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Jumping without a cypres

 

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Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:47 AM
Post #76 of 155 (892 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess where this is a Cypres (entitled) thread, that is fair. And in actuality, I have no argument with the Cypres being available, as a potentially life-saving device at all. In fact, I myself have one in my very own rig. Will I still jump without one however? Yes, I will, and have.

My comments regarding having a tangible respect for ones own actions, and their potential consequences, applies (again) instead to the event that lead up to (causing) the cypres fire in the first place!

Am I glad the Cypres was there? - YES
Am I glad that it actually WORKED too? - ABSOLUTELY!

However, and as we've even seen as clearly evidenced in several of these threads is the attitude of "let's just leave it at that". ...And THAT professor, is what I am saying is WRONG (a disservice I think is what my earlier word was). Do you disagree with that?

What if next time the automatic activation DEVICE fails?? ---Or is not turned on, or is not even there (for those that choose to jump without).

Taking away from the event KNOWLEDGE to potentially prevent this event's recurrance in the 1st place, in COMBINATION with understanding the reasonings behind one's own personal CHOICE to have an AAD (or not) is what I am striving for. ...Unreasonable?


jumper03  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:56 AM
Post #77 of 155 (887 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron asked me to share a PM I sent to him regarding this thread...

Hi Ron,
Well I can honestly say that after all your posts I now understand your side of the debate. And I do agree that hoping the cypres will save you is no match for doing your E. procedures. I will pull all handles availabe if able.

However, for the time being, if I don't have an AAD I won't jump. Maybe that'll change in a 1000 more jumps, I don't know.

Thanks for taking the time to post your side of the debate.

Steven


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 11:57 AM
Post #78 of 155 (885 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply
IMHO - I don't see why someone would do a poised exit on an emergency exit anyways. Get the f^&* out of the plane as fast as possible, i.e. dive out and down. I think that was the first mistake - doing a poised exit. I've gone over that scenario time and time again in my own head - if the pilot tells me to get the hell out of the plane, I'm diving out, not wasting any time. If she did that, she would've been fine.
Just as a note to this - if you practice head-high exits regularly (I've got 1500 CRW jumps) you can exit stable head high just as fast as people can dive out. I'm in a better position for deployment too - but like anything else - you can't do it fast unless you've practiced it. A couple of years ago we had an Otter with an engine problem and the pilot asked us to leave at about 1300 feet - I wouldn't particularly want to be diving out at that altitude...
W


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 12:12 PM
Post #79 of 155 (882 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't object to anything. Read what I typed.

LOLOLOL

Issues. Large Ones.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 12:13 PM
Post #80 of 155 (881 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

BTW - I HAVE a CYPRESS in my rig and wouldn't have it any other way. You are so quick to jump down someones throat though that you did miss my point obviously.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 12:15 PM
Post #81 of 155 (893 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm - high headed exit isn't a poised exit as it was described in the other thread. I do agree with you - you can get out quick, relative to the wind (just like you dogs know how).

Heck, now that you said that though, I may reconsider diving out below 2000 feet, becuase I hear what you are saying. I'm just not going to setup a poised exit cuz that takes time.

Thanks for the tip faulknerwn...


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Sep 17, 2003, 12:59 PM
Post #82 of 155 (879 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't like the Im safe I have a CYPRES attitude that some of the "CYPRES Gereration" have. They should learn to use their brains not a device to save them.

Again, I ask why is this different then a reserve. I'll even use your words: "They should use their brains (and pack their main properly) not a device (reserve parachute) to save them."

Is the only reason we use a reserve because the FAA requires us to? If it weren't for the FAR's, would you have the same feelings towards one?

Again, gear dependency is inherent in the sport. I do not understand criticising someone for accepting it.

_Am


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 1:15 PM
Post #83 of 155 (873 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

He isn't criticising anyone for using a Cypress - he is criticising people who put themselves in situations that they normally wouldn't because they have one. Plain and simple.

However, you do present a good argument, but imho, it doesn't hold water because of the fact that there are many many more factors in getting a good canopy above one's head after a skydive. There are many outside factors that can affect getting a good open canopy, especially nowadays with HP canopies.

I have to agree with Ron on this one - if someone's Cypress pops, most likely they did one or more things wrong to get themselves into that situation. The Cypress save we are all talking about today could've been prevented had the person had the proper amount of knowledge to deal with the emergency exit. I am grateful she shared her story, because I learned from it and will bet anyone, the same thing won't happen to me.

The one thing always taught in avalanche courses out by me is DO NOT EVER rely on any piece of equipment to get you home safely after a day in the backcountry. Only knowledge will reduce the risks as much as possible.

All Ron is saying is that people (not everyone, but certainly a few) take safety for granted in this sport when they have a Cypress on their backs and they shouldn't. People freak out when they forget their alti's, but with the proper knowledge and with practice, no one should need an alti of any type.

I never rely on the fact that I wear an avalanche beacon while in the backcountry to save me - 99 times out of a 100 if someone is locating my beacon, I put myself in a bad situation from the get go that I should've said no to. I never rely on the fact that I have a Cypress in my kit to save myself. Again, if it pops my reserve for me, 99 times out of a 100, I made one or more mistakes to get myself into that situation and I need to seriously sit my ass down and think things over before getting back on the next load.

I think we can all agree that a Cypress is a wonderful thing to have, sure there are good reasons for not having one, but for the majority of jumpers out there, its a great addition to a kit. But hearing people say things like, "I'll be fine I have a Cypress" is not good. They are substituting knowledge with luck of the draw and it will bite them in the ass at one point or another as it usually happens with avalanches.

My 1 cent...


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 2:26 PM
Post #84 of 155 (862 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
25 people that relied on their brains died in 1989 'cos they didn't pull in time. Good job someone invented
that "stupid" device.

And John if you pay attention you would see I like the device, but I don't like how people treat it.

How they use it to do more dangerous things insted of training and thinking safely...

But you argue every thing, so why should this be different?

Regardless of everything you believe about people mistreating the "stupid" device, people are staying alive now that would have died 15 years ago.

That is the bottom line.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Sep 17, 2003, 2:31 PM
Post #85 of 155 (860 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Regardless of everything you believe about people mistreating the "stupid" device, people are staying alive now that would have died 15 years ago. That is the bottom line.

And while we should question the person's ability to perform their emergency procedures, we shouldn't question their desire to use an AAD.


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 4:04 PM
Post #86 of 155 (842 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, I ask why is this different then a reserve. I'll even use your words: "They should use their brains (and pack their main properly) not a device (reserve parachute) to save them."

Is the only reason we use a reserve because the FAA requires us to? If it weren't for the FAR's, would you have the same feelings towards one?

Again, gear dependency is inherent in the sport. I do not understand criticising someone for accepting it.

Are you arguing just to argue?

It seems like it.

If a reserve is used without a CYPRES..YOU saved yourself. YOU were able to save yourself.

If a CYPRES saves you you did nothing. YOU DID NOTHNING to save yourself.

How hard is that to understand?

One way YOU saved your own life...The other you did nothing.

See the big difference?

One you did something...the other you did nothing.


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 4:12 PM
Post #87 of 155 (840 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Regardless of everything you believe about people mistreating the "stupid" device, people are staying alive now that would have died 15 years ago.

That is the bottom line.

Gee your right John, I guess we should all get AAD's for our mains as well. Then there would be no chance of us ever getting killed!

No John,for a guy so smart you missed the point way to much.

While I like AAD's I don't like the attitude that some people take with them...But since its clear you just like to argue...Im done with you, yet AGAIN and your arguing ways.

Its a shame. You could actually help insted of being pain in the ass all the time.

But I guess its just the way you are huh?


(This post was edited by Ron on Sep 17, 2003, 4:26 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 5:02 PM
Post #88 of 155 (826 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[Im done with you, yet AGAIN and your arguing ways.

Promises promises. How many times have you said you were done with a discussion, only to come back?

I find it disturbing that you consider dealing with an attitude you don't like to be so important that it leads you to badmouth a proven way of saving lives.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 5:19 PM
Post #89 of 155 (823 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>And while we should question the person's ability to perform their
> emergency procedures, we shouldn't question their desire to use an
> AAD.

A guy shows up on a DZ. He has no altimeters. He can't judge altitude; he just pulls when everyone else pulls. You question him on this. "Hey, that's why I have an AAD!" he says.

You honestly wouldn't question his use of the AAD? I would.


skysquiffy

Sep 17, 2003, 5:35 PM
Post #90 of 155 (819 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A guy shows up on a DZ. He has no altimeters. He can't judge altitude; he just pulls when everyone else pulls. You question him on this. "Hey, that's why I have an AAD!" he says.

You honestly wouldn't question his use of the AAD? I would.

Any possibility that he was being facetious?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 5:53 PM
Post #91 of 155 (814 views)
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Re: [skysquiffy] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>Any possibility that he was being facetious?

In my example, no.


pilotdave  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 6:27 PM
Post #92 of 155 (806 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

One dangerous idiot does not represent the majority of cypres users. I really don't like Ron's attitude. I would fully agree with him if I thought he was anywhere near right on the attitude most people have toward their cypreses. But I just don't see that. Yeah, he's a lot more experienced than I am, has seen a lot more people, and has a lot more info on the subject than I do. But from everything he writes, all I hear is "I'm a big macho guy that doesn't need to rely on anyone or anything else for my safety because I'm a great skydiver."

Ok, maybe for a small minority (or he'd argue a vast majority) of skydivers become so complacent due to the cypres that their emergency procedures are lacking. Are they really more likely to be killed than if they didn't have a cypres at all? More likely to have a cypres fire, that's for sure. But more likely to die? I seriously doubt it. So, as I think kallend has been pointing out, the cypres saves lives. I just can't see how anyone can argue it's a bad thing in general.

I've jumped a few times with my cypres off by mistake. I feel stupid when I realize it. I spent $1000 on that thing to save my life in the worst kind of emergency, and I turned it into a couple thousanths of a pound per square foot of wingloading. I've jumped with my visor open on my helmet twice. Felt pretty dumb for not checking all my gear before leaving the plane. But I've never found my chest strap open or misrouted, never forgotten to tighten my legstraps, never made any gigantic packing errors, etc. I know what's important for my survival. The fact that I have an AAD on my back HAS NO EFFECT on those things. I've had two pilot chutes in tow (neither ended in a reserve ride). When I realized something was wrong, my cypres sure as hell didn't cross my mind. I was thinking "I better get something above my head ASAP" (ok, that was after I was thinking "shit shit shit!!!!").

And I don't think my attitude toward my cypres is unusual. I simply don't see people skydiving more dangerously because they have cypreses. Again, maybe Ron has seen a lot of that. What I haven't heard from Ron is ANY evidence. He's got all the same stories as all the other old guys I've heard from. Give me a GOOD reason to lose my cypres. I'm waiting to hear "It'll make you a better skydiver." I don't believe that for a second, but even if it's true, I'd rather survive that one jump where I really need the cypres.

And Ron, you can come out of cypres debate retirement for one more... Tongue

Dave


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Sep 17, 2003, 7:27 PM
Post #93 of 155 (794 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A guy shows up on a DZ. He has no altimeters. He can't judge altitude; he just pulls when everyone else pulls. You question him on this. "Hey, that's why I have an AAD!" he says.

You honestly wouldn't question his use of the AAD? I would.

I don't know where you are trying to go with this. The example you sight sounds like an extreme case and this person is obviously not one of the safer skydivers around and likely has too much reliance on their AAD.

I agree that people need to jump with their AADs as if they weren't there. But there is a reason why these devices were created in the first place and that is to save lives. If one person starts having multiple AAD firings, then maybe there is a serious problem which needs to be addressed. It seems as if people sight extreme examples just to make their point. But for the vast majority of the AAD users, I doubt these extreme arguments have any merit.

Where is this debate going?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 7:50 PM
Post #94 of 155 (790 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>Ok, maybe for a small minority (or he'd argue a vast majority) of
> skydivers become so complacent due to the cypres that their
> emergency procedures are lacking. Are they really more likely to be
> killed than if they didn't have a cypres at all? More likely to have a
> cypres fire, that's for sure. But more likely to die? I seriously doubt
> it. So, as I think kallend has been pointing out, the cypres saves
> lives. I just can't see how anyone can argue it's a bad thing in
> general.

I agree. The saving of lives is good; the increased reliance on a mechanical device is bad. A jumper who relies on their cypres and uses one religiously, and participates in dangerous activities, is more likely to live than a jumper who does not use a cypres and participates in dangerous activities. Of course, a jumper who uses a cypres, does not rely on it, and also does _not_ participate in dangerous activities is the safest of all. Over the past 12 years or so I have seen the first category increase greatly and the last category decrease a similar amount.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 7:59 PM
Post #95 of 155 (787 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>I don't know where you are trying to go with this. The example you
> sight sounds like an extreme case and this person is obviously not
> one of the safer skydivers around and likely has too much reliance
> on their AAD.

So you WOULD question their desire to use an AAD to make jumping safe enough for them to do it. Just clearing that up.

>But for the vast majority of the AAD users, I doubt these extreme
>arguments have any merit.

There are three classes of AAD users.

The first jumps as if he has no backup in the form of an AAD; clearly no problem there.

The second jumps only because he has an AAD to back up his (questionable) ability to pull. Clearly a problem, and definitely a minority.

The third group uses a cypres and takes slightly greater chances than they would than if they did not have one. Perhaps it's to get on a 20-way before they've done a 12-way; perhaps it's a willingness to do a head-down with someone they haven't jumped with before. These people worry me, because I believe that there are a lot of them and very few of them accept that they do it. I don't worry that they will die so much as worry that they are simply depending way too much on a mechanical device.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Sep 17, 2003, 9:29 PM
Post #96 of 155 (775 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Are you arguing just to argue?

No, nor do I have a history of that. I'm arguing because you sound like an old fart who thinks that only people with "the right stuff(tm)" should be skydiving.

Quote:
If a reserve is used without a CYPRES..YOU saved yourself. YOU were able to save yourself.

If a CYPRES saves you you did nothing. YOU DID NOTHNING to save yourself.

In looking at this for three seconds, I can come up with 8 different scenarios which end with a cypres activation. In only one of them, was "doing nothing" a cause. If you really think that the only cause of a Cypres fire is "doing nothing", then I think you don't understand how it works.

Quote:
One way YOU saved your own life...The other you did nothing.
Or did everything you could, and couldn't get it done. This is the more likely case.

Quote:
See the big difference?
Not the slightest.

Granted that I've only been around here for 4 years, but I've never seen anybody have a Cypres fire because they did nothing. I've seen 4 fire for very good reasons. I've never seen anyone be non-chalant about a Cypres fire.

I'm not saying there never has been someone, but if in 4 years I've never seen a single one, there can't be that many of them, certainly not enough of them to warant a thread like this.

_Am


Deuce  (D 25597)

Sep 18, 2003, 12:13 AM
Post #97 of 155 (765 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

BIll, I agree completely with your argument.

I have Cypres's in both my rigs. I depend on them not at all. I will be supremely embarassed if they save me. And I willl buy beer.

I've had two reserve rides, neither has been proximity induced. My Cypres is for a f*ckup. Plain and simple. A Cypres fire is a mistake. So is a house fire. Insurance is a good thing.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Sep 18, 2003, 4:05 AM
Post #98 of 155 (759 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice post.

I'm with you 100%.

t


Ron

Sep 18, 2003, 4:12 AM
Post #99 of 155 (758 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But from everything he writes, all I hear is "I'm a
big macho guy that doesn't need to rely on anyone or anything else for my safety because I'm a great
skydiver."

You seem to missing the point...

If you skydive to survive which means not doing jumps that you have a chance of getting hurt or requiring any device thats not NEEDED to save you (CYPRES for going low, Audible to prevent you from going low RSL to prevent you from cutting away wil no reserve pull,ect)..... Then you are a safe skydiver.

Now ADD and CYPRES, helmet, Audible, and RSL (if you wish).
Thats safe. Just these cool toys don't make you safe, and never will. They are there to help you..But don't rely on them. They all fail.

And as for me being macho...I turned down the 300 way since I would not have done it if I didn't have a CYPRES, I turned down the 2 pt 120 way, I don't freefly, don't jump a wingsuit, Don't jump a pocket rocket canopy anymore...yeah this all screams machismo....The fact is I see the danger areas then AVOID them the best I can.

In reply to:
And I don't think my attitude toward my cypres is unusual. I simply don't see people skydiving more
dangerously because they have cypreses. Again, maybe Ron has seen a lot of that. What I haven't heard
from Ron is ANY evidence. He's got all the same stories as all the other old guys I've heard from.

Ya think we have the same stories because they have happend?
Or ya just think its the old farts club making up stories? BTW I'm 30.

In reply to:
Give me a
GOOD reason to lose my cypres.

Show me one post where I said they were bad? I do say not to rely on them, and that I don't like the attitude it seems to foster. But the device is a good one. I have one.


Ron

Sep 18, 2003, 4:23 AM
Post #100 of 155 (757 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No, nor do I have a history of that. I'm arguing because you sound like an old fart who thinks that only
people with "the right stuff(tm)" should be skydiving.

1. Im 30 (OK 31 next mth.)

2. I don't think people with "The Wrong Stuff" should be jumping...Thats different than "The Right Stuff". ""TRS" was the top pilots that got to go into space...Several thousand wanted to, but they didn't have "TRS". It does not mean the should not ever have flown again, but they were not going into space. The pilots with "TWS" never got an invite to try. People with "TWS" are dangerous, and they are out there.

In reply to:
In looking at this for three seconds, I can come up with 8 different scenarios which end with a cypres
activation. In only one of them, was "doing nothing" a cause. If you really think that the only cause of a
Cypres fire is "doing nothing", then I think you don't understand how it works.

Give em to me.

In reply to:
Or did everything you could, and couldn't get it done. This is the more likely case.

You asked the difference between a reserve ride and a CYPRES.

The difference is one you did it the other a box did...Thats the difference. Regaurdless of how much you "tried" you still did nothing.

In reply to:
Granted that I've only been around here for 4 years, but I've never seen anybody have a Cypres fire
because they did nothing. I've seen 4 fire for very good reasons.

List them..I bet we can find out the root cause in 5 seconds.

In reply to:
I'm not saying there never has been someone, but if in 4 years I've never seen a single one, there can't be
that many of them, certainly not enough of them to warant a thread like this.


If it didn't happen in the last 4 years or at a DZ that you were at I guess it never happened?


(This post was edited by Ron on Sep 18, 2003, 4:32 AM)


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