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Jumping without a cypres

 

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CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Sep 15, 2003, 3:13 PM
Post #26 of 155 (1838 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're on jumprun, getting a final pin-check before exit. The person checking your pin(s) also has access to your Cypres window & notices it is OFF. "...Oops, your Cypres is not turned on!"

Are you staying with the plane? ---Or are you still making the jump?

I have made two jumps without my Cypres. The first time, I had a friend turn it off while at altitude because just before jump run I remembered that I had jumped it earlier in the day at a DZ 1400 feet higher than my home DZ (which would means that the Cypres could have fired during my canopy's snivel if I had pulled at my usual 3000 feet). And then a few weeks ago as I was getting on the first load of the day, I remembered that I had forgot to turn it on. And since my Cypres isn't all that accessible without loosening my hardness and I didn't want to hold up the load, I just kept my mouth shut and proceeded with my jump. So I am not one of those people who absolutely has to have a Cypres turned on in order to jump. But I just don't understand some of the people in this debate. It seems that they just like to claim that they are better skydivers because they don't need a cypres.

By the way, I like what Trent wrote in this thread. http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


(This post was edited by CanuckInUSA on Sep 15, 2003, 3:16 PM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 3:35 PM
Post #27 of 155 (1824 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
have made two jumps without my Cypres. The first time, I had a friend turn it off while at altitude because just before jump run I remembered that I had jumped it earlier in the day at a DZ 1400 feet higher than my home DZ

How long were you at the "new" dz before you went up for the jump? ...Doesn't the Cypres re-calibrate itself (unless manually over-ridden for LZ MSL differences from the take-off point) every few minutes? ---As long as it said "0" on the ground, at the CURRENT take-off point on inspection (assumed with your pre-boarding gear-check), why would you have a concern?

Glad to see that you are able to make a jump "without" one though! Wink

Quote:
But I just don't understand some of the people in this debate.

Neither do I, necessarily. Especially when taken into consideration OVER debating and potentially examining (what is getting ignored by most otherwise) the root cause to the incident (a tail-strike on an EMERGENCY BAIL OUT -or what SHOULD HAVE BEEN handled as such) that initiated all this anyway!

Quote:
By the way, I like what Trent wrote in this thread. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=658631;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

On this, for the most part we agree. It's the radical "militants" on either side of the debate, that say you either HAVE TO have one, or you SHOULDN'T; on something that has always been taught to me, that except for student status, is a personal comfort, and yes safety CONSIDERATION ..."CHOICE".


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Sep 15, 2003, 3:40 PM
Post #28 of 155 (1819 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's the radical "militants" on either side of the debate, that say you either HAVE TO have one, or you SHOULDN'T;

I haven't read every post, but I honestly don't see any radical militants who are saying we must jump with an AAD. Who are they?


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 3:55 PM
Post #29 of 155 (1812 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that he may be refering to some DZs that require an AAD to jump there.

That, I think, is too far. Yeah, its great to have one, but you can jump without one. I had about 400 jumps before I finally got a Cypres, although I did want one, just couldn't afford it. I am glad that I have one now, though, its just another layer of protection incase the unpredictable happens.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 4:15 PM
Post #30 of 155 (1805 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It seems that they just like to claim that they are better skydivers because they don't need a cypres.
I haven't seen anyone claiming they are better skydivers because they don't have or use an AAD. I do think those who don't think they need an AAD to skydive are more likely to know and accept the risks involved in skydiving than are some of those who won't jump without one.

Not to mix threads, but part of the reason I quit doing tandems was a comment made to me by one of my passengers. She said "I'm so glad you're here to take care of me." I guess I really am an old fart because to me that comment goes 100% against what I think skydiving is about. And so does the idea that any jumper needs to have an AAD on their rig to skydive safely.

Just for reference, I did 500+ jumps without an AAD or an RSL. My current rig has both installed on it. Not because I need them, but because I've considered the reasons for and against using them and decided for myself that having them there is a good thing. I also know and have accepted the risks that having them there puts on me. This doesn't make me a better skydiver than anyone else.

I'm not sure the two "sides" will ever agree on this one. Kinda like the rapid downsizing issue...


(This post was edited by skybytch on Sep 15, 2003, 4:16 PM)


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 6:16 PM
Post #31 of 155 (1781 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

TongueBill,
You have promoted this topic and beat it to death. AAD or not, it is up to the skydiver after he obtains his license to make the decision. You have stirred the brew and divided the camps with over 15 posts on this subject in the past few days.

AAD's are insurance. If you can afford it and want it, buy one. If you feel like "it will never happen to me", and if it does you can afford the results, do not buy one.

Your comparison to flight instruction is a real reach. Why don't you start a thread on risk taking. Then we can discuss real engine outs, real emergencies, real cut aways, real loss of altitude awareness. You know, real flying and real skydiving.

Remember the saying "Experience is something you gain, two seconds AFTER you needed it"? Tell us Bill, how do you prepare for it? Go out and create a real emergency situation?

Your post reminds me of an "old-school" skydivers saying. "If you can't convince them with the facts, baffle them with BS". I guess we can all consider ourselves "baffled" by that three page post.

Blues,

J.E.
ATP CFII-ASMEL BAFFLED


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 15, 2003, 6:40 PM
Post #32 of 155 (1775 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I have both soloed an airplane and jumped without an AAD.

I don't believe there is the slightest resemblance between the experiences.

I still remember my first solo vividly, many years after it happened, as one of the achievements in my life. I also well remember my first solo IFR flight in actual IMC.

I cannot recall anything much about my no-AAD jumps except the name of the guy who loaned me his rig and that it was 10-way practice.

I certainly do not believe that making jumps without an AAD made me a better or more confident skydiver in any way.


turnlow  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 6:44 PM
Post #33 of 155 (1773 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, I think that Bill makes an extremely valid point here about reliance on AADs. This is not a new concept nor one restricted to skydiving - in economics it's called Moral Hazard. Definitionally it means that people with insurance may take greater risks than they would do without it because they know they are protected. In reference to skydiving, it means that people will do riskier things with an AAD that they would not otherwise. Bill's point about jumping with one, but act like you don't have an AAD is a good point.

Personally, I don't see the logic in jumping without an AAD. I think of it akin people who did not like airbags or antilock brakes. While there is a small minority of people whose having an airbag is a bad idea, for that vast majority of people it saved lives.

I would not object to regulating the use of AADs nationwide (although I would not initiate or lead it). I have had a Cypress fire. Although I beat it with my reserve pull, I was glad to see that it would have saved my life if I had failed. I have also had someone that I jumped and worked with go in when he was knocked out and his Cypress was turned off.

_________________________________________________


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 7:29 PM
Post #34 of 155 (1760 views)
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Re: [turnlow] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileMr. Turnlow,

I will not ask you about your user name considering the thread we are on.Wink

Quote:
Definitionally it means that people with insurance may take greater risks than they would do without it because they know they are protected. In reference to skydiving, it means that people will do riskier things with an AAD that they would not otherwise

Assumption, be it economics, moral, or statistical. Theory, not fact. People do not drive in a dangerous manner, or create hazards conditions on the road around other drivers in order to "test" their ability to survive without insurance or an airbag. Otherwise, if they did, they soon will have their driving privileges taken away. If your theory were true to the majority of people, through economics we would be unable to afford insurance due to the increased cost of claims.

Quote:
Bill's point about jumping with one, but act like you don't have an AAD is a good point.

Agreed, and under that pretense all the other opinions could have been eliminated.

Quote:
Personally, I don't see the logic in jumping without an AAD. I think of it akin people who did not like airbags or antilock brakes. While there is a small minority of people whose having an airbag is a bad idea, for that vast majority of people it saved lives.

Bingo!

Quote:
have had a Cypress fire. Although I beat it with my reserve pull, I was glad to see that it would have saved my life if I had failed. I have also had someone that I jumped and worked with go in when he was knocked out and his Cypress was turned off.

Enough said.

Blues,

J.E.


petetheladd  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 8:29 PM
Post #35 of 155 (1744 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's another good article on device dependence with some real life examples of dependence run amok.

http://www.ranchskydive.com/safety/ke_article11.htm


Fast  (D 28237)

Sep 15, 2003, 8:58 PM
Post #36 of 155 (1734 views)
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Re: [petetheladd] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

As I read the first part of that article it sounded in my head like a Dennis Miller rant (nothing wrong with that, I think it was pretty cool). The whole article was well written I would say, and an intersting read for sure.


smiles  (D 41)

Sep 15, 2003, 9:57 PM
Post #37 of 155 (1724 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool..now I yank out my 1st. log book to look back---wow, I have so much to be proud of, Tongue this book should not be stashed away, it is priceless!

I found your post an excellent read, I agree with all you have written. I jump without a cypres today but have made decision to purchase one next year.

I was in shock after my 1st. tandem jump-(1987)
no huge smiles, no yelling ya-hoo or response of adrenaline rush. It took a few days to comprehend my experience and that experience came back to me a little at a time until "the whole picture" was embraced (can recall it to this day.) I returned to the d.z. 2 months later to take the static line progression. Training was like "in the army now." Reserve on belly, lg. army boots and hat, flying main round canopies and even a few round reserve rides.
I left the d.z. many times screaming "I give up"... But memories of freefall from my tandem jump always dragged me back.Smile

So- remarks in my log book jump:
1. s/l congrats. good jump
2. s/l another good jump
3. trcp1 work on exit, no pull
4. trcp2 good exit and pull
5. trcp3 excellent!
6. trcp4 great exit/arch s/l bag pulled jumper unstable.
7. trcp5 (no ground control) good exit/arch & pull- be more aware with your ground control.
8. trcp6 nice jump, great hesitation and ground control
9. trcp7 excellent!, promoted to solo
06 - 5 sec. delays
10 - 10 sec. delays
12 - 15 sec. delays (zbl, flat spin problems)
another 22 solo jumps logged---practise flying down the tube, packing, keeping good alt. awareness, tracking, style set, exit aircraft in any zzz way and get stable.
Then jump with instructor who observed style set and wave off, tracking. At this time I was cleared to make RW 2-way jumps..............

Hey, I always figured I was different than some, needed to be brought into this sport with baby steps and have resented it at times, but now I completely appreciate the training I received and confidence I built. I celebrated my first square reserve, and a 150 Triathlon main 2 yrs. ago. In the next year I will be purchasing a cypresCoolTongueCool, with 1000+ jumps under my belt. Over phorty but so appreciative to my training and confidence it built.CoolTongueSmile

SMilesWink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 15, 2003, 10:13 PM
Post #38 of 155 (1720 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>AAD or not, it is up to the skydiver after he obtains his license to make
>the decision.

Which is exactly what I said above.

>You have stirred the brew and divided the camps with over 15 posts
>on this subject in the past few days.

And that was my objective; to make people think about the issue.

>AAD's are insurance. If you can afford it and want it, buy one. If you
>feel like "it will never happen to me", and if it does you can afford the
> results, do not buy one.

Agreed; every jumper makes their own decisions on such things after they are off student status.

>Remember the saying "Experience is something you gain, two seconds
>AFTER you needed it"? Tell us Bill, how do you prepare for it? Go out and
> create a real emergency situation?

No, you create a FAKE emergency situation and deal with it. You go unstable on your level 6 and then you recover, and you do this at 9000 feet where you have space to recover. You land crosswind on purpose on a light wind day, then you are better able to do it when you have a quarter second to prepare for it when someone cuts you off. You exit a plane at 2000 feet on a good day to do a hop and pop to prepare for a bailout when the plane's on fire. The people who just imagine doing these things, deciding not to expose themselves to the risks of crosswind landings, are not as well prepared for crosswind landings as people who actually do it.

This does not mean, of course, that you have to prepare for such emergencies, that you have to learn to land your canopy crosswind or learn to judge altitude by sight alone. After you graduate, all those things are up to the jumper to decide if he wants to learn them or not. It is my opinion that a jumper who can fly his canopy in all regimes of flight and all modes of landing, who can judge his altitude without instruments or reminders, and who practices his emergency procedures by doing them (via a cutaway rig) is a better (and safer) skydiver than one who does not prepare for these events, or does simulated preparation only. Feel free to disagree. In the end, all that matters is what the jumper thinks.

>Your post reminds me of an "old-school" skydivers saying. "If you can't
> convince them with the facts, baffle them with BS". I guess we can all
>consider ourselves "baffled" by that three page post.

Feel free to call my opinion bullshit (you needn't abbreviate it out of political correctness) and feel free to believe that pretend experience doing something is just as good as actual experience. I will continue to say what I believe to be true, despite newer jumpers who feel all that old-school stuff is nonsense. After all, modern skydiving was invented shortly after 1990, according to at least one post on the topic. How can us old time jumpers have anything to say in such a new and dynamic sport?


(This post was edited by billvon on Sep 15, 2003, 10:41 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Sep 15, 2003, 10:20 PM
Post #39 of 155 (1720 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

> I have both soloed an airplane and jumped without an AAD.
>I don't believe there is the slightest resemblance between the experiences.

Never said they were the same. That's why I put "solo" in quotes.

There was a very strong resemblance between my first SL jump and my first solo. I was scared in both cases, knew I had to know my shit in both cases, and did it in both cases. Afterwards I felt about the same sense of accomplishment. Nowadays that resemblance is often greatly watered down, with the progression from tandem to AFF to coach jumps to solos with an AAD. Very few people leave the door of an airplane on a tandem thinking about decision altitudes, landing patterns and malfunctions.

>I certainly do not believe that making jumps without an AAD made me
>a better or more confident skydiver in any way.

To someone who does not rely on an AAD, it makes no difference if you're wearing one or not. To someone who relies very heavily on their AAD, that jump without one would be a very big deal.


craddock  (D 22750)

Sep 16, 2003, 5:35 AM
Post #40 of 155 (1698 views)
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Re: [turnlow] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Personally, I don't see the logic in jumping without an AAD. I think of it akin people who did not like airbags or antilock brakes

I can stop my F150 faster in wet snowy conditions with my antilock brakes disconected. No question about it. Just one reason why I do not like them. They are great for a large percentage of drivers, but not for everyone.

Josh


Blahr

Sep 16, 2003, 5:38 AM
Post #41 of 155 (1695 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've heard several people say things to the effect of "I'm not going to do something dangerous to make some dumb point!" I think that misses the point.

I am one of the guys that made this statement. Although I have only 57 jumps, about the last 40 of them were with no AAD, no RSL, and a round reserve. Not old school, but maybe middle aged school? I also did the static line method being too poor for AFF. Radio didnt work on the very first one. JM told me afterwards that I obviously didnt need it so I was signed off radio from jump #1.
I think I went solo.

The point I was trying to make with the quotes statement is that if its available to me, I'm not gonna go without it just to prove to someone else that I'm not too dependant on it.
I know what its there for. Its there for that one jump in ten thousand (or more) where I am somehow incapapacitated and unable to open my parachute.
In that situation, I certainly DO depend on it to save my sorry ass. Thats what its for.
If I couldnt afford one, I'd go back to jumping without it as I have for most of my jumps.

I dont think I missed the point. I believe that I have nailed it on the head. Cool


(This post was edited by Blahr on Sep 16, 2003, 5:46 AM)


dterrick  (B 5079)

Sep 16, 2003, 8:13 AM
Post #42 of 155 (1666 views)
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Re: [craddock] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I can stop my F150 faster in wet snowy conditions with my antilock brakes disconected. No question about it. Just one reason why I do not like them. They are great for a large percentage of drivers, but not for everyone.

Aahhhhh, THANKYOU Josh. Here's my 'in' on the thread for what it's worth.... I've read the thread and all its dissenting opinions and I'm about to introduce 'think for themselves' cars into the fray: "Technology" is allowing people to get away with a lower standard of care in the automobile world. For example:

ABS was originally developped to keep airplanes from skidding on icy runways by the British in the late 50's. Not a bad safety feature in that application. However the modern driver now only needs HAMMER on the brakes as hard as you can to stop in a straight line. Under MOST circumstances this is also the shortest stopping distance. You even manage to maintain directional control, as opposed to losing it with wheels locked.

"Mama SUV driver" (please allow the stereotype for a moment) who is yakking on the cell phone or distracted by the kids in the back will now have the capability of plowing into the back of the car ahead WITOHOUT the brakes locked ... becasue she was not in proper care and control of her vehicle and failed to maintain adequate following distance. "Testosterone Joe", on the other hand, will likely plow in because he was speeding and, ABS or not, was gonna get it no matter what.

The police no longer have skid marks as evidence since ABS doesn't leave them.

Distraction from the circumstance(s) is the key in so many accidents - it's not a whole lot different than losing altitude awareness (distrction) or speeding (head-down, too late breakoff) - except in that the consequence in skydiving is almost certain death.

***

Traction control, likewise, keeps people from unintnetional directional changes during acceleration. It also prevents INTENTIONAL directional changes via traction modification. Imagine an 'anti-sideslide' button in RW. What if you need to perform one and can perform it flawlessly? What if you couldn't turn this 'feature' off? You no longer have the needed control and are as helpless as the person who never had the control. The answer is in TRAINING and PRACTISE. Maybe this traction control on/off button is like the switch on your Cypres?

If I'm driving on a gravel road and I aproach a corner too fast the correct technique to bleed speed is called a 'reverse slide'. It's a rally technique and allows a far faster speed through a corner under thee circumstances. You first PITCH the car in the opposite direction you want to go and then pendulum it back in the originally intended direction. So let's say that I turned the traction control off and the ABS off, then I blew the manouver and wound up in the trees with a bent car anyway. Am I better or worse off than "Mama SUV driver" who would have just gone stright off the end of the road? IS there any difference? Methinks this is similar to the options of go low - decide-act versus go low - pitch main- have 2 out. One requires a conscious effort and action, the other only a reaction.


When I got off student status my very next jump was on my BEER rig - an old Racer with a Raven main and Stellar reserve ... NO RSL, NO AAD. I'm still jumping it and it's much like my old sports cars with no ABS, traction control, or air bags. My instruction on the conversion? ...

"It's ALL up to you now Dave ... don't forget to pull" Shocked

I'll own a Cypres when I have the money to step up to a new FF friendly container at the same time. I don't expect that to be real soon but I plan to continue to jump, ever mindful of the consequences of my actions. Each weekend I take my life in my own hands and that makes me feel so alive ... yet I never think anything of the lack of an AAD.

-Dave


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Sep 16, 2003, 9:46 AM
Post #43 of 155 (1644 views)
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Re: [Blahr] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>The point I was trying to make with the quotes statement is that if
> its available to me, I'm not gonna go without it just to prove to
> someone else that I'm not too dependant on it.

If you're trying to prove something to someone else, that's a useless effort; it's not their life. The only person you have to prove anything to is _you._

>If I couldnt afford one, I'd go back to jumping without it as I have
>for most of my jumps.

Then, by definition, you have no problems with AAD dependence.

>I dont think I missed the point. I believe that I have nailed it on the head.

There ya go!


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 16, 2003, 10:06 AM
Post #44 of 155 (1638 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
People do not drive in a dangerous manner, or create hazards conditions on the road around other drivers in order to "test" their ability to survive without insurance or an airbag.

Do you think, J.E. ...That on the other hand, that instead of an airbag sitting there on their steering wheels though, that let's say several razor-sharp tines were protruding, just waiting to skewer/impale them instead, that some of these errant and otherwise distracted drivers might actually instead, drive just a little more attentively & CAREFULLY maybe even??

Sometimes a more imminent and imposing, downright intimate knowledge of the absolute dire consequences of one's actions, unprotected, can be a better control and potential deterrent than that certainly of better "insurance" and "protection".

Just some devils advocate food for thought.
Blue Skies,
-Grant


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 16, 2003, 11:33 AM
Post #45 of 155 (1612 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
People do not drive in a dangerous manner, or create hazards conditions on the road around other drivers in order to "test" their ability to survive without insurance or an airbag.

Do you think, J.E. ...That on the other hand, that instead of an airbag sitting there on their steering wheels though, that let's say several razor-sharp tines were protruding, just waiting to skewer/impale them instead, that some of these errant and otherwise distracted drivers might actually instead, drive just a little more attentively & CAREFULLY maybe even??


Blue Skies,
-Grant

If that were the case, I'd stop and do whatever it took to remove the tines before driving on. The tines might affect my driving but not the driving of the drunks etc. who are out there.

I think your argument would be better applied to "would you pack more carefully if you didn't have a reserve?"


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Sep 16, 2003, 3:15 PM
Post #46 of 155 (1581 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll admit I agree with Billvon and the older guys. The biggest point of emphasis is that if you wouldn't do a jump without a Cypres, you shouldn't do it with one. Whether its a big-way, freeflying, or whatever - if you wouldn't feel comfortable doing it without one, you should think long and hard about whether you should do it with one.

My personal anectdote - a few years ago I went out with a friend on old-timey gear. The belly-mount reserve was older than I was, and everything was freshly repacked. I spotted and jumped out with a friend. He pulled at 7k like planned, but when I went to pull I couldn't find the ripcord. It had come out of its pocket and was floating, and while I searched extensively for it I couldn't find mine. I remember thinking as I was going through 5k that "Wow - old, somewhat unfamiliar gear, no AAD, no RSL - whether I live or die is completely and absolutely up to me."

I ended up dumping out the belly-mount reserve after flipping over on my back. And that - out of 3300 jumps - remains my favorite and most empowering jump that I have ever done.

W


jumper03  (D License)

Sep 16, 2003, 5:44 PM
Post #47 of 155 (1556 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll admit I agree with Billvon and the older guys. The biggest point of emphasis is that if you wouldn't do a jump without a Cypres, you shouldn't do it with one. Whether its a big-way, freeflying, or whatever - if you wouldn't feel comfortable doing it without one, you should think long and hard about whether you should do it with one.

Maybe I am weenie low time jumper then. Because I look at the above statement and think the same argument can be made for reserves. After all, there are many people with 1000+ jumps that have never cut away. Why have it? Why spend the money on those repacks every 120 days?

I think the best thing that can be said at this point is that we are all responsible for our own safety. If you want to get on the plane without a reserve, or without a cypres, or without an RSL, fine by me. It's your life. But don't talk down to me because I won't.

Jump


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 16, 2003, 9:15 PM
Post #48 of 155 (1532 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

WinkBill,
We were doing so well there for a while..........
Quote:
Feel free to call my opinion bullshit (you needn't abbreviate it out of political correctness) and feel free to believe that pretend experience doing something is just as good as actual experience. I will continue to say what I believe to be true, despite newer jumpers who feel all that old-school stuff is nonsense. After all, modern skydiving was invented shortly after 1990, according to at least one post on the topic. How can us old time jumpers have anything to say in such a new and dynamic sport?

I don't do PC. Nor do I use vulgar language. Nor do you know what I believe or pretend. There lies (sp as intended) the problem.
On the basics, we agree. On your application to "solo", well, have another drink. As far as "us old time jumpers", we are still here, we must be doing something right, AAD or not. So, "just the facts Sir".
(We'll see how old you really are!)
We all have opinions of which we are free to express, and you do a fine job Bill, you must just be too poetic for us black and white guys. But of course, you don't believe in WMD's either????????????

Blues,

J.E.


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 16, 2003, 9:32 PM
Post #49 of 155 (1522 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileYou see Scrumpot, that is the problem. You are the devil!!!! Just kidding!!!!

You should have included Bill's quote that came before your edited quote.

Grant, you surely don't believe that your scenario is anything other than sarcasm do you? This just shows how ridiculous "opinions" become when it's a key board and not eye to eye.
Quote:
Sometimes a more imminent and imposing, downright intimate knowledge of the absolute dire consequences of one's actions, unprotected, can be a better control and potential deterrent than that certainly of better "insurance" and "protection".

So, how many skydivers do you know that do not understand that if you do not pull, you do not survive? Intimate knowledge or common sense?

Blues,

J.E.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 6:35 AM
Post #50 of 155 (1492 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So, how many skydivers do you know that do not understand that if you do not pull, you do not survive? Intimate knowledge or common sense?

In real terms actually, I see quite a few skydivers who I do NOT think consider the consequences of their actions at all. Sure, we all "know" that if we don't pull we're goin' in (unless you have one of those fancy doo-dad Cypres thingy's on your back ready to go FOR YOU that is Wink). So many have tried to make it all, if not in reality, then in their minds at least somehow "antiseptic". How many young jumpers do you hear around the DZ today saying things to their whuffo friends who they've brought out, things like: "what I'm about to do is SAFER than our drive home afterwards is gonna be" (etc.)? BULLSHIT! Our sport is an "extreme" one, with very dire consequences looming for those that don't respect it & fuck up -PERIOD. Too many people lately it seems have indeed lost a REAL grasp on that, and way too often the glossing-over attitudes of "it always happens to the other guy, it will never happen to me" shove it down, supress it, rather than FACE IT & DEAL WITH IT seems to prevail.

A real, tangible respect for what they are doing? Actually, that's precisely my point J.E.
No sir, I see plenty of jumpers out here today who in fact do NOT have that at all.


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