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Jumping without a cypres

 

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kkeenan  (D 22164)

Oct 12, 2009, 6:40 AM
Post #126 of 155 (1339 views)
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Re: [robskydiv] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Look at it this way - Some of the most skilled pilots in the world, flying the most high-performance aircraft, sit in an ejection seat. Because shit happens, and the ground is totally unforgiving. Why not take advantage of any technological edge possible.

As far as a two-out, learn what to do and understand the variables and how to deal with them. It doesn't happen from being a LITTLE low. You can toss at 2500 all day and never have a problem.

Kevin K.


piisfish

Oct 12, 2009, 6:52 AM
Post #127 of 155 (1335 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

well... you jump under Swiss regulations. You should be big enough to take your decisions and know when you can jump or not.

I recommend jumping regularly with an AAD, preferrably a german one. But sometimes you have to jump with the ADD turned OFF (specially in our country). And we also have the possibility to jump without AAD, wether being under scheduled maintenance, or due to unscheduled failure.


virgin-burner

Oct 12, 2009, 7:58 AM
Post #128 of 155 (1299 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

thing is, i'm about to sell my rig, and the guy wants it WITH the cypres; now, i got a container coming, i need canopies to stuff in there, so money for a cypres is kinda out. original plan was to transfer cypres from old to new, money's sufficient (for now) for that, but adding another 1800.- kinda blows my budget. or i just hold skydiving off completely for the off-season, but that blows too..


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 12, 2009, 8:23 AM
Post #129 of 155 (1288 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Knock yourself out. Angelic




LaughLaughLaugh


JohanW  (D 86318)

Oct 12, 2009, 8:40 AM
Post #130 of 155 (1276 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Over here it's not a jump# requirement, but to jump without a cypres you must either have a C-licence, do a static-line round jump, or have a Vigil (I or II), argus, FXC12000, Sentinel MK2, Kap3, Heightfinder, EFA or Astra, the latter 9 of which must be turned on and function within the specs set by the manufacturer and the RDAA AND have approval of a licenced RDAA instructor.

But since you don't fall under Dutch rules and regulations, all I can say to you (not being hindered by knowledge of the Swiss rules) is:

Knock yourself out. Angelic

Edited to specify Vigil: I or II
The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve. Tongue

(I know of one case where this almost might have been applicable .. that is, static line, round main, square reserve, piggyback rig, no AAD, unlicensed jumper.)


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Oct 12, 2009, 9:24 AM
Post #131 of 155 (1244 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
thing is, i'm about to sell my rig, and the guy wants it WITH the cypres; now, i got a container coming, i need canopies to stuff in there, so money for a cypres is kinda out.

I had a friend who sold the Cypres from his rig to make some money (don't worry, this doesn't have a bad ending - he's still alive, as far as I know Wink). It did strike me as a shame that he should have to do that. It would have been different if he'd never had, or didn't want, an AAD - I think he just desperately needed the cash.

If it was me with an AAD-less rig, I'd try to raise the money to buy one sooner rather than later, but I wouldn't stop or limit my jumping in the meantime. But nobody can tell you whether it's acceptable for you to jump without an AAD - you have to weigh that up for yourself.

If it is just a short term cash flow problem, have you looked at the second-hand market? I'm sure some people must have upgraded to a Cypres 2 (for example) while their original model still has a couple of years of life. You might be able to pick up a nearly expired AAD for a fraction of the price of a new one.


virgin-burner

Oct 12, 2009, 9:39 AM
Post #132 of 155 (1233 views)
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Re: [MikeJD] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

havent looked in it just recently, but i dont think there are many cypres's around..

i think i just go without one for a couple months; it's just when i started, i really liked the idea of an AAD, and still do!


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Oct 12, 2009, 9:56 AM
Post #133 of 155 (1220 views)
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Re: [JohanW] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Edited to specify Vigil: I or II
The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve. Tongue

Well, yes; VB would have to talk to Willem.. but I was purely talking about AAD regulations, not about whether VB could use his own rig. Cool

Or did I misinterpret some obscure regulation?


virgin-burner

Oct 12, 2009, 10:00 AM
Post #134 of 155 (1219 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

to clear things up; i dont think i could jump in the netherlands with my gear as it is, let alone my future gear! Wink


piisfish

Oct 12, 2009, 10:13 AM
Post #135 of 155 (1208 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

there are better deals around... but I fully understand that the cost of an AAD can seem limitative.

if you don't plan to jump abroad in the next couple of months, sell it with the AAD. Contact riggers. They might be able to find a closet rig with a valid AAD inside.


virgin-burner

Oct 12, 2009, 11:44 AM
Post #136 of 155 (1186 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 12, 2009, 1:06 PM
Post #137 of 155 (1167 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>the time is six years later, do you think its acceptable, say for a jumper
>of my numbers, to jump without an AAD!?

Sure, as long as you are comfortable doing so.


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 12, 2009, 2:44 PM
Post #138 of 155 (1147 views)
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Re: [MikeJD] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I had a friend who sold the Cypres from his rig to make some money (don't worry, this doesn't have a bad ending - he's still alive, as far as I know

I took my Cypres out of my rig to put in my wife's rig. Her Cypres was due for an 8 year and we decided to sell it to a low time jumper for cheap.

That and I had a Cypres 1, non-speed, and chowing into the pond loaded around 2.7 had me worried about that device. Someday I might buy a Speed Cypre2, but for now I have things I would rather spend my money on.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 12, 2009, 4:21 PM
Post #139 of 155 (1119 views)
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Re: [robskydiv] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The only thing that bothers me is the two-out scenario if I pull a litle low.
Sure as hell beats the "nothing out" scenario if you don't pull at all.Wink

I made the first 2000 jumps without an AAD. I sure like having one now.Smile


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 12, 2009, 7:44 PM
Post #140 of 155 (1091 views)
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Re: [JohanW] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve.

And where did you pick up this piece of information?

http://vids.myspace.com/...amp;videoid=14291990

Sparky


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 12, 2009, 9:40 PM
Post #141 of 155 (1078 views)
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Re: [JohanW] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve. Tongue
Very untrue. I have owned and jumped a S/L piggy back with round parachutes.


tetra316  (D 26945)

Oct 12, 2009, 9:53 PM
Post #142 of 155 (1070 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As far as a two-out, learn what to do and understand the variables and how to deal with them. It doesn't happen from being a LITTLE low. You can toss at 2500 all day and never have a problem.

Kevin K.

For that matter you can exit at 2000 ft on a hop and pop all day and never have a problem. Gotta love the Pacific Northest.Wink


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Oct 12, 2009, 11:37 PM
Post #143 of 155 (1055 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve.

And where did you pick up this piece of information?

http://vids.myspace.com/...amp;videoid=14291990

Sparky

Within context, Johan is right:

Quote:
Basic safety regulations article 509

Special regulations regarding use of round main parachutes.

1) Rigs with a chest mounted reserve used by skydivers with at most a b-licence:
*must have a cross-connector (on the chest mounted reserve)
*do not have to have an AAD
2) The minimum exit height for SL jumps with round main parachutes is 2000 feet.
Hence, the SL-round cannot have a piggyback reserve if you want to jump it without an AAD, under Dutch regulations but must have a chest mounted reserve.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 13, 2009, 3:46 AM
Post #144 of 155 (1033 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

OK now I understand. If the rest of Dutch BSR's are written to the same level of confusion you guys must have a hell of a time just getting on the plane.Tongue

Sparky


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 13, 2009, 5:43 AM
Post #145 of 155 (1003 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
thing is, i'm about to sell my rig, and the guy wants it WITH the cypres;

How about just saying 'no'?

If everything else about the rig is a good fit for the buyer, the lack of a Cypres should be the last thing to kill the deal. Both the Cypres and the reserve are the easiest pieces to locate used as there are very few options. Rerserves just need to be sized correctly, and there is generally only one model of Cypres to fit a certain rig.

Main canopies bring up the issue of size and color (it matters to some people) and the harness/container has the most options, and as such is the hardest to locate a suitable used one.

Additionally, if a buyer is forced to buy any part of a rig new due to time or market constraints, the Cypres is least expensive component in a rig.

Discount the price of the rig to match the value of the Cypres according to the price calculator on the SSK website, and call it a day.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 13, 2009, 5:54 AM
Post #146 of 155 (996 views)
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Re: [Hazarrd] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Doesn't the most recent Cypres save that was posted in the Incident forum give most people enough of a reason to use an AAD?

Bump, to that point.

Yesterday, Oct 12, 2009, there were 2 separate fatalities. Both were high-speed main malfunctions (possibly totals or PC in tow), followed by a too-low reserve pull on one, and an apparent no reserve pull on the other. The Hawaii fatality was an experienced jumper and Navy SEAL whose rig did not have an AAD. The Quebec fatality was a jumper who had about 87 jumps, most of them within the past year. Whether he had an AAD has not yet been reported, but from the facts it's not unreasonable to suspect (pending confirmation) that he did not.

Back in the Day, an awful lot of fatalities were no-pulls or low-pulls. Then modern, reliable AADs (and audible altimeters) came onto the market and into common use (as well as higher average pull altitudes), and low-pull/no-pull fatalities greatly reduced. (Replaced, sadly, with a lot more under-canopy fatalities.)

From the looks of things, yesterday's two incidents appear to have been fatalities of the old-fashioned kind. I think it's reasonable to keep that in mind as the AAD debate goes on.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Oct 13, 2009, 5:56 AM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Oct 13, 2009, 11:14 AM
Post #147 of 155 (930 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
havent looked in it just recently, but i dont think there are many cypres's around..

i think i just go without one for a couple months; it's just when i started, i really liked the idea of an AAD, and still do!


There are at least 5 listed in the Classifieds section of this site. Also, when a friend needed one, he called SSK (USA rep for Airtek) and they sold him a used one.

I am sure either your buyer, or you, could get what you need on the used market.

While I believe in taking 100% responsibility for the safe execution of your dive, I also believe that there are external factors beyond your control that can be deadly. Taking 100% responsibility for the safety of the dive should include anticipating all that you can including outside items that could cause incapacitation.

Just my thoughts,
JW


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 13, 2009, 11:37 AM
Post #148 of 155 (915 views)
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Re: [tetra316] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

They moved oceans on us???
Shocked
LaughLaughLaugh


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 14, 2009, 8:43 AM
Post #149 of 155 (785 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The Hawaii fatality was an experienced jumper and Navy SEAL whose rig did not have an AAD. The Quebec fatality was a jumper who had about 87 jumps, most of them within the past year. Whether he had an AAD has not yet been reported

Correction of my earlier post. The Navy SEAL in Hawaii is also the person who had 87 jumps in the past year. The experience level of the Quebec jumper has not yet been reported. Apologies for the error.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 14, 2009, 12:09 PM
Post #150 of 155 (746 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, now we have the answer about the Quebec jumper's rig. His rig did have an AAD, but it was not turned on; so it might as well have not been there at all.

So now it's established that both of the October 12, 2009 fatalities were high-speed, container-closed main malfunctions, where neither rig had an activated AAD at the time of the jump, and where the presence of one might have interrupted the chain of events to make either incident, or both of them, survivable.

Someone else in the Hawaii incident thread has remarked, "it looks like the old fashioned way of going in clean is back". I surely hope that's not the case.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Oct 14, 2009, 12:20 PM)


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