Jump shack can show me a way to eliminate that risk, I will pack them.

To hint that a Racer or Reflex is outside my abilities or say that I am lazy because I won't pack them is mean and unfair.Unimpressed

Derek


NightJumper  (D License)

Dec 25, 2003, 11:22 AM
Post #41 of 45 (1464 views)
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Re: [Treejumps] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
"So for a safer faster reserve system"
Nice marketing claim, but the buying public has spoken with is purchasing power. You work for jump shack

Your right, the buying public has spoken and I guess that is why our sales doubled for the year by December 1st., thank you for the complement.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 30, 2004, 8:52 AM
Post #42 of 45 (1168 views)
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Re: [NightJumper] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

I won't repack reserves with acid mesh.
Yesterday a local jumper brought a closet queen into my loft. He only intends to wear it for water jumps.
We stretched it out and started inspecting the Pioneer K22 round reserve.
A drop of bromocreasal (sp?) on the pilot chute mesh stayed blue, but when applied to the steering vents quickly turned yellow!
Scary!
Our inspection concluded with me instructing him on how to wash the canopy.
Frankly, I wish all those round reserves affected by the acid mesh recall would quietly disappear.


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

May 30, 2004, 9:43 AM
Post #43 of 45 (1151 views)
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Re: [NightJumper] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
"So for a safer faster reserve system"
Nice marketing claim, but the buying public has spoken with is purchasing power. You work for jump shack

Your right, the buying public has spoken and I guess that is why our sales doubled for the year by December 1st., thank you for the complement.
Dude, while I respect your right to defend something you care about, as a representitve of your company, I'd expect a lot more diplomacy, tact and proper debating.

I am purchasing a new canopy this summer and the JumpShack Firebolt was one of three "finalist" under serious consideration. If your actions are indicative of Jumpshack as a whole; however, I think my search just narrowed down to two.

-Blind


masterrig  (D License)

May 30, 2004, 12:44 PM
Post #44 of 45 (1129 views)
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Re: [Shivon] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no problem with Racers or Reflex's. They are a bit of a challenge, but, what's wrong with an occasional challenge? If, it is TSO'd and I feel it is airworthy, I'll pack it. I do get (a tad) nervous about parachutes over 20-yrs. old. I'll pull-test and do what it takes to be assured that the parachute, harness-container is airworthy. If it fails the tests, it is a bit difficult to tell the owner. I do, 'fore-warn' them about the possibility of 'failure'. I do feel though, a 'life-span' or 'age limit' should be placed on parachutes, harness-containers. Other countries have them, why not us. I do agree with 'riggerrob' and wish the Securities would just 'go away'!

Chuck


(This post was edited by masterrig on May 30, 2004, 1:38 PM)


BigMark  (D 17505)

Oct 7, 2012, 8:30 PM
Post #45 of 45 (626 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] Riggers - what won't you pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
"So for a safer faster reserve system"
Nice marketing claim, but the buying public has spoken with is purchasing power. You work for jump shack

Your right, the buying public has spoken and I guess that is why our sales doubled for the year by December 1st., thank you for the complement.
Dude, while I respect your right to defend something you care about, as a representitve of your company, I'd expect a lot more diplomacy, tact and proper debating.

I am purchasing a new canopy this summer and the JumpShack Firebolt was one of three "finalist" under serious consideration. If your actions are indicative of Jumpshack as a whole; however, I think my search just narrowed down to two.

-Blind

What did you buy?


(This post was edited by BigMark on Oct 7, 2012, 8:31 PM)


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