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Jumping without a cypres

 

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Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 6:37 AM
Post #51 of 155 (945 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, how many skydivers do you know that do not understand that if you do not pull, you do not survive?
Intimate knowledge or common sense?

They are out there...the CYPRES will save them. They KNOW it will. One has been saved twice that I personally know.

These are the people I have issues with...And Wendy said it just fine...don't do with a CYPRES a jump that you would not do without it. THATS Saftey, not buying a cool neat'o' toy.

And if you will not jump without a CYPRES, that is device dependency....I will freely admit I depend on my reserve to be there *most* of the time.

First people need to admit they are dependent...Then they need to look at why. Then they should take steps to reduce that dependency.

Scared you will get knocked out? Don't go on zoo loads. Learn about things like A/C can have low tails when at high power and climbing. Don't go on bigger loads than you would feel safe without the CYPRES. Try to avoid jumping freefly with people known to cork, or people of unkown or dubious skill levels.

Scared you will loose altitude awareness? Learn how to judge altitude by sight. Don't do Freefly jumps till you are comfertable with the basic life saving portion of skydiving.

Scared you will not be able to handle it when "it" hits the fan? Practice, practice, practice, Train, train, train your Emergency procedures. Do an intentional cutaway on a tersh rig. Get into the hanging harnes and drill, drill, drill.

These are safe, and show you are safe...Or that at least you are trying to be...

Just buying a CYPRES does not make you safe. I DO know people who think it does....It gives you a second chance to hug the people that are important in your life.

A CYPRES fire is a big deal...You screwed up badly and most likley should be dead. Unfortunatly some people don't think this way. Some see it just like a reserve ride (Which by the way I don't just think of it as "just a reserve ride").
And this number is growing, and will grow more since modern AAD's are much more reliable than ever before.

I think a CYPRES is a good thing, but the attitude that is growing about them is not.

Don't do things with them that you would not do without one.

And that is my last post on it.


(This post was edited by Ron on Sep 17, 2003, 6:39 AM)


Alambic

Sep 17, 2003, 7:02 AM
Post #52 of 155 (938 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

And that is my last post on it.

Will it be your very last? or will be a last like the 1524 times you said you were quitting the discussion? ;-)

Now reading over and over this discussion I understand your point of view, and I just noticed that the same reasoning of "would I do a jump with so many people if I hadn't a Cypres", is the same as "would I jump with this packing I just ended when they were yelling at me to get on the plane, if I hadn't a reserve"...
And it seems to me that all the skydivers I know have done inconsciently this type of bad reasoning one day or another. (being aware of it or not)...

Now where I can t understand your (or Bill's or others that have similar ones) reosoning, is on the link you're doing on this fact (people getting tolerant on their own safety relying on devices), and dependency... Can t you just admit that there may be different reasons to chose to always jump with AAD, and that there are good and bad reasons to do it... I think on this thread and other ones on the subject almost all the oposition you have had is on this statement "Every person that refuse to jump without Cypres is relying too much on it", while many agree on "Cypres isn t a good reason to lower your safety standards".

You say "never do a jump with Cypres you wouldn t do without Cypres"... And I say "I chose not to jump without Cypres, because Cypres exists, but I commit to never accept I jump I wouldn t have accepted if I had jumped in the pre-Cypres era"... you don t have to actually jump without the cypres to think like that...


jumper03  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 7:33 AM
Post #53 of 155 (929 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Ron,
I do hope that wasn't your last post because I'm getting a lot out of this discussion.

But I do have to ask the question now - why do you have a cypres in your rig? If you have absolute faith in your training, experience and abilities, why have it and deal with the hassle of battery replacement, service, etc. ?

Thanks,
Jump


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 7:59 AM
Post #54 of 155 (924 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally don't have a problem with jumping without a Cypress as stated, its just nice having one in case bad things happen to my head rendering me unconscious.

I wouldn't have a problem jumping if it was off, but luckily, I'm a freak in morning on my first gear check and check it three times upon arrival on the DZ.


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 8:51 AM
Post #55 of 155 (911 views)
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Re: [jumper03] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Ron,
I do hope that wasn't your last post because I'm getting a lot out of this discussion.

It does not look like anyone will let me.

In reply to:
But I do have to ask the question now - why do you have a cypres in your rig? If you have absolute faith in
your training, experience and abilities, why have it and deal with the hassle of battery replacement, service,
etc. ?

I only paid 600.00 bucks for it new. I bought it at the request of a very good friend of mine. (In fact he paid the other 600.00 for it).

It is a very good back up, and if you look at all of my posts my issue is not with the CYPRES, but rather the attitude it fosters.

I don't like to hear things like "It's OK, I have a CYPRES, so I can do it" Or "My CYPRES will save me".

And I don't like the fact that there are more and more people that buy one and think that it makes them safe.

Or that more and more people depend on them but pretend they don't.

I don't like how people will do things with them that they would not think of doing without one.

Back before the CYPRES was popular, we sat around and fiqured out the ways that we could get killed in this sport...We studied how others got hurt or killed to prevent it from happening to us.

Nowadays there are a large number of "Newbie" jumpers that show up, do AFF in a week, buy new color matched gear and they put more thought in the color of the pop top, than why they got an AAD or RSL.

Since it has been invented the CYPRES has saved several people...But most of these "Saves" are due to a skydiver really just screwing up, not being knocked out which is why most jumpers say they have them. They say that since its the "cool" reason to have one, or the reason they were told why others have them. Again not thinking about it, but just being a parrot and saying what they heard...

Anyone that has actually looked at the CYPRES saves page will see that very few were actually knocked out. Most were just simple fatal screwups.

Now Im glad that these people are not dead, but they really did screw up and need to look at why, not just replace the cutter and get on the next load.

Better yet, realize that they are dependant on them (The best way to do this is ask yourself if you would jump without one) and find out why you feel you need it. Then try to fix what it is that makes them feel dependent.

Even better, find out the hundreds of ways to get killed in this sport and don't do those jumps even if you have a CYPRES.

Looking back to the post that started this whole mess. Someone left a plane that has a low tail that was at max power and in a climbing configuration. Now I knew that this is risking a tail strike...Since it has happend many times before. This person didn't...Why? There was a fatality just two years ago due to this. How did they not know? And why were they the only person on a plane load to hit the tail?

The answer is that they never were told about it , or she never read about it. Now why is that?

The answer is the attitude that is being grown by a reliable AAD and the reports of the saves...You read this and think "Man it was lucky they had an AAD!" or "Thats why people should have an AAD!"

I read it and ask why she hit her head. Now I am glad she did have an AAD, but why did she hit her head in the first place?

See the difference in the thinking?

And then I get jumped for asking why she was the only one to hit her head and KNOCK HERSELF OUT insted of me just singing the praises of the magic black box.

The lession here is not to jump with an AAD, but to use your head to minimize the chances of needing to be saved by one.

Same thing with loss of altitude awareness. A guy says he went low and the first piece of advice he gets is "Get an audible"....I tell him to learn how to tell altitude with his eyes so he can jump without an altimeter, and learn that a new device is not the answer. "I didn't hear my Pro Track", "My Altimeter Broke" are not a good reasons to go low.

Why do I jump an AAD (Or even an Altimeter, Helmet, Audible)?

Simple, I can fuck up and die, you can fuck up and kill me. I'd rather not die, so I plan dives that are safe, THEN I try to jump with the saftey gear that I thought about before just strapping it on. I know both the good and bad of every piece of gear I use...Do you?

Ron


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 9:05 AM
Post #56 of 155 (905 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

"Nowadays there are a large number of "Newbie" jumpers that show up, do AFF in a week, buy new color matched gear and they put more thought in the color of the pop top, than why they got an AAD or RSL."

Sooooooooooooooooo true.

Very well put Ron - although, with my bad history of getting hit in the head, I honestly use that as my main argument for having a Cypress. I'm not very afraid of getting knocked out in freefall primarily because I plan my jumps with people I know most of the time (95% of the time in fact).

So true about altitude and going low as well. I find it funny when someone freaks out about not having an alti of any type, learn to use your eyes morons.

Relying on a Cypress is a bad move that will shorten one's life span. Relying on an avalanche beacon is quite similar. Rely on knowledge and awareness to keep yourselves safe in a given environment as mechanical shit fails. Eyes don't fail, senses do not fail, knowledge doesn't fail.

IMHO - I don't see why someone would do a poised exit on an emergency exit anyways. Get the f^&* out of the plane as fast as possible, i.e. dive out and down. I think that was the first mistake - doing a poised exit. I've gone over that scenario time and time again in my own head - if the pilot tells me to get the hell out of the plane, I'm diving out, not wasting any time. If she did that, she would've been fine.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 9:21 AM
Post #57 of 155 (899 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>So, how many skydivers do you know that do not understand that if
> you do not pull, you do not survive? Intimate knowledge or common
> sense?

I have met at least five so far. Two pointed out that they had cypreses, and thus if they did not pull they WOULD survive. I don't know why the third one didn't pull. She just gave up and waited for someone else to open a parachute for her. Good thing she had a cypres so she can continue jumping without fear of dying!


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 9:36 AM
Post #58 of 155 (893 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to jump out of airplanes period.

That last chick wouldn't know what was happening if someone held a gun to her head Crazy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 9:37 AM
Post #59 of 155 (891 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to jump out of airplanes period.

I agree, but nowadays they can just buy this cypres thing . . .


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 9:43 AM
Post #60 of 155 (889 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

HAH SlyLaugh

At a loss for words as you've summed things up nicely Bill LOLOLOL!!!


hookitt  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 10:20 AM
Post #61 of 155 (877 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
HAH SlyLaugh

At a loss for words as you've summed things up nicely Bill LOLOLOL!!!

You mean that's the end of the debate?


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 10:28 AM
Post #62 of 155 (870 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to jump out of airplanes period.

I agree, but nowadays they can just buy this cypres thing . . .

How do you describe the 25 people who died from no/low pull in the USA in 1989 (the good ol' pre-CYPRES days, when all skydivers accepted reponsibility for themselves).


wmw999  (D 6296)

Sep 17, 2003, 10:28 AM
Post #63 of 155 (870 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And if you will not jump without a CYPRES, that is device dependency

I've actually had my opinion changed in a different direction in a small way by this thread (well, this one or one of the other 17 simultaneous ones)

Mary posted that she will not jump without a Cypres for personal reasons -- mother of two kids who have already lost a parent. She's made an intellectual decision based on factors outside her control. That's an excellent reason. Really. And I doubt she's using it because she's not really convinced shit happens.

Wendy W.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 10:33 AM
Post #64 of 155 (864 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Looking back to the post that started this whole mess. Someone left a plane that has a low tail that was at max power and in a climbing configuration. Now I knew that this is risking a tail strike...Since it has happend many times before. This person didn't...Why? There was a fatality just two years ago due to this. How did they not know? And why were they the only person on a plane load to hit the tail?

The answer is that they never were told about it , or she never read about it. Now why is that?

Because she was saved by her Cypres (not a bad thing ...and I am NOT disparaging that, before anybody jumps on me!) ...and now as a result, that is ALL anybody wants to apparently talk about. Forget about learning (and maybe hopefully either her, or somebody else in the future maybe AVOIDING this scenario/potential incident altogether). Even bring it up, and get accused of being "critical" of the jumper for even being saved in the first place!! Crazy

Peolpe need to learn how to separate the 2. Being "critical" and examining the actions which led up to the event, are how we (and others) LEARN from it. Otherwise, this jumper (and others) would not be allowed to even have that OPPORTUNITY at all (oh -ooh ...don't say anything to her ...so, she was saved by her Cypres ---so long as she wasn't a danger to others -also arguable btw- who cares? I think was the paraphrase), which in reality would be the biggest DISSERVICE OF ALL IMHO.

Blue Skies all,
-Grant


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 10:35 AM
Post #65 of 155 (859 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>How do you describe the 25 people who died from no/low pull in the USA in 1989?

How would I describe them? They're still dead. Not pulling is less fatal (and less scary) nowadays.


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 10:47 AM
Post #66 of 155 (853 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

A real, tangible respect for what they are doing? Actually, that's precisely my point J.E.
No sir, I see plenty of jumpers out here today who in fact do NOT have that at all.

Some data from USPA:

Year Low/no pull fatalities USPA members
1989 25 18484
1999 2 35000+

Median no. of jumps of USPA members <250

25 people died in the USA in 1989 from low or no pull (USPA stats). Since this was before CYPRES we must conclude that they didn't fit your characterization above, so they DID have a real tangible respect for what they were doing. How then, do you explain their deaths?

At least 17500 USPA members in 1999 could be considered "newbies", corrupted by the evil CYPRES and having bad attitudes towards safety. How come only 2 fatalities from this undeserving device dependent bunch?


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:00 AM
Post #67 of 155 (846 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you are missing the point quite frankly. The point is not to become dependent on something that doesn't replace actions.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:08 AM
Post #68 of 155 (842 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
These are the people I have issues with...And Wendy said it just fine...don't do with a CYPRES a jump that you would not do without it. THATS Saftey, not buying a cool neat'o' toy.

Why is this any different then a reserve?

Why don't we jump base gear, because we shouldn't need our reserves if we learned to pack properly. Clearly, if we're depending on our reserves, we shouldn't be skydiving because we don't trust our pack jobs. Learn to pack and ditch your reserve!

I'll say it again, trust in our equipment is inherent in the sport. Criticising someone for it is meaningless and ludicrous.

_Am


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 11:08 AM
Post #69 of 155 (841 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At least 17500 USPA members in 1999 could be considered "newbies", corrupted by the evil CYPRES and
having bad attitudes towards safety. How come only 2 fatalities from this undeserving device dependent
bunch?

Simple the stupid little device saved them.


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 11:11 AM
Post #70 of 155 (838 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is this any different then a reserve?

Reserve you did something...
CYPRES you did nothing.

I don't like the Im safe I have a CYPRES attitude that some of the "CYPRES Gereration" have. They should learn to use their brains not a device to save them.

You want more info read my other posts

I am truely done here..


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:11 AM
Post #71 of 155 (841 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is this any different then a reserve?
Because a reserve is required by the FAA. An AAD is not.


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:11 AM
Post #72 of 155 (840 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think you are missing the point quite frankly. The point is not to become dependent on something that doesn't replace actions.

But if depending on the device instead of relying on actions saves a bunch of lives, why do you object so strongly? Do you think they DESERVE to die?


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:13 AM
Post #73 of 155 (839 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think you are missing the point quite frankly. The point is not to become dependent on something that doesn't replace actions.

Saving lives is missing the point? I think it is YOU that misses the point.

The people you despise are doing a better job of staying alive that the ones you admire.


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:16 AM
Post #74 of 155 (838 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Why is this any different then a reserve?

Reserve you did something...
CYPRES you did nothing.

I don't like the Im safe I have a CYPRES attitude that some of the "CYPRES Gereration" have. They should learn to use their brains not a device to save them.

You want more info read my other posts

I am truely done here..

25 people that relied on their brains died in 1989 'cos they didn't pull in time. Good job someone invented that "stupid" device.


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 11:22 AM
Post #75 of 155 (832 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
25 people that relied on their brains died in 1989 'cos they didn't pull in time. Good job someone invented
that "stupid" device.

And John if you pay attention you would see I like the device, but I don't like how people treat it.

How they use it to do more dangerous things insted of training and thinking safely...

But you argue every thing, so why should this be different?


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