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Jumping without a cypres

 


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Sep 15, 2003, 12:05 PM
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Jumping without a cypres Can't Post

I've been watching the various cypres threads with interest. There seems to be a fight brewing between the "you don't need an AAD" faction and the "how dare you take issue with all my safety gear!" camp. Rather than keep up with the many threads I thought I'd just post some thoughts here.

I'm definitely an old-school skydiver. I started on DC-5's and round reserves, with a Sentinel Mk2000 as an AAD. We couldn't wait to get off student status because we could finally disconnect the damn things, pull at 3000 feet without fear of a misfire, and get other people to jump with us. When I bought my first canopy, a used PD-190 loaded at .95, I got several speeches on how I had to handle such a high performance canopy. Shortly after I got that Ray got a brand new Monarch 190, a canopy so dangerous no one but him was allowed to jump it. After all, it was ZP!

Times change.

I think one thing that's changed with time is the concept of soloing. In a sense, you soloed on your first jump in the static line program. You had to climb out on the strut yourself, hang there, and let go. The JM would watch you for a few seconds then turn his attention to someone else. After a few jumps you'd have to open your own parachute, again with no help whatsoever. If you screwed up you were in trouble; your cruddy AAD might save your life, but it's not something you'd want to depend on at the rate that they had problems. Compare that to an AFF student who just has to say "Ready!" and the JM's pick up the count and haul him out the door. From there to pull the student has their undivided attention, and even under canopy two people are more or less responsible for him.

Of course, from a purely practical standpoint, the JM's job in both cases is to make sure the main gets opened, and SL JM's can actually do that more reliably than AFF JM's. I still think there's a significant difference there in how people "solo." I believe that tandem to AFF to coaching creates a path whereby a somewhat timid student can ease into the sport, without ever being "alone," to the extent that their first jump without a JM (and especially at 4000 feet!) is cause for great consternation. Nowadays we even have an AAD that's so reliable that a student who uses one during student status need never give it up.

Is this a bad thing? From the top-level view of saving lives it certainly isn't. The cypres has saved a lot of people, both students and experienced jumpers. And the AFF program is a good fit for a lot of people; even initially timid jumpers go on to be instructors, competitors and leaders in the sport, and we are better off with them.

But I think there is still something lost when the concept of the solo is diluted. It remains perhaps the most basic part of learning to fly a plane. There is nothing at all different in terms of skills required to fly without an instructor than with one; indeed, most CFI's want to see at least a few flights where the CFI sits there and does nothing while the student preflights the plane, talks to the tower, plans the pattern, manipulates the controls etc. And the student does nothing different on his first solo flight. It is still, I think, a huge step - the first flight without the backup of the instructor sitting there.

Why is it so important? Two reasons, I think. First of all, it's a confidence builder. A pilot who can fly with a silent instructor in the right seat can _probably_ fly without one in the plane - a pilot who solos has proven to himself that he can. Secondly, there is something inherently different about flying without a backup. There is no instructor to remind you of the ground frequency, so you better remember it. There is no one to remind you of the pre-takeoff checklist, so you better make sure you have it memorized or have it available. In other words, you know you have to get it right or else, and that knowledge makes you a better pilot.

In skydiving, we ease into this a lot more gradually, letting the student do more and more on his own. I worry that we never get to the point of true soloing any more - we never make a jump where our survival is entirely up to us. Sure, we demonstrate all the skills needed to be able to safely jump, but today many people never jump without a device backing up the most important skill in skydiving - getting an open canopy before impact. Is that bad? It is certainly a change in attitude, and as we've seen there are people who are overly dependent on that device, and ask more of it than it can do. Someone willing to jump without a cypres doesn't have that sort of dependence; someone unwilling to do even a single 'solo' jump _may_ have such a dependence. In some cases it's easy to tell if that dependence exists, but I don't know of any hard and fast rule to determine who's overly dependent (beyond being willing to jump without one.)

There's another facet of this, one that I think is important. I've heard several people say things to the effect of "I'm not going to do something dangerous to make some dumb point!" I think that misses the point. A person who learns by doing becomes better at that thing than someone who simulates doing it. Actual experience has more value than pretend experience, even if it's marginally more dangerous to get that experience. You learn to safely land downwind by doing it; you learn to safely flat turn by doing it. Someone who goes to a canopy control seminar then downsizes that day to a much smaller parachute, thinking that listening to a guy talk alone makes him a better canopy pilot, is less prepared than the guy who practices on his own (large) canopy until he has mastered it and _then_ downsizes. Both are important, of course. But actual experience wins over listening to someone else's version of that actual experience. You take a small risk, say by learning to land downwind on a day when the wind is light and the ground is soft. You are rewarded with experience that you cannot get any other way, and that experience can save your life.

Take another example from flying. Most pilots learn to set up an engine-out landing. They don't actually land without an engine, or even get within 500 feet of landing; that's dangerous, the engine may have shock cooling problems, it may not deliver power immediately etc. They generally switch emphasis from forced landing practice to one-engine operation once they get to twins and larger planes. They do not, of course, ever actually _land_ without an engine. That would be even more dangerous.

Well, at least most pilots don't. Bob Pearson did; he was a glider pilot as well as a pilot for Air Canada. He hadn't just practiced engine out approaches; he had landed a great many times with no engine, very few instruments and no way to go around. When his 757 lost power in both engines, he found himself in a glider with very few instruments (his 'glass cockpit' instruments all went dead) and resorted to his experience landing gliders to safely land an unpowered 757 on a runway that had been converted to a drag strip. No one was injured; the plane was barely damaged.

Practicing those dangerous no-engine landings for real, in an ideal environment (i.e. in a glider designed for such landings) made him a better pilot and most probably saved his life and the lives of his passengers. Similarly, skydivers who practice dangerous manuevers for real under ideal conditions become better skydivers as a result, at the cost of a slightly increased level of risk. Tracking jumps make for better trackers. Intentional cutaways make for skydivers who are better at emergency procedures. Jumping without an altimeter (or one covered over, or in a normally inaccessible location) make for more altitude aware jumpers. Doing a ten second delay without goggles can make a jumper better prepared for losing their goggles in freefall. Demo jumpers who can consistently land in stadiums are better at accuracy than jumpers who land on large open fields.

So while I can certainly understand a jumper's reluctance to jump without all possible safety equipment and outs, sometimes doing just that under ideal conditions is an important part of learning to be a safer jumper. A jumper who can land in a stadium is safer landing in a big open field than a jumper who needs that big open field to land safely. A jumper who is able to jump out of a plane with a one-canopy rig and nothing else (no altimeter, AAD, helmet etc) is safer when using modern equipment than a skydiver who depends on all the features of that modern equipment to land safely. That doesn't mean he SHOULD jump without a reserve or AAD, but he should be a good enough packer, judge of altitude etc to be able to if he had to. Even if he never does it, trying to get to that point is a good goal in terms of safety.

Does all this mean that I think all jumpers should jump without AAD's? No. They have done a lot for the sport, and overall their good (saving people who would have otherwise died) has outweighed their bad (giving less-competent people enough confidence to continue jumping, encouraging skydivers to go on more dangerous jumps than they otherwise would.) A jumper who would never jump without an AAD and an RSL is probably still acceptably safe; they are pretty reliable devices, and can probably compensate for a slight reliance on the part of the jumper. I would suggest, though, that if a jumper is uncomfortable with the idea of _ever_ jumping without a cypres, they take a long hard look at why that is, and what they think a cypres will do for them. In some cases, they are relying on it to do more than it can.

As a final note, I'm an instructor. That means that when I am with a student, what I say goes. That ends once they're off student status. I keep teaching; the last 'formal' instruction I give is usually water training, and I teach informally at places like Rantoul and Lost Prairie when I organize. At that point, though, what I say falls under advice rather than instruction. A suggestion that someone consider a jump without an AAD or a visual altimeter is just that; a suggestion. I think it can help jumpers become more self-reliant, and I think that's a good thing. People can disagree without them being a bad skydiver, or without them being a horribly device dependent accident-waiting-to-happen. It's just my take on an issue that I see in skydiving.


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 12:25 PM
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Good post Bill, although I have a couple points I would like to make.


First of all, I think you're generalizing when you say that students don't get the "solo" jump done, that someone is holding their hand.

When I'm teaching (coaching) a student for their 2 H&Ps during the ISP program (tandem progression), they've learned how to spot they're obviously 100% responsible for pulling. So, the control of the jump is in their hands, I let it be in their hands. I tell them that they are responsible for their spot, that if they get out in a spot where they can't get back, then they're landing off. So they go to the winds aloft posted, get the winds, look at the aeral map and decide their spot. They brief the pilot, we get in and go. Before all of this, I've already talked to the pilot, so he'll setup jumprun off of the spot so there needs to be a correction and that he gives the door semi-early (roughly where a 1 minute call would be). So the door is opened early, the student is spotting and giving corrections, then get out and do their H&P having to pull within 5 seconds to pass the jump (and we actually do our H&Ps from the correct altitude, which isn't always the case at some DZs).

What the student doesn't know is that I'm not going to let them leave at a spot where they can't get back.

My point is, they don't know I'm holding their hand, since I've made it very clear to them that "the only reason I'm in the plane for this is because I want to do a H&P after you and that a Coach *has* to be in the plane because of the rules."

No, this doesn't directly corrolate with the AAD/no AAD debate on the surface, but I'm making a point about your point that students "have their hand held" through their entire training.

As an instructor I try to create an environment where the student feels like they're self supervising and that they are totally responsible for their jump, at a certain point in their training, to give them another point to truely learn what they're doing. Much like the engine out training for pilots.


Oh, side note, our pilot "Pilot Mike" landed our 182 with no engine and 4 jumpers after loosing the engine at 250ft, in the only available space to land with no injuries to anyone on board (not even a bump or scrap) and with minimal damage to the plane (do to the field), and all he ever went through was the engine out training that wasn't totally real.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Sep 15, 2003, 12:32 PM
Post #3 of 155 (4013 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>What the student doesn't know is that I'm not going to let them
>leave at a spot where they can't get back.

I think that's similar to a student pilot with an instructor who tells them "I'm not going to do anything; it's your show." My CFI did this to me, and indeed let me make minor mistakes. I still knew in the back of my mind that he would save my life if I did something really stupid. That was the big difference on my first solo; I really knew he couldn't save me because he wasn't there.

>As an instructor I try to create an environment where the student
> feels like they're self supervising and that they are totally
> responsible for their jump

I think that's true of most skydiving _and_ flying instruction. I still think there's a fundamental and important difference between doing something with an instructor and doing the same thing yourself.

>Oh, side note, our pilot "Pilot Mike" landed our 182 with no engine
> and 4 jumpers after loosing the engine at 250ft, in the only
> available space to land with no injuries to anyone on board (not
> even a bump or scrap) and with minimal damage to the plane (do
> to the field), and all he ever went through was the engine out
> training that wasn't totally real.

That's great. If he ever has to do that again (hopefully he doesn't) he will be better prepared than someone who never has. Harry the pilot never had such experience, and his attempt to get the plane back to the runway when its engine quit killed him and paralyzed the JM on the plane. (NY, 1992.) I wish he'd had the experience your pilot did.


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 12:35 PM
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I trust that you got my point in including the stuff about Pilot Mike? I was trying to make the point that proper training can overcome the limitations we have in creating a truely "do or die" situation for our students.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 15, 2003, 12:54 PM
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you hit the head on the nail with this one Bill. I agree with you completely that "true soloing" is done without a cypress. There is nothing to rely on but one's packing skills and reaction skills to whatever part of the skydive they are currently inside of. However, Having about 50/50 with and without a cypress, I'll take it with now that I know in my own mind that I can solo and am comfortable and confident in my ability to do so. Having a cypress today is only due to the fact that I like to jump without a helmet pretty regularly and I have a decent job WinkWink


Fast  (D 28237)

Sep 15, 2003, 1:26 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Looking from a new jumpers point of view at the way people are trained around my DZ, and from all the things that I have read on here, I can but give my opinion.


For starters, I agree with the things that you are saying about instruction today making it possible for some of the people that are more timid (I can include myself in this category some, though I am a very dedicated person to something once I make up my mind to do it.) I think that along the way there is a lot of reasurance given to skydiving students that the thing they enjoy (skydiving) can be safe no matter what the mind tells you. Perfectly safe, uhh hell no, but you can minimize the risks that have to be taken.

My student progressoin was on older rigs that have FXCs as aads, and all the time jumping them rigs I honestly didn't really tust the thing to go off. I was more confident in my JMs than the FXC. I think one thing that may not always be clear to students is that when you make the decisoin to go out the door of that plane, you are responsible and no one else. If your doing aff and you lose both your JMs its up to you to pull stable, or pull at all if your low. You have to be the one responsible for your own altitude, no one else... The JMs are there to help you not die, and give instruction, but you can't rely 100% on them, an AAD, RSL or anything else other than yourself. That being said, my first solo jump was #9. I had a tandem and 7 aff jumps before that (my tandem was pre any instruction, just to see if I wanted to become a skydiver.) I looked over my gear, and so did my instructors, but when it came time to go out the door, it was my decision, and my responsibility to do all the things I learned. I was just out there, alone, me, the sky, and the planet rushing up at me, my responsibility. I think that jump and the one following it were two jumps that gave me the confidence and experience to trust in myself. I didn't have to make a lot of jumps with people there with me to make sure I pulled, I went on #9, did it and knew I could form that day forward.

Now this all may not be relavent to the cypress debate, but I do agree with ya bill, even if I had some gear related supervision, that getting out there and knowing you can do it is a serious acomplishment and learning tool, there was no one to back my pull up except a AAD that I honestly put very little faith in. In my mind it was pull or die.

Fast forward 2 months and I have about 40 jumps, quite a few of which have just been me going out alone to practice everything from the A check dive, to learning to sitfly (hey its a fun thing to do when no one is around to jump with Laugh) The gear I have been using has a cypress in it, its rental gear from the club. It does make me feel more safe, there is some degree of risk that is taken off the stack of ways you can die skydiving when you use one. There are no garuntees, but it does limit risk, we can all agree on that.

When I started skydiving there was two things in my mind that I decided I didn't want to do, one was be the person running out to the plane gear half on, and the other is be a person who does not trust themselfs to pull, therefor requireing a cypress. I have already done the first one, because of a rushed load that me and a coach needed to make (don't worry everything was on and secured/tight by the time I made it to the plane.)

I in looking for gear have decided that I will get a rig that has one (partially to make my parents happy, whom I live with because I am a broke, skydiving, college student.) The opertunity is there for me to jump without one, the time will come when it needs service and I have to decide on a repack or to wait.

The only thing that still goes on in my mind about jumping without one is what if its that jump where something happens. I trust myself to pull, and do it at the right altitude, and deal with a malfunction. I agree with what you have said, there is a valuable experience to be had in jumping without one.

If you have no cypress you have to take that extra time to have a good exit, not cork into someone, watch your altitude, there is less margin for error. I think that one point that needs to ring in everyones mind, and from all the things that are said, I don't think does, is that cypress or not you should always be taking them steps to make sure a dive is a safe one.

I am in the so called 'cypress generation' and I think that there may not be much to gain by jumping a cypress but that thier is a lot to lose by not jumping one. Does that make me an unsafe skydiver, I sure hope not. To the people that don't jump one regularly does it quell your concerns when a person has my state of mind that, a cypress doesn't mean shit when your deciding what saftey procedures to follow? Cypress or not, I see no reason to not do something to instill more saftey. Being aware in freefall and under canopy, and even in the plane, not getting complacent and not being stupid about your actions should be the commonplace for cypress owners and for non cypress owners.


I suppose that its hard for me to convey my opinion on this subject and how I really personally feel in my own mind about this, because it is easy to look at me and say that I'm a cypress kid and am just saying this. I suppose the only way to show otherwise is to take the extra risk, and prove the level of saftey that I wish to achieve by jumping without a cypress.

Whats the worst that could happen? Die? Yep... well that can happen on any skydive so where is the difference? I guess that we can debate about this a lot and people will only make up thier own minds. What is the common reason that people say they jump with a cypress, tail strike? Mid air collision? I think them are the two most prominent ones.

So what if we take a person that jumps with one for them reason, and put them out on a solo, from a cessna, that has no tail to hit? Ok the reasons for having one that are stated are gone. Now if that same person still has a problem jumping without that cypress then I think people are starting to gain some ground in saying that bowling or gold might be a better sport.

You have taken away the things that they say they need the cypress for, so they should be able to jump without one, once, twice, 5 times, 100 times... There is no need by what they said. Am I just being naive, or is that something that would make people who don't trust a person when they say they only want it for being unconscious comfortable. Would that satisfy the growing concern of the pre-cypress generation of jumpers? Or is it a matter of taking all the risk, getting out of the king air on a FF or RW jump, taking the risk of the tailstrike, or collision, and surviving that?

I'm sure that some day I will jump without one, if it is only to get on back to back loads, or because mine is in for service. A person has to have the confidence and trust in themselves to know that they can pull, if you need a cypress to make you confident in yourself to pull then I thinkthere is a problem.

--------

On the alti note, there is a person at my DZ that jumps with no alti, and I think its pretty damn cool that he can tell almost any altitude just by looking.


That is, was, and will stay a long winded post, some is relevant, some might not be, but its my experience and train of thought when it comes to learning, and the cypress debate. I really think that this subject is something that could be discussed for a few hours over a could of cold ones around the bonfire.

Blue Skies, and Safe dives!


Hazarrd

Sep 15, 2003, 1:28 PM
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't the most recent Cypres save that was posted in the Incident forum give most people enough of a reason to use an AAD?


Fast  (D 28237)

Sep 15, 2003, 1:30 PM
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Re: [Hazarrd] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Doesn't the most recent Cypres save that was posted in the Incident forum give most people enough of a reason to use an AAD?

I think that it does, but I don't think thats what the concern is about. I think we are at the point where the technology is there, but the problem that it instills is a misaligned trust in the device, rather than having the trust in yourself.

I think its ok, if people want them for the type of saves that we just saw, but not if its because your not sure if your going to pull, or if you want to be less safe, and take more risk in other parts of a skydive.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 15, 2003, 1:37 PM
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Re: [Fast] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly - there is a perception from a student's standpoint that the Cypress is a save all device. I act like I don't have one at all times.

I can compare this to all of the new bullshit gadgets out there for people who travel the winter backcountry out here in the Rocky Mountains. The "avalung" for instance, or the avalanche beacon that has a directional locator on it. 9 times out of 10 one is killed in an avalnche becuase a car sized chunk of snow compacted to have more mass than a car hits them and breaks them. More and more people think that straping on an avalung or the latest and greatest avalanche beacon is all they need to survive - when that couldn't be further from the truth.

The only thing one should rely on to save themselves is themselves and the only way to improve one's odds of survivial is to increase one's knowledge set regarding a partiuclar sport of subject. IMHO anyone who relies on a device of any shape or form to save them should NOT be participating in the sport in question.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Sep 15, 2003, 1:43 PM
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't get it folks? Maybe I'm just dense ... I guess we need to make this sport more dangerous because obviously many of you out there think that jumping with a cypres is wrong. Let's have some more people bounce and then claim that hey "they obviously shouldn't have been skydiving in the first place". It sounds like only cool people who truly solo should be allowed to skydive and the rest of us (who time and time again have saved out own asses by activating our mains or reserves) shouldn't be skydiving because we have this modern gadget (very similar to an airbag) installed in our rigs.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:04 PM
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Re: [Fast] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you have no cypress you have to take that extra time to have a good exit, not cork into someone and watch your altitude, there is less margin for error.

This statement, if you had stuck with just THIS, is precisely the attitude that worries me (greatly) about SOME new jumpers I'm seeing today. If you even remotely agree with the above, as it is, then you need to reconsider skydiving in TOTAL, IMHO!!

Think about it. Why would you NOT do these things ANYWAY? ...And yes, I've actually heard jumpers saying quite the similar!

But thank goodness Derrick you went on to say (or I'd have to be otherwise jumping all over you here! Wink):

Quote:
I think that one point that needs to ring in everyones mind, and from all the things that are said, I don't think does, is that cypress or not you should always be taking them steps to make sure a dive is a safe one.

I don't think it does either Derrick. So THANK YOU, for posting YOUR post as well, from your perspective too. You've restored my faith, just one little bit here maybe.

Blue Skies!
-Grant


Fast  (D 28237)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:04 PM
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't get it folks? Maybe I'm just dense ... I guess we need to make this sport more dangerous because obviously many of you out there think that jumping with a cypres is wrong. Let's have some more people bounce and then claim that hey "they obviously shouldn't have been skydiving in the first place". It sounds like only cool people who truly solo should be allowed to skydive and the rest of us (who time and time again have saved out own asses by activating our mains or reserves) shouldn't be skydiving because we have this modern gadget (very similar to an airbag) installed in our rigs.

I don't think that anyone thinks that jumping with a cypress is wrong. I sure don't. I think that people are trying to say that jumping with a cypress for the wrong reasons is bad, it sets up a situation where a person will die because the cypress fails. I think that the non-cypress advocates are trying to make it clear to the people that take them for granted that a cypress is and only should be a last resort, not a device that you should be relying on. I think that a cypress save is one of the greatest things that we can read about happening. I sure as shit will take it over reading about a bounce. The point that I think people are trying to make, to people like me who are new in the sport (and yes i get it) is that you should jump like you have no cypress even if you do.

Jump with the awareness and presence of mind, and saftey that you would be if you sudennly realized you had no cypress just before you went out the door, or if there was no such thing.

I think the problem that people are seeing is that people are becomming reliant on them as a first line defense, like a reserve handle, rather than a last resort, all hell has broken lose, ground screaming up, i hope to god i walk away from this resort.

Thats just how I am seeing the debate.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:07 PM
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Re: [Fast] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill- Very nice post. To throw in my two cents:

I am reminded of a chapter of Chuck Yeager's autobiography. He was talking about how at fighter training, him and most others would go out and fly hard, right at the edge of the their and the aircraft's capability. Buzzing, jumping each other and dog fighting down to the deck, etc. All this flying was against the regulations, but they did it anyway. The pilots that went out and flew like this were the pilots that survived combat.

I have over 50 cutaways, 14 live. I have flown high performance canopies, big canopies, high-stress, small landing area demos. I have BASE jumped. Chased down out of control students. Worked on my own gear. Pulled low. Pulled high. Jumped without an AAD, RSL, goggles, helmet, or altimeter, all on the same jump. Flown video. I have taken 900+ people on a tandem jump. I have jumped aircraft not set up for skydiving (everything from a Piper Cub to a Beech T-34A Mentor). I've made 18 jumps (16 Tandem, 2 AFF) in a day. I've spent around 20 hours in the wind tunnel (Orlando and Ft. Bragg). I've exited a jump-ship that lost it's only engine, spotting the whole load from 7,000 feet. I've laid on the wing of an aircraft from taxi to take -off, and climb until I slid off the wind at altitude.

What has all this given me? I don't panic when it gets ugly. I depend on me when things get hairy. I am prepared to do whatever needs to be done in a stressful situation. I am comfortable relying on my own abilities to get me out of any situation I get into. An AAD, altimeter, helmet, etc do make me safer, but I can function without them and knowing that gives me confidence that helps me manage my fears and stress when things aren't going as planned. When crunch time comes, I don't any shred of doubt that I can handle it, and that allows me to focus on the solution to the problem.

Knowing that you can exit an aircraft, with out an altimeter, AAD, RSL, etc and be successful is a confidence builder. Until you do, there will always be a little doubt in the back of your mind if you can really handle it or not.

The difference between flying airplane with a CFI sitting next to you doing nothing and flying a plane solo is huge. When that CFI steps out of the airplane, you must perform. Even if the CFIU didn't do anything during the flight they are there and will take over if you get in over your head. After flying without a CFI next to you, you cross a threshold. You have proven to yourself that you can fly the aircraft without any help, just you at the controls. The difference between the last flight before you solo and the first flight after you solo is dramatic.

It's not about gear, it's about mind set, attitude, and confidence. Not arrogance, but well-earned confidence.

You are the second person to land, and have followed the first person down only to realize, too late to turn, that the first person is landing down wind. Two possible reactions: 1) You immediately get the "fight or flight" spurt of adrenaline and tense up realizing that you are going to land downwind. Something you have never done before and fear that it will hurt. You get wide-eyed at the ground speed, faster than you ever seen before. You flare early, trying to slow the canopy down, trying to prevent injury. The canopy responds to the input, flaring high, then runs our of airspeed and lift, dropping you down several feet, still with a high ground speed. You hit hard, tumbling and rolling. Getting scratched and bruised up. Your jumpsuit gets torn and your rig scuffed and dirty. 2) You think to yourself; "OK, self, you've landed down wind before. You know how to do this. This may be faster than ever before, but the same principles still hold true. Relax, breathe. Don't flare high, flare at normal height and be ready to slide like a 500 pound tandem on a no-wind day." You hesitate, fight off the instinct to flare high and slow the canopy down. You flare at normal altitude, ease it down and slide to a stop. You leg strap has some grass stains on it, but nothing else is damaged, including you. You get up grinning, thinking "Man, that was fast! Cool swoop!"

Having down a downwind landing under conditions that you choose and knowing it is coming before ever leaving the ground prepares you for landing downwind under conditions you didn't choose.

The difference may seem small, but the result can be huge.

All that being said, I think Cypres's, Helmets, altimeters, audibles, etc are awesome, when accompanied by the correct attitude and mindset.

Derek


Fast  (D 28237)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:09 PM
Post #14 of 155 (3900 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you have no cypress you have to take that extra time to have a good exit, not cork into someone and watch your altitude, there is less margin for error.

This statement, if you had stuck with just THIS, is precisely the attitude that worries me (greatly) about SOME new jumpers I'm seeing today. If you even remotely agree with the above, as it is, then you need to reconsider skydiving in TOTAL, IMHO!!

Yeah, well you don't have to do them things on every skydive if you have a cypress, but I wont jump with you, and I think you would be a pretty stupid person. I guess the problem is that people are taking saftey for granted when they have a cypress, and becomming complacent. "Oh it will save me."

/sigh


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:10 PM
Post #15 of 155 (3898 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't get me wrong - I love knowing I have one in my rig, but I just try not to rely on it in any sense of the word.

How's it been btw Steve!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 15, 2003, 2:15 PM
Post #16 of 155 (3886 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>I guess we need to make this sport more dangerous because
> obviously many of you out there think that jumping with a cypres is
> wrong.

No, we need to make it _safer_ by jumping as if you don't need a cypres - then using one anyway. If we have people that truly depend on cypreses (and I've met some) then we have indeed made this sport more dangerous through our dependence on a device.

>It sounds like only cool people who truly solo should be allowed to
> skydive and the rest of us (who time and time again have saved out
> own asses by activating our mains or reserves) shouldn't be
> skydiving because we have this modern gadget (very similar to an
> airbag) installed in our rigs.

At the beginning of this thread is a (rather long) post that basically says the opposite of that. Rather than repost it I would direct you to it.


petetheladd  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:16 PM
Post #17 of 155 (3883 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Very well put Bill.

I think you got across the point, that a jump where you are completely responsible for the pull is like a progression jump.

The added risk will heighten perceptions, drive a lesson home and also bolster self control.

I also am from the old static line round school. After my dummy pulls, it was time for a 3 sec freefall.
The Instructor scared the crap out of me(intentionally) telling me how unreliable the fxc AADs were, how when they sent theirs to the factory for testing, half of them were out of spec and I better be planning on saving myself on the jump.

Everybody doing his first solo freefall was very apprehensive about it.

The transition to squares was again very nervey. No AAD of any way, shape or form.
The CCI led me into his office, pulled out a stack of fatalities, and proceeded to explain that everyone of them went in with a perfectly good reserve on their back.
He finished off by saying, you will die on the next jump if you dont save yourself - and if I need to use my reserve 'I better pull handles and no matter how bad things become, keep pulling at stuff, even to pulling my socks offLaugh, I better go in naked.Sly

Let me tell you every neuron was focused on the pull and reserve drills, as was anyone doing their first AAD-less/square jump

On my first reserve ride - no RSL - I absolutely had a mindset of no matter what, the reserve handle was gonna get pulled or I am going in.

So where am I going with this - just trying to relate some of my early experiences skydiving, certainly it was a more direct instruction than today.

Now I would bet that anyone who has never made a jump without an AAD and was confronted with actually doing one from say 4,000 ft.
They would be treating it as an extra special skydive with all the apprehension and nervousness that goes with a progression jump i.e. the unknown.

Now I am not advocateing anyone to throw their cypress away, I have them now in both my rigs. But I am advocateing doing that extra special skydive with it turned off to cement the idea of - its all you, now pull goddammit pull.

Now pick the bones outta that.

P.S. Add to this - dynamic stalls, downwind/crosswind landings for that extra special feeling


(This post was edited by petetheladd on Sep 15, 2003, 2:19 PM)


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:21 PM
Post #18 of 155 (3870 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Completely like going into avalanche prone conditions. The number one thing taught is, do not ever put yourself in a situation where you'll need your beacon. Prevention is key from the get go. Strange thing is, I think preventing the need for a Cypress in skydiving is much easier to obtain compared to running around in avalanche country imho.

But that's just it - we need to work on every single element of safety in skydiving to reduce that need for a Cypress to less than one percent (but shoot, I'll still take one heh)...


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:39 PM
Post #19 of 155 (3849 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that's a good comparison about the Avalung to an excellent post on the difference between flying with a CFI present and without one.

I had an AAD for my first through (roughly) 5th freefalls. They were mandatory through 3-second delays, and cost extra after that. Since they were Sentinels, and I was an impoverished college student, I didn't pay the extra.

Do I wish it were like that now? No. But what was an acceptable risk to skydivers then is still an acceptable (if not ideal) risk to some skydivers now.

Wendy W.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:40 PM
Post #20 of 155 (3843 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Don't get me wrong - I love knowing I have one in my rig, but I just try not to rely on it in any sense of the word.

So, riddle me this one ...just for "yucks".

You're on jumprun, getting a final pin-check before exit. The person checking your pin(s) also has access to your Cypres window & notices it is OFF. "...Oops, your Cypres is not turned on!"

Are you staying with the plane? ---Or are you still making the jump? Doing &/or thinking anything DIFFERENT now if you do "go" as a result?


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:42 PM
Post #21 of 155 (3840 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
"...Oops, your Cypres is not turned on!"

Are you staying with the plane? ---Or are you still making the jump?

It's information, less important than knowing that I'd blown out a bootie and was planning on doing RW. It would be unlikely to have any effect whatsoever on my likelihood to jump, or how I conducted it. I'd probably remember to turn it on when I got down, but maybe not.

Wendy W.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:44 PM
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Re: [wmw999] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Wendy. You don't think you've influenced Freaky's answer now any though, do you? Wink


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:47 PM
Post #23 of 155 (3833 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm slow -- I didn't realize it was addressed specifically to him. Really...

Wendy W.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 2:50 PM
Post #24 of 155 (3825 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I really do hate it when my bootie blows out on the step too! ...It's usually right before that hot 4-way I was gonna turn 18+ points on, that turned into only 8 or 9 as a result too gall-darn it!! WinkWink

Now if only my Cypres was on.... DOH! Tongue


Nullified  (C 32259)

Sep 15, 2003, 3:06 PM
Post #25 of 155 (3812 views)
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Re: [Fast] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't get it folks? Maybe I'm just dense ... I guess we need to make this sport more dangerous because obviously many of you out there think that jumping with a cypres is wrong. Let's have some more people bounce and then claim that hey "they obviously shouldn't have been skydiving in the first place". It sounds like only cool people who truly solo should be allowed to skydive and the rest of us (who time and time again have saved out own asses by activating our mains or reserves) shouldn't be skydiving because we have this modern gadget (very similar to an airbag) installed in our rigs.

I don't think that anyone thinks that jumping with a cypress is wrong. I sure don't. I think that people are trying to say that jumping with a cypress for the wrong reasons is bad, it sets up a situation where a person will die because the cypress fails.

If I realize on the ride up that I forgot to arm my AAD, I have no problem exiting the aircraft, doing the skydive as planned and not giving it another thought. For what it's worth, I've done it several times. I won't purposely though, leave my AAD unarmed. It just doesn't make sense.
I know there are a handful of people, the (once again) "It's ok, I've got a Cypres people." out there, and I'm pretty sure that we all agree regarding these people.
Believe me, I'm not being lax trying to insure that I don't become unconcious, with or without an AAD. The AAD may get my reserve out in the event that I'm incapacitated, but it won't steer me away from a tree, or the side of a hangar, or a moving prop. It also won't do anything to keep me from breaking my neck upon landing in the peas if I'm unconcious.

There are those people who just don't get that, but again, I think that only a very tiny part of the people who jump with an AAD, --including those who won't jump without-- fall in to the idiot catagory. Maybe the numbers are greater than I think, but still, you can't lump everyone in to the same catagory.

Stay safe.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Sep 15, 2003, 3:13 PM
Post #26 of 155 (1804 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're on jumprun, getting a final pin-check before exit. The person checking your pin(s) also has access to your Cypres window & notices it is OFF. "...Oops, your Cypres is not turned on!"

Are you staying with the plane? ---Or are you still making the jump?

I have made two jumps without my Cypres. The first time, I had a friend turn it off while at altitude because just before jump run I remembered that I had jumped it earlier in the day at a DZ 1400 feet higher than my home DZ (which would means that the Cypres could have fired during my canopy's snivel if I had pulled at my usual 3000 feet). And then a few weeks ago as I was getting on the first load of the day, I remembered that I had forgot to turn it on. And since my Cypres isn't all that accessible without loosening my hardness and I didn't want to hold up the load, I just kept my mouth shut and proceeded with my jump. So I am not one of those people who absolutely has to have a Cypres turned on in order to jump. But I just don't understand some of the people in this debate. It seems that they just like to claim that they are better skydivers because they don't need a cypres.

By the way, I like what Trent wrote in this thread. http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


(This post was edited by CanuckInUSA on Sep 15, 2003, 3:16 PM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 3:35 PM
Post #27 of 155 (1790 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
have made two jumps without my Cypres. The first time, I had a friend turn it off while at altitude because just before jump run I remembered that I had jumped it earlier in the day at a DZ 1400 feet higher than my home DZ

How long were you at the "new" dz before you went up for the jump? ...Doesn't the Cypres re-calibrate itself (unless manually over-ridden for LZ MSL differences from the take-off point) every few minutes? ---As long as it said "0" on the ground, at the CURRENT take-off point on inspection (assumed with your pre-boarding gear-check), why would you have a concern?

Glad to see that you are able to make a jump "without" one though! Wink

Quote:
But I just don't understand some of the people in this debate.

Neither do I, necessarily. Especially when taken into consideration OVER debating and potentially examining (what is getting ignored by most otherwise) the root cause to the incident (a tail-strike on an EMERGENCY BAIL OUT -or what SHOULD HAVE BEEN handled as such) that initiated all this anyway!

Quote:
By the way, I like what Trent wrote in this thread. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=658631;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

On this, for the most part we agree. It's the radical "militants" on either side of the debate, that say you either HAVE TO have one, or you SHOULDN'T; on something that has always been taught to me, that except for student status, is a personal comfort, and yes safety CONSIDERATION ..."CHOICE".


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Sep 15, 2003, 3:40 PM
Post #28 of 155 (1785 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's the radical "militants" on either side of the debate, that say you either HAVE TO have one, or you SHOULDN'T;

I haven't read every post, but I honestly don't see any radical militants who are saying we must jump with an AAD. Who are they?


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 3:55 PM
Post #29 of 155 (1778 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that he may be refering to some DZs that require an AAD to jump there.

That, I think, is too far. Yeah, its great to have one, but you can jump without one. I had about 400 jumps before I finally got a Cypres, although I did want one, just couldn't afford it. I am glad that I have one now, though, its just another layer of protection incase the unpredictable happens.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 4:15 PM
Post #30 of 155 (1771 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It seems that they just like to claim that they are better skydivers because they don't need a cypres.
I haven't seen anyone claiming they are better skydivers because they don't have or use an AAD. I do think those who don't think they need an AAD to skydive are more likely to know and accept the risks involved in skydiving than are some of those who won't jump without one.

Not to mix threads, but part of the reason I quit doing tandems was a comment made to me by one of my passengers. She said "I'm so glad you're here to take care of me." I guess I really am an old fart because to me that comment goes 100% against what I think skydiving is about. And so does the idea that any jumper needs to have an AAD on their rig to skydive safely.

Just for reference, I did 500+ jumps without an AAD or an RSL. My current rig has both installed on it. Not because I need them, but because I've considered the reasons for and against using them and decided for myself that having them there is a good thing. I also know and have accepted the risks that having them there puts on me. This doesn't make me a better skydiver than anyone else.

I'm not sure the two "sides" will ever agree on this one. Kinda like the rapid downsizing issue...


(This post was edited by skybytch on Sep 15, 2003, 4:16 PM)


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 6:16 PM
Post #31 of 155 (1747 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

TongueBill,
You have promoted this topic and beat it to death. AAD or not, it is up to the skydiver after he obtains his license to make the decision. You have stirred the brew and divided the camps with over 15 posts on this subject in the past few days.

AAD's are insurance. If you can afford it and want it, buy one. If you feel like "it will never happen to me", and if it does you can afford the results, do not buy one.

Your comparison to flight instruction is a real reach. Why don't you start a thread on risk taking. Then we can discuss real engine outs, real emergencies, real cut aways, real loss of altitude awareness. You know, real flying and real skydiving.

Remember the saying "Experience is something you gain, two seconds AFTER you needed it"? Tell us Bill, how do you prepare for it? Go out and create a real emergency situation?

Your post reminds me of an "old-school" skydivers saying. "If you can't convince them with the facts, baffle them with BS". I guess we can all consider ourselves "baffled" by that three page post.

Blues,

J.E.
ATP CFII-ASMEL BAFFLED


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 15, 2003, 6:40 PM
Post #32 of 155 (1741 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I have both soloed an airplane and jumped without an AAD.

I don't believe there is the slightest resemblance between the experiences.

I still remember my first solo vividly, many years after it happened, as one of the achievements in my life. I also well remember my first solo IFR flight in actual IMC.

I cannot recall anything much about my no-AAD jumps except the name of the guy who loaned me his rig and that it was 10-way practice.

I certainly do not believe that making jumps without an AAD made me a better or more confident skydiver in any way.


turnlow  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 6:44 PM
Post #33 of 155 (1739 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, I think that Bill makes an extremely valid point here about reliance on AADs. This is not a new concept nor one restricted to skydiving - in economics it's called Moral Hazard. Definitionally it means that people with insurance may take greater risks than they would do without it because they know they are protected. In reference to skydiving, it means that people will do riskier things with an AAD that they would not otherwise. Bill's point about jumping with one, but act like you don't have an AAD is a good point.

Personally, I don't see the logic in jumping without an AAD. I think of it akin people who did not like airbags or antilock brakes. While there is a small minority of people whose having an airbag is a bad idea, for that vast majority of people it saved lives.

I would not object to regulating the use of AADs nationwide (although I would not initiate or lead it). I have had a Cypress fire. Although I beat it with my reserve pull, I was glad to see that it would have saved my life if I had failed. I have also had someone that I jumped and worked with go in when he was knocked out and his Cypress was turned off.

_________________________________________________


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 7:29 PM
Post #34 of 155 (1726 views)
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Re: [turnlow] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileMr. Turnlow,

I will not ask you about your user name considering the thread we are on.Wink

Quote:
Definitionally it means that people with insurance may take greater risks than they would do without it because they know they are protected. In reference to skydiving, it means that people will do riskier things with an AAD that they would not otherwise

Assumption, be it economics, moral, or statistical. Theory, not fact. People do not drive in a dangerous manner, or create hazards conditions on the road around other drivers in order to "test" their ability to survive without insurance or an airbag. Otherwise, if they did, they soon will have their driving privileges taken away. If your theory were true to the majority of people, through economics we would be unable to afford insurance due to the increased cost of claims.

Quote:
Bill's point about jumping with one, but act like you don't have an AAD is a good point.

Agreed, and under that pretense all the other opinions could have been eliminated.

Quote:
Personally, I don't see the logic in jumping without an AAD. I think of it akin people who did not like airbags or antilock brakes. While there is a small minority of people whose having an airbag is a bad idea, for that vast majority of people it saved lives.

Bingo!

Quote:
have had a Cypress fire. Although I beat it with my reserve pull, I was glad to see that it would have saved my life if I had failed. I have also had someone that I jumped and worked with go in when he was knocked out and his Cypress was turned off.

Enough said.

Blues,

J.E.


petetheladd  (D License)

Sep 15, 2003, 8:29 PM
Post #35 of 155 (1710 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's another good article on device dependence with some real life examples of dependence run amok.

http://www.ranchskydive.com/safety/ke_article11.htm


Fast  (D 28237)

Sep 15, 2003, 8:58 PM
Post #36 of 155 (1700 views)
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Re: [petetheladd] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

As I read the first part of that article it sounded in my head like a Dennis Miller rant (nothing wrong with that, I think it was pretty cool). The whole article was well written I would say, and an intersting read for sure.


smiles  (D 41)

Sep 15, 2003, 9:57 PM
Post #37 of 155 (1690 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool..now I yank out my 1st. log book to look back---wow, I have so much to be proud of, Tongue this book should not be stashed away, it is priceless!

I found your post an excellent read, I agree with all you have written. I jump without a cypres today but have made decision to purchase one next year.

I was in shock after my 1st. tandem jump-(1987)
no huge smiles, no yelling ya-hoo or response of adrenaline rush. It took a few days to comprehend my experience and that experience came back to me a little at a time until "the whole picture" was embraced (can recall it to this day.) I returned to the d.z. 2 months later to take the static line progression. Training was like "in the army now." Reserve on belly, lg. army boots and hat, flying main round canopies and even a few round reserve rides.
I left the d.z. many times screaming "I give up"... But memories of freefall from my tandem jump always dragged me back.Smile

So- remarks in my log book jump:
1. s/l congrats. good jump
2. s/l another good jump
3. trcp1 work on exit, no pull
4. trcp2 good exit and pull
5. trcp3 excellent!
6. trcp4 great exit/arch s/l bag pulled jumper unstable.
7. trcp5 (no ground control) good exit/arch & pull- be more aware with your ground control.
8. trcp6 nice jump, great hesitation and ground control
9. trcp7 excellent!, promoted to solo
06 - 5 sec. delays
10 - 10 sec. delays
12 - 15 sec. delays (zbl, flat spin problems)
another 22 solo jumps logged---practise flying down the tube, packing, keeping good alt. awareness, tracking, style set, exit aircraft in any zzz way and get stable.
Then jump with instructor who observed style set and wave off, tracking. At this time I was cleared to make RW 2-way jumps..............

Hey, I always figured I was different than some, needed to be brought into this sport with baby steps and have resented it at times, but now I completely appreciate the training I received and confidence I built. I celebrated my first square reserve, and a 150 Triathlon main 2 yrs. ago. In the next year I will be purchasing a cypresCoolTongueCool, with 1000+ jumps under my belt. Over phorty but so appreciative to my training and confidence it built.CoolTongueSmile

SMilesWink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 15, 2003, 10:13 PM
Post #38 of 155 (1686 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>AAD or not, it is up to the skydiver after he obtains his license to make
>the decision.

Which is exactly what I said above.

>You have stirred the brew and divided the camps with over 15 posts
>on this subject in the past few days.

And that was my objective; to make people think about the issue.

>AAD's are insurance. If you can afford it and want it, buy one. If you
>feel like "it will never happen to me", and if it does you can afford the
> results, do not buy one.

Agreed; every jumper makes their own decisions on such things after they are off student status.

>Remember the saying "Experience is something you gain, two seconds
>AFTER you needed it"? Tell us Bill, how do you prepare for it? Go out and
> create a real emergency situation?

No, you create a FAKE emergency situation and deal with it. You go unstable on your level 6 and then you recover, and you do this at 9000 feet where you have space to recover. You land crosswind on purpose on a light wind day, then you are better able to do it when you have a quarter second to prepare for it when someone cuts you off. You exit a plane at 2000 feet on a good day to do a hop and pop to prepare for a bailout when the plane's on fire. The people who just imagine doing these things, deciding not to expose themselves to the risks of crosswind landings, are not as well prepared for crosswind landings as people who actually do it.

This does not mean, of course, that you have to prepare for such emergencies, that you have to learn to land your canopy crosswind or learn to judge altitude by sight alone. After you graduate, all those things are up to the jumper to decide if he wants to learn them or not. It is my opinion that a jumper who can fly his canopy in all regimes of flight and all modes of landing, who can judge his altitude without instruments or reminders, and who practices his emergency procedures by doing them (via a cutaway rig) is a better (and safer) skydiver than one who does not prepare for these events, or does simulated preparation only. Feel free to disagree. In the end, all that matters is what the jumper thinks.

>Your post reminds me of an "old-school" skydivers saying. "If you can't
> convince them with the facts, baffle them with BS". I guess we can all
>consider ourselves "baffled" by that three page post.

Feel free to call my opinion bullshit (you needn't abbreviate it out of political correctness) and feel free to believe that pretend experience doing something is just as good as actual experience. I will continue to say what I believe to be true, despite newer jumpers who feel all that old-school stuff is nonsense. After all, modern skydiving was invented shortly after 1990, according to at least one post on the topic. How can us old time jumpers have anything to say in such a new and dynamic sport?


(This post was edited by billvon on Sep 15, 2003, 10:41 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Sep 15, 2003, 10:20 PM
Post #39 of 155 (1686 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

> I have both soloed an airplane and jumped without an AAD.
>I don't believe there is the slightest resemblance between the experiences.

Never said they were the same. That's why I put "solo" in quotes.

There was a very strong resemblance between my first SL jump and my first solo. I was scared in both cases, knew I had to know my shit in both cases, and did it in both cases. Afterwards I felt about the same sense of accomplishment. Nowadays that resemblance is often greatly watered down, with the progression from tandem to AFF to coach jumps to solos with an AAD. Very few people leave the door of an airplane on a tandem thinking about decision altitudes, landing patterns and malfunctions.

>I certainly do not believe that making jumps without an AAD made me
>a better or more confident skydiver in any way.

To someone who does not rely on an AAD, it makes no difference if you're wearing one or not. To someone who relies very heavily on their AAD, that jump without one would be a very big deal.


craddock  (D 22750)

Sep 16, 2003, 5:35 AM
Post #40 of 155 (1664 views)
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Re: [turnlow] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Personally, I don't see the logic in jumping without an AAD. I think of it akin people who did not like airbags or antilock brakes

I can stop my F150 faster in wet snowy conditions with my antilock brakes disconected. No question about it. Just one reason why I do not like them. They are great for a large percentage of drivers, but not for everyone.

Josh


Blahr

Sep 16, 2003, 5:38 AM
Post #41 of 155 (1661 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've heard several people say things to the effect of "I'm not going to do something dangerous to make some dumb point!" I think that misses the point.

I am one of the guys that made this statement. Although I have only 57 jumps, about the last 40 of them were with no AAD, no RSL, and a round reserve. Not old school, but maybe middle aged school? I also did the static line method being too poor for AFF. Radio didnt work on the very first one. JM told me afterwards that I obviously didnt need it so I was signed off radio from jump #1.
I think I went solo.

The point I was trying to make with the quotes statement is that if its available to me, I'm not gonna go without it just to prove to someone else that I'm not too dependant on it.
I know what its there for. Its there for that one jump in ten thousand (or more) where I am somehow incapapacitated and unable to open my parachute.
In that situation, I certainly DO depend on it to save my sorry ass. Thats what its for.
If I couldnt afford one, I'd go back to jumping without it as I have for most of my jumps.

I dont think I missed the point. I believe that I have nailed it on the head. Cool


(This post was edited by Blahr on Sep 16, 2003, 5:46 AM)


dterrick  (B 5079)

Sep 16, 2003, 8:13 AM
Post #42 of 155 (1632 views)
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Re: [craddock] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I can stop my F150 faster in wet snowy conditions with my antilock brakes disconected. No question about it. Just one reason why I do not like them. They are great for a large percentage of drivers, but not for everyone.

Aahhhhh, THANKYOU Josh. Here's my 'in' on the thread for what it's worth.... I've read the thread and all its dissenting opinions and I'm about to introduce 'think for themselves' cars into the fray: "Technology" is allowing people to get away with a lower standard of care in the automobile world. For example:

ABS was originally developped to keep airplanes from skidding on icy runways by the British in the late 50's. Not a bad safety feature in that application. However the modern driver now only needs HAMMER on the brakes as hard as you can to stop in a straight line. Under MOST circumstances this is also the shortest stopping distance. You even manage to maintain directional control, as opposed to losing it with wheels locked.

"Mama SUV driver" (please allow the stereotype for a moment) who is yakking on the cell phone or distracted by the kids in the back will now have the capability of plowing into the back of the car ahead WITOHOUT the brakes locked ... becasue she was not in proper care and control of her vehicle and failed to maintain adequate following distance. "Testosterone Joe", on the other hand, will likely plow in because he was speeding and, ABS or not, was gonna get it no matter what.

The police no longer have skid marks as evidence since ABS doesn't leave them.

Distraction from the circumstance(s) is the key in so many accidents - it's not a whole lot different than losing altitude awareness (distrction) or speeding (head-down, too late breakoff) - except in that the consequence in skydiving is almost certain death.

***

Traction control, likewise, keeps people from unintnetional directional changes during acceleration. It also prevents INTENTIONAL directional changes via traction modification. Imagine an 'anti-sideslide' button in RW. What if you need to perform one and can perform it flawlessly? What if you couldn't turn this 'feature' off? You no longer have the needed control and are as helpless as the person who never had the control. The answer is in TRAINING and PRACTISE. Maybe this traction control on/off button is like the switch on your Cypres?

If I'm driving on a gravel road and I aproach a corner too fast the correct technique to bleed speed is called a 'reverse slide'. It's a rally technique and allows a far faster speed through a corner under thee circumstances. You first PITCH the car in the opposite direction you want to go and then pendulum it back in the originally intended direction. So let's say that I turned the traction control off and the ABS off, then I blew the manouver and wound up in the trees with a bent car anyway. Am I better or worse off than "Mama SUV driver" who would have just gone stright off the end of the road? IS there any difference? Methinks this is similar to the options of go low - decide-act versus go low - pitch main- have 2 out. One requires a conscious effort and action, the other only a reaction.


When I got off student status my very next jump was on my BEER rig - an old Racer with a Raven main and Stellar reserve ... NO RSL, NO AAD. I'm still jumping it and it's much like my old sports cars with no ABS, traction control, or air bags. My instruction on the conversion? ...

"It's ALL up to you now Dave ... don't forget to pull" Shocked

I'll own a Cypres when I have the money to step up to a new FF friendly container at the same time. I don't expect that to be real soon but I plan to continue to jump, ever mindful of the consequences of my actions. Each weekend I take my life in my own hands and that makes me feel so alive ... yet I never think anything of the lack of an AAD.

-Dave


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Sep 16, 2003, 9:46 AM
Post #43 of 155 (1610 views)
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Re: [Blahr] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>The point I was trying to make with the quotes statement is that if
> its available to me, I'm not gonna go without it just to prove to
> someone else that I'm not too dependant on it.

If you're trying to prove something to someone else, that's a useless effort; it's not their life. The only person you have to prove anything to is _you._

>If I couldnt afford one, I'd go back to jumping without it as I have
>for most of my jumps.

Then, by definition, you have no problems with AAD dependence.

>I dont think I missed the point. I believe that I have nailed it on the head.

There ya go!


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 16, 2003, 10:06 AM
Post #44 of 155 (1604 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
People do not drive in a dangerous manner, or create hazards conditions on the road around other drivers in order to "test" their ability to survive without insurance or an airbag.

Do you think, J.E. ...That on the other hand, that instead of an airbag sitting there on their steering wheels though, that let's say several razor-sharp tines were protruding, just waiting to skewer/impale them instead, that some of these errant and otherwise distracted drivers might actually instead, drive just a little more attentively & CAREFULLY maybe even??

Sometimes a more imminent and imposing, downright intimate knowledge of the absolute dire consequences of one's actions, unprotected, can be a better control and potential deterrent than that certainly of better "insurance" and "protection".

Just some devils advocate food for thought.
Blue Skies,
-Grant


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 16, 2003, 11:33 AM
Post #45 of 155 (1578 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
People do not drive in a dangerous manner, or create hazards conditions on the road around other drivers in order to "test" their ability to survive without insurance or an airbag.

Do you think, J.E. ...That on the other hand, that instead of an airbag sitting there on their steering wheels though, that let's say several razor-sharp tines were protruding, just waiting to skewer/impale them instead, that some of these errant and otherwise distracted drivers might actually instead, drive just a little more attentively & CAREFULLY maybe even??


Blue Skies,
-Grant

If that were the case, I'd stop and do whatever it took to remove the tines before driving on. The tines might affect my driving but not the driving of the drunks etc. who are out there.

I think your argument would be better applied to "would you pack more carefully if you didn't have a reserve?"


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Sep 16, 2003, 3:15 PM
Post #46 of 155 (1547 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll admit I agree with Billvon and the older guys. The biggest point of emphasis is that if you wouldn't do a jump without a Cypres, you shouldn't do it with one. Whether its a big-way, freeflying, or whatever - if you wouldn't feel comfortable doing it without one, you should think long and hard about whether you should do it with one.

My personal anectdote - a few years ago I went out with a friend on old-timey gear. The belly-mount reserve was older than I was, and everything was freshly repacked. I spotted and jumped out with a friend. He pulled at 7k like planned, but when I went to pull I couldn't find the ripcord. It had come out of its pocket and was floating, and while I searched extensively for it I couldn't find mine. I remember thinking as I was going through 5k that "Wow - old, somewhat unfamiliar gear, no AAD, no RSL - whether I live or die is completely and absolutely up to me."

I ended up dumping out the belly-mount reserve after flipping over on my back. And that - out of 3300 jumps - remains my favorite and most empowering jump that I have ever done.

W


jumper03  (D License)

Sep 16, 2003, 5:44 PM
Post #47 of 155 (1522 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll admit I agree with Billvon and the older guys. The biggest point of emphasis is that if you wouldn't do a jump without a Cypres, you shouldn't do it with one. Whether its a big-way, freeflying, or whatever - if you wouldn't feel comfortable doing it without one, you should think long and hard about whether you should do it with one.

Maybe I am weenie low time jumper then. Because I look at the above statement and think the same argument can be made for reserves. After all, there are many people with 1000+ jumps that have never cut away. Why have it? Why spend the money on those repacks every 120 days?

I think the best thing that can be said at this point is that we are all responsible for our own safety. If you want to get on the plane without a reserve, or without a cypres, or without an RSL, fine by me. It's your life. But don't talk down to me because I won't.

Jump


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 16, 2003, 9:15 PM
Post #48 of 155 (1498 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

WinkBill,
We were doing so well there for a while..........
Quote:
Feel free to call my opinion bullshit (you needn't abbreviate it out of political correctness) and feel free to believe that pretend experience doing something is just as good as actual experience. I will continue to say what I believe to be true, despite newer jumpers who feel all that old-school stuff is nonsense. After all, modern skydiving was invented shortly after 1990, according to at least one post on the topic. How can us old time jumpers have anything to say in such a new and dynamic sport?

I don't do PC. Nor do I use vulgar language. Nor do you know what I believe or pretend. There lies (sp as intended) the problem.
On the basics, we agree. On your application to "solo", well, have another drink. As far as "us old time jumpers", we are still here, we must be doing something right, AAD or not. So, "just the facts Sir".
(We'll see how old you really are!)
We all have opinions of which we are free to express, and you do a fine job Bill, you must just be too poetic for us black and white guys. But of course, you don't believe in WMD's either????????????

Blues,

J.E.


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 16, 2003, 9:32 PM
Post #49 of 155 (1488 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileYou see Scrumpot, that is the problem. You are the devil!!!! Just kidding!!!!

You should have included Bill's quote that came before your edited quote.

Grant, you surely don't believe that your scenario is anything other than sarcasm do you? This just shows how ridiculous "opinions" become when it's a key board and not eye to eye.
Quote:
Sometimes a more imminent and imposing, downright intimate knowledge of the absolute dire consequences of one's actions, unprotected, can be a better control and potential deterrent than that certainly of better "insurance" and "protection".

So, how many skydivers do you know that do not understand that if you do not pull, you do not survive? Intimate knowledge or common sense?

Blues,

J.E.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 6:35 AM
Post #50 of 155 (1458 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So, how many skydivers do you know that do not understand that if you do not pull, you do not survive? Intimate knowledge or common sense?

In real terms actually, I see quite a few skydivers who I do NOT think consider the consequences of their actions at all. Sure, we all "know" that if we don't pull we're goin' in (unless you have one of those fancy doo-dad Cypres thingy's on your back ready to go FOR YOU that is Wink). So many have tried to make it all, if not in reality, then in their minds at least somehow "antiseptic". How many young jumpers do you hear around the DZ today saying things to their whuffo friends who they've brought out, things like: "what I'm about to do is SAFER than our drive home afterwards is gonna be" (etc.)? BULLSHIT! Our sport is an "extreme" one, with very dire consequences looming for those that don't respect it & fuck up -PERIOD. Too many people lately it seems have indeed lost a REAL grasp on that, and way too often the glossing-over attitudes of "it always happens to the other guy, it will never happen to me" shove it down, supress it, rather than FACE IT & DEAL WITH IT seems to prevail.

A real, tangible respect for what they are doing? Actually, that's precisely my point J.E.
No sir, I see plenty of jumpers out here today who in fact do NOT have that at all.


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 6:37 AM
Post #51 of 155 (930 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, how many skydivers do you know that do not understand that if you do not pull, you do not survive?
Intimate knowledge or common sense?

They are out there...the CYPRES will save them. They KNOW it will. One has been saved twice that I personally know.

These are the people I have issues with...And Wendy said it just fine...don't do with a CYPRES a jump that you would not do without it. THATS Saftey, not buying a cool neat'o' toy.

And if you will not jump without a CYPRES, that is device dependency....I will freely admit I depend on my reserve to be there *most* of the time.

First people need to admit they are dependent...Then they need to look at why. Then they should take steps to reduce that dependency.

Scared you will get knocked out? Don't go on zoo loads. Learn about things like A/C can have low tails when at high power and climbing. Don't go on bigger loads than you would feel safe without the CYPRES. Try to avoid jumping freefly with people known to cork, or people of unkown or dubious skill levels.

Scared you will loose altitude awareness? Learn how to judge altitude by sight. Don't do Freefly jumps till you are comfertable with the basic life saving portion of skydiving.

Scared you will not be able to handle it when "it" hits the fan? Practice, practice, practice, Train, train, train your Emergency procedures. Do an intentional cutaway on a tersh rig. Get into the hanging harnes and drill, drill, drill.

These are safe, and show you are safe...Or that at least you are trying to be...

Just buying a CYPRES does not make you safe. I DO know people who think it does....It gives you a second chance to hug the people that are important in your life.

A CYPRES fire is a big deal...You screwed up badly and most likley should be dead. Unfortunatly some people don't think this way. Some see it just like a reserve ride (Which by the way I don't just think of it as "just a reserve ride").
And this number is growing, and will grow more since modern AAD's are much more reliable than ever before.

I think a CYPRES is a good thing, but the attitude that is growing about them is not.

Don't do things with them that you would not do without one.

And that is my last post on it.


(This post was edited by Ron on Sep 17, 2003, 6:39 AM)


Alambic

Sep 17, 2003, 7:02 AM
Post #52 of 155 (923 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

And that is my last post on it.

Will it be your very last? or will be a last like the 1524 times you said you were quitting the discussion? ;-)

Now reading over and over this discussion I understand your point of view, and I just noticed that the same reasoning of "would I do a jump with so many people if I hadn't a Cypres", is the same as "would I jump with this packing I just ended when they were yelling at me to get on the plane, if I hadn't a reserve"...
And it seems to me that all the skydivers I know have done inconsciently this type of bad reasoning one day or another. (being aware of it or not)...

Now where I can t understand your (or Bill's or others that have similar ones) reosoning, is on the link you're doing on this fact (people getting tolerant on their own safety relying on devices), and dependency... Can t you just admit that there may be different reasons to chose to always jump with AAD, and that there are good and bad reasons to do it... I think on this thread and other ones on the subject almost all the oposition you have had is on this statement "Every person that refuse to jump without Cypres is relying too much on it", while many agree on "Cypres isn t a good reason to lower your safety standards".

You say "never do a jump with Cypres you wouldn t do without Cypres"... And I say "I chose not to jump without Cypres, because Cypres exists, but I commit to never accept I jump I wouldn t have accepted if I had jumped in the pre-Cypres era"... you don t have to actually jump without the cypres to think like that...


jumper03  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 7:33 AM
Post #53 of 155 (914 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Ron,
I do hope that wasn't your last post because I'm getting a lot out of this discussion.

But I do have to ask the question now - why do you have a cypres in your rig? If you have absolute faith in your training, experience and abilities, why have it and deal with the hassle of battery replacement, service, etc. ?

Thanks,
Jump


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 7:59 AM
Post #54 of 155 (909 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally don't have a problem with jumping without a Cypress as stated, its just nice having one in case bad things happen to my head rendering me unconscious.

I wouldn't have a problem jumping if it was off, but luckily, I'm a freak in morning on my first gear check and check it three times upon arrival on the DZ.


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 8:51 AM
Post #55 of 155 (896 views)
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Re: [jumper03] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Ron,
I do hope that wasn't your last post because I'm getting a lot out of this discussion.

It does not look like anyone will let me.

In reply to:
But I do have to ask the question now - why do you have a cypres in your rig? If you have absolute faith in
your training, experience and abilities, why have it and deal with the hassle of battery replacement, service,
etc. ?

I only paid 600.00 bucks for it new. I bought it at the request of a very good friend of mine. (In fact he paid the other 600.00 for it).

It is a very good back up, and if you look at all of my posts my issue is not with the CYPRES, but rather the attitude it fosters.

I don't like to hear things like "It's OK, I have a CYPRES, so I can do it" Or "My CYPRES will save me".

And I don't like the fact that there are more and more people that buy one and think that it makes them safe.

Or that more and more people depend on them but pretend they don't.

I don't like how people will do things with them that they would not think of doing without one.

Back before the CYPRES was popular, we sat around and fiqured out the ways that we could get killed in this sport...We studied how others got hurt or killed to prevent it from happening to us.

Nowadays there are a large number of "Newbie" jumpers that show up, do AFF in a week, buy new color matched gear and they put more thought in the color of the pop top, than why they got an AAD or RSL.

Since it has been invented the CYPRES has saved several people...But most of these "Saves" are due to a skydiver really just screwing up, not being knocked out which is why most jumpers say they have them. They say that since its the "cool" reason to have one, or the reason they were told why others have them. Again not thinking about it, but just being a parrot and saying what they heard...

Anyone that has actually looked at the CYPRES saves page will see that very few were actually knocked out. Most were just simple fatal screwups.

Now Im glad that these people are not dead, but they really did screw up and need to look at why, not just replace the cutter and get on the next load.

Better yet, realize that they are dependant on them (The best way to do this is ask yourself if you would jump without one) and find out why you feel you need it. Then try to fix what it is that makes them feel dependent.

Even better, find out the hundreds of ways to get killed in this sport and don't do those jumps even if you have a CYPRES.

Looking back to the post that started this whole mess. Someone left a plane that has a low tail that was at max power and in a climbing configuration. Now I knew that this is risking a tail strike...Since it has happend many times before. This person didn't...Why? There was a fatality just two years ago due to this. How did they not know? And why were they the only person on a plane load to hit the tail?

The answer is that they never were told about it , or she never read about it. Now why is that?

The answer is the attitude that is being grown by a reliable AAD and the reports of the saves...You read this and think "Man it was lucky they had an AAD!" or "Thats why people should have an AAD!"

I read it and ask why she hit her head. Now I am glad she did have an AAD, but why did she hit her head in the first place?

See the difference in the thinking?

And then I get jumped for asking why she was the only one to hit her head and KNOCK HERSELF OUT insted of me just singing the praises of the magic black box.

The lession here is not to jump with an AAD, but to use your head to minimize the chances of needing to be saved by one.

Same thing with loss of altitude awareness. A guy says he went low and the first piece of advice he gets is "Get an audible"....I tell him to learn how to tell altitude with his eyes so he can jump without an altimeter, and learn that a new device is not the answer. "I didn't hear my Pro Track", "My Altimeter Broke" are not a good reasons to go low.

Why do I jump an AAD (Or even an Altimeter, Helmet, Audible)?

Simple, I can fuck up and die, you can fuck up and kill me. I'd rather not die, so I plan dives that are safe, THEN I try to jump with the saftey gear that I thought about before just strapping it on. I know both the good and bad of every piece of gear I use...Do you?

Ron


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 9:05 AM
Post #56 of 155 (890 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

"Nowadays there are a large number of "Newbie" jumpers that show up, do AFF in a week, buy new color matched gear and they put more thought in the color of the pop top, than why they got an AAD or RSL."

Sooooooooooooooooo true.

Very well put Ron - although, with my bad history of getting hit in the head, I honestly use that as my main argument for having a Cypress. I'm not very afraid of getting knocked out in freefall primarily because I plan my jumps with people I know most of the time (95% of the time in fact).

So true about altitude and going low as well. I find it funny when someone freaks out about not having an alti of any type, learn to use your eyes morons.

Relying on a Cypress is a bad move that will shorten one's life span. Relying on an avalanche beacon is quite similar. Rely on knowledge and awareness to keep yourselves safe in a given environment as mechanical shit fails. Eyes don't fail, senses do not fail, knowledge doesn't fail.

IMHO - I don't see why someone would do a poised exit on an emergency exit anyways. Get the f^&* out of the plane as fast as possible, i.e. dive out and down. I think that was the first mistake - doing a poised exit. I've gone over that scenario time and time again in my own head - if the pilot tells me to get the hell out of the plane, I'm diving out, not wasting any time. If she did that, she would've been fine.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 9:21 AM
Post #57 of 155 (884 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>So, how many skydivers do you know that do not understand that if
> you do not pull, you do not survive? Intimate knowledge or common
> sense?

I have met at least five so far. Two pointed out that they had cypreses, and thus if they did not pull they WOULD survive. I don't know why the third one didn't pull. She just gave up and waited for someone else to open a parachute for her. Good thing she had a cypres so she can continue jumping without fear of dying!


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 9:36 AM
Post #58 of 155 (878 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to jump out of airplanes period.

That last chick wouldn't know what was happening if someone held a gun to her head Crazy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Sep 17, 2003, 9:37 AM
Post #59 of 155 (876 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to jump out of airplanes period.

I agree, but nowadays they can just buy this cypres thing . . .


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 9:43 AM
Post #60 of 155 (874 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

HAH SlyLaugh

At a loss for words as you've summed things up nicely Bill LOLOLOL!!!


hookitt  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 10:20 AM
Post #61 of 155 (862 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
HAH SlyLaugh

At a loss for words as you've summed things up nicely Bill LOLOLOL!!!

You mean that's the end of the debate?


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 10:28 AM
Post #62 of 155 (855 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to jump out of airplanes period.

I agree, but nowadays they can just buy this cypres thing . . .

How do you describe the 25 people who died from no/low pull in the USA in 1989 (the good ol' pre-CYPRES days, when all skydivers accepted reponsibility for themselves).


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Sep 17, 2003, 10:28 AM
Post #63 of 155 (855 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And if you will not jump without a CYPRES, that is device dependency

I've actually had my opinion changed in a different direction in a small way by this thread (well, this one or one of the other 17 simultaneous ones)

Mary posted that she will not jump without a Cypres for personal reasons -- mother of two kids who have already lost a parent. She's made an intellectual decision based on factors outside her control. That's an excellent reason. Really. And I doubt she's using it because she's not really convinced shit happens.

Wendy W.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 10:33 AM
Post #64 of 155 (849 views)
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Quote:
Looking back to the post that started this whole mess. Someone left a plane that has a low tail that was at max power and in a climbing configuration. Now I knew that this is risking a tail strike...Since it has happend many times before. This person didn't...Why? There was a fatality just two years ago due to this. How did they not know? And why were they the only person on a plane load to hit the tail?

The answer is that they never were told about it , or she never read about it. Now why is that?

Because she was saved by her Cypres (not a bad thing ...and I am NOT disparaging that, before anybody jumps on me!) ...and now as a result, that is ALL anybody wants to apparently talk about. Forget about learning (and maybe hopefully either her, or somebody else in the future maybe AVOIDING this scenario/potential incident altogether). Even bring it up, and get accused of being "critical" of the jumper for even being saved in the first place!! Crazy

Peolpe need to learn how to separate the 2. Being "critical" and examining the actions which led up to the event, are how we (and others) LEARN from it. Otherwise, this jumper (and others) would not be allowed to even have that OPPORTUNITY at all (oh -ooh ...don't say anything to her ...so, she was saved by her Cypres ---so long as she wasn't a danger to others -also arguable btw- who cares? I think was the paraphrase), which in reality would be the biggest DISSERVICE OF ALL IMHO.

Blue Skies all,
-Grant


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 10:35 AM
Post #65 of 155 (844 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>How do you describe the 25 people who died from no/low pull in the USA in 1989?

How would I describe them? They're still dead. Not pulling is less fatal (and less scary) nowadays.


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 10:47 AM
Post #66 of 155 (838 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

A real, tangible respect for what they are doing? Actually, that's precisely my point J.E.
No sir, I see plenty of jumpers out here today who in fact do NOT have that at all.

Some data from USPA:

Year Low/no pull fatalities USPA members
1989 25 18484
1999 2 35000+

Median no. of jumps of USPA members <250

25 people died in the USA in 1989 from low or no pull (USPA stats). Since this was before CYPRES we must conclude that they didn't fit your characterization above, so they DID have a real tangible respect for what they were doing. How then, do you explain their deaths?

At least 17500 USPA members in 1999 could be considered "newbies", corrupted by the evil CYPRES and having bad attitudes towards safety. How come only 2 fatalities from this undeserving device dependent bunch?


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:00 AM
Post #67 of 155 (831 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you are missing the point quite frankly. The point is not to become dependent on something that doesn't replace actions.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:08 AM
Post #68 of 155 (827 views)
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Quote:
These are the people I have issues with...And Wendy said it just fine...don't do with a CYPRES a jump that you would not do without it. THATS Saftey, not buying a cool neat'o' toy.

Why is this any different then a reserve?

Why don't we jump base gear, because we shouldn't need our reserves if we learned to pack properly. Clearly, if we're depending on our reserves, we shouldn't be skydiving because we don't trust our pack jobs. Learn to pack and ditch your reserve!

I'll say it again, trust in our equipment is inherent in the sport. Criticising someone for it is meaningless and ludicrous.

_Am


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 11:08 AM
Post #69 of 155 (826 views)
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In reply to:
At least 17500 USPA members in 1999 could be considered "newbies", corrupted by the evil CYPRES and
having bad attitudes towards safety. How come only 2 fatalities from this undeserving device dependent
bunch?

Simple the stupid little device saved them.


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 11:11 AM
Post #70 of 155 (823 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is this any different then a reserve?

Reserve you did something...
CYPRES you did nothing.

I don't like the Im safe I have a CYPRES attitude that some of the "CYPRES Gereration" have. They should learn to use their brains not a device to save them.

You want more info read my other posts

I am truely done here..


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:11 AM
Post #71 of 155 (826 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is this any different then a reserve?
Because a reserve is required by the FAA. An AAD is not.


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:11 AM
Post #72 of 155 (825 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think you are missing the point quite frankly. The point is not to become dependent on something that doesn't replace actions.

But if depending on the device instead of relying on actions saves a bunch of lives, why do you object so strongly? Do you think they DESERVE to die?


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:13 AM
Post #73 of 155 (824 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think you are missing the point quite frankly. The point is not to become dependent on something that doesn't replace actions.

Saving lives is missing the point? I think it is YOU that misses the point.

The people you despise are doing a better job of staying alive that the ones you admire.


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:16 AM
Post #74 of 155 (823 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Why is this any different then a reserve?

Reserve you did something...
CYPRES you did nothing.

I don't like the Im safe I have a CYPRES attitude that some of the "CYPRES Gereration" have. They should learn to use their brains not a device to save them.

You want more info read my other posts

I am truely done here..

25 people that relied on their brains died in 1989 'cos they didn't pull in time. Good job someone invented that "stupid" device.


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 11:22 AM
Post #75 of 155 (817 views)
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In reply to:
25 people that relied on their brains died in 1989 'cos they didn't pull in time. Good job someone invented
that "stupid" device.

And John if you pay attention you would see I like the device, but I don't like how people treat it.

How they use it to do more dangerous things insted of training and thinking safely...

But you argue every thing, so why should this be different?


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:47 AM
Post #76 of 155 (871 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess where this is a Cypres (entitled) thread, that is fair. And in actuality, I have no argument with the Cypres being available, as a potentially life-saving device at all. In fact, I myself have one in my very own rig. Will I still jump without one however? Yes, I will, and have.

My comments regarding having a tangible respect for ones own actions, and their potential consequences, applies (again) instead to the event that lead up to (causing) the cypres fire in the first place!

Am I glad the Cypres was there? - YES
Am I glad that it actually WORKED too? - ABSOLUTELY!

However, and as we've even seen as clearly evidenced in several of these threads is the attitude of "let's just leave it at that". ...And THAT professor, is what I am saying is WRONG (a disservice I think is what my earlier word was). Do you disagree with that?

What if next time the automatic activation DEVICE fails?? ---Or is not turned on, or is not even there (for those that choose to jump without).

Taking away from the event KNOWLEDGE to potentially prevent this event's recurrance in the 1st place, in COMBINATION with understanding the reasonings behind one's own personal CHOICE to have an AAD (or not) is what I am striving for. ...Unreasonable?


jumper03  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 11:56 AM
Post #77 of 155 (866 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron asked me to share a PM I sent to him regarding this thread...

Hi Ron,
Well I can honestly say that after all your posts I now understand your side of the debate. And I do agree that hoping the cypres will save you is no match for doing your E. procedures. I will pull all handles availabe if able.

However, for the time being, if I don't have an AAD I won't jump. Maybe that'll change in a 1000 more jumps, I don't know.

Thanks for taking the time to post your side of the debate.

Steven


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 11:57 AM
Post #78 of 155 (864 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply
IMHO - I don't see why someone would do a poised exit on an emergency exit anyways. Get the f^&* out of the plane as fast as possible, i.e. dive out and down. I think that was the first mistake - doing a poised exit. I've gone over that scenario time and time again in my own head - if the pilot tells me to get the hell out of the plane, I'm diving out, not wasting any time. If she did that, she would've been fine.
Just as a note to this - if you practice head-high exits regularly (I've got 1500 CRW jumps) you can exit stable head high just as fast as people can dive out. I'm in a better position for deployment too - but like anything else - you can't do it fast unless you've practiced it. A couple of years ago we had an Otter with an engine problem and the pilot asked us to leave at about 1300 feet - I wouldn't particularly want to be diving out at that altitude...
W


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 12:12 PM
Post #79 of 155 (861 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't object to anything. Read what I typed.

LOLOLOL

Issues. Large Ones.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 12:13 PM
Post #80 of 155 (860 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

BTW - I HAVE a CYPRESS in my rig and wouldn't have it any other way. You are so quick to jump down someones throat though that you did miss my point obviously.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 12:15 PM
Post #81 of 155 (872 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm - high headed exit isn't a poised exit as it was described in the other thread. I do agree with you - you can get out quick, relative to the wind (just like you dogs know how).

Heck, now that you said that though, I may reconsider diving out below 2000 feet, becuase I hear what you are saying. I'm just not going to setup a poised exit cuz that takes time.

Thanks for the tip faulknerwn...


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Sep 17, 2003, 12:59 PM
Post #82 of 155 (858 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't like the Im safe I have a CYPRES attitude that some of the "CYPRES Gereration" have. They should learn to use their brains not a device to save them.

Again, I ask why is this different then a reserve. I'll even use your words: "They should use their brains (and pack their main properly) not a device (reserve parachute) to save them."

Is the only reason we use a reserve because the FAA requires us to? If it weren't for the FAR's, would you have the same feelings towards one?

Again, gear dependency is inherent in the sport. I do not understand criticising someone for accepting it.

_Am


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 17, 2003, 1:15 PM
Post #83 of 155 (852 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

He isn't criticising anyone for using a Cypress - he is criticising people who put themselves in situations that they normally wouldn't because they have one. Plain and simple.

However, you do present a good argument, but imho, it doesn't hold water because of the fact that there are many many more factors in getting a good canopy above one's head after a skydive. There are many outside factors that can affect getting a good open canopy, especially nowadays with HP canopies.

I have to agree with Ron on this one - if someone's Cypress pops, most likely they did one or more things wrong to get themselves into that situation. The Cypress save we are all talking about today could've been prevented had the person had the proper amount of knowledge to deal with the emergency exit. I am grateful she shared her story, because I learned from it and will bet anyone, the same thing won't happen to me.

The one thing always taught in avalanche courses out by me is DO NOT EVER rely on any piece of equipment to get you home safely after a day in the backcountry. Only knowledge will reduce the risks as much as possible.

All Ron is saying is that people (not everyone, but certainly a few) take safety for granted in this sport when they have a Cypress on their backs and they shouldn't. People freak out when they forget their alti's, but with the proper knowledge and with practice, no one should need an alti of any type.

I never rely on the fact that I wear an avalanche beacon while in the backcountry to save me - 99 times out of a 100 if someone is locating my beacon, I put myself in a bad situation from the get go that I should've said no to. I never rely on the fact that I have a Cypress in my kit to save myself. Again, if it pops my reserve for me, 99 times out of a 100, I made one or more mistakes to get myself into that situation and I need to seriously sit my ass down and think things over before getting back on the next load.

I think we can all agree that a Cypress is a wonderful thing to have, sure there are good reasons for not having one, but for the majority of jumpers out there, its a great addition to a kit. But hearing people say things like, "I'll be fine I have a Cypress" is not good. They are substituting knowledge with luck of the draw and it will bite them in the ass at one point or another as it usually happens with avalanches.

My 1 cent...


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 2:26 PM
Post #84 of 155 (841 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
25 people that relied on their brains died in 1989 'cos they didn't pull in time. Good job someone invented
that "stupid" device.

And John if you pay attention you would see I like the device, but I don't like how people treat it.

How they use it to do more dangerous things insted of training and thinking safely...

But you argue every thing, so why should this be different?

Regardless of everything you believe about people mistreating the "stupid" device, people are staying alive now that would have died 15 years ago.

That is the bottom line.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Sep 17, 2003, 2:31 PM
Post #85 of 155 (839 views)
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In reply to:
Regardless of everything you believe about people mistreating the "stupid" device, people are staying alive now that would have died 15 years ago. That is the bottom line.

And while we should question the person's ability to perform their emergency procedures, we shouldn't question their desire to use an AAD.


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 4:04 PM
Post #86 of 155 (821 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, I ask why is this different then a reserve. I'll even use your words: "They should use their brains (and pack their main properly) not a device (reserve parachute) to save them."

Is the only reason we use a reserve because the FAA requires us to? If it weren't for the FAR's, would you have the same feelings towards one?

Again, gear dependency is inherent in the sport. I do not understand criticising someone for accepting it.

Are you arguing just to argue?

It seems like it.

If a reserve is used without a CYPRES..YOU saved yourself. YOU were able to save yourself.

If a CYPRES saves you you did nothing. YOU DID NOTHNING to save yourself.

How hard is that to understand?

One way YOU saved your own life...The other you did nothing.

See the big difference?

One you did something...the other you did nothing.


Ron

Sep 17, 2003, 4:12 PM
Post #87 of 155 (819 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Regardless of everything you believe about people mistreating the "stupid" device, people are staying alive now that would have died 15 years ago.

That is the bottom line.

Gee your right John, I guess we should all get AAD's for our mains as well. Then there would be no chance of us ever getting killed!

No John,for a guy so smart you missed the point way to much.

While I like AAD's I don't like the attitude that some people take with them...But since its clear you just like to argue...Im done with you, yet AGAIN and your arguing ways.

Its a shame. You could actually help insted of being pain in the ass all the time.

But I guess its just the way you are huh?


(This post was edited by Ron on Sep 17, 2003, 4:26 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 17, 2003, 5:02 PM
Post #88 of 155 (805 views)
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In reply to:
[Im done with you, yet AGAIN and your arguing ways.

Promises promises. How many times have you said you were done with a discussion, only to come back?

I find it disturbing that you consider dealing with an attitude you don't like to be so important that it leads you to badmouth a proven way of saving lives.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 5:19 PM
Post #89 of 155 (802 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>And while we should question the person's ability to perform their
> emergency procedures, we shouldn't question their desire to use an
> AAD.

A guy shows up on a DZ. He has no altimeters. He can't judge altitude; he just pulls when everyone else pulls. You question him on this. "Hey, that's why I have an AAD!" he says.

You honestly wouldn't question his use of the AAD? I would.


skysquiffy

Sep 17, 2003, 5:35 PM
Post #90 of 155 (798 views)
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Quote:
A guy shows up on a DZ. He has no altimeters. He can't judge altitude; he just pulls when everyone else pulls. You question him on this. "Hey, that's why I have an AAD!" he says.

You honestly wouldn't question his use of the AAD? I would.

Any possibility that he was being facetious?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Sep 17, 2003, 5:53 PM
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Re: [skysquiffy] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>Any possibility that he was being facetious?

In my example, no.


pilotdave  (D License)

Sep 17, 2003, 6:27 PM
Post #92 of 155 (785 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

One dangerous idiot does not represent the majority of cypres users. I really don't like Ron's attitude. I would fully agree with him if I thought he was anywhere near right on the attitude most people have toward their cypreses. But I just don't see that. Yeah, he's a lot more experienced than I am, has seen a lot more people, and has a lot more info on the subject than I do. But from everything he writes, all I hear is "I'm a big macho guy that doesn't need to rely on anyone or anything else for my safety because I'm a great skydiver."

Ok, maybe for a small minority (or he'd argue a vast majority) of skydivers become so complacent due to the cypres that their emergency procedures are lacking. Are they really more likely to be killed than if they didn't have a cypres at all? More likely to have a cypres fire, that's for sure. But more likely to die? I seriously doubt it. So, as I think kallend has been pointing out, the cypres saves lives. I just can't see how anyone can argue it's a bad thing in general.

I've jumped a few times with my cypres off by mistake. I feel stupid when I realize it. I spent $1000 on that thing to save my life in the worst kind of emergency, and I turned it into a couple thousanths of a pound per square foot of wingloading. I've jumped with my visor open on my helmet twice. Felt pretty dumb for not checking all my gear before leaving the plane. But I've never found my chest strap open or misrouted, never forgotten to tighten my legstraps, never made any gigantic packing errors, etc. I know what's important for my survival. The fact that I have an AAD on my back HAS NO EFFECT on those things. I've had two pilot chutes in tow (neither ended in a reserve ride). When I realized something was wrong, my cypres sure as hell didn't cross my mind. I was thinking "I better get something above my head ASAP" (ok, that was after I was thinking "shit shit shit!!!!").

And I don't think my attitude toward my cypres is unusual. I simply don't see people skydiving more dangerously because they have cypreses. Again, maybe Ron has seen a lot of that. What I haven't heard from Ron is ANY evidence. He's got all the same stories as all the other old guys I've heard from. Give me a GOOD reason to lose my cypres. I'm waiting to hear "It'll make you a better skydiver." I don't believe that for a second, but even if it's true, I'd rather survive that one jump where I really need the cypres.

And Ron, you can come out of cypres debate retirement for one more... Tongue

Dave


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Sep 17, 2003, 7:27 PM
Post #93 of 155 (773 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A guy shows up on a DZ. He has no altimeters. He can't judge altitude; he just pulls when everyone else pulls. You question him on this. "Hey, that's why I have an AAD!" he says.

You honestly wouldn't question his use of the AAD? I would.

I don't know where you are trying to go with this. The example you sight sounds like an extreme case and this person is obviously not one of the safer skydivers around and likely has too much reliance on their AAD.

I agree that people need to jump with their AADs as if they weren't there. But there is a reason why these devices were created in the first place and that is to save lives. If one person starts having multiple AAD firings, then maybe there is a serious problem which needs to be addressed. It seems as if people sight extreme examples just to make their point. But for the vast majority of the AAD users, I doubt these extreme arguments have any merit.

Where is this debate going?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 7:50 PM
Post #94 of 155 (769 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>Ok, maybe for a small minority (or he'd argue a vast majority) of
> skydivers become so complacent due to the cypres that their
> emergency procedures are lacking. Are they really more likely to be
> killed than if they didn't have a cypres at all? More likely to have a
> cypres fire, that's for sure. But more likely to die? I seriously doubt
> it. So, as I think kallend has been pointing out, the cypres saves
> lives. I just can't see how anyone can argue it's a bad thing in
> general.

I agree. The saving of lives is good; the increased reliance on a mechanical device is bad. A jumper who relies on their cypres and uses one religiously, and participates in dangerous activities, is more likely to live than a jumper who does not use a cypres and participates in dangerous activities. Of course, a jumper who uses a cypres, does not rely on it, and also does _not_ participate in dangerous activities is the safest of all. Over the past 12 years or so I have seen the first category increase greatly and the last category decrease a similar amount.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 17, 2003, 7:59 PM
Post #95 of 155 (766 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>I don't know where you are trying to go with this. The example you
> sight sounds like an extreme case and this person is obviously not
> one of the safer skydivers around and likely has too much reliance
> on their AAD.

So you WOULD question their desire to use an AAD to make jumping safe enough for them to do it. Just clearing that up.

>But for the vast majority of the AAD users, I doubt these extreme
>arguments have any merit.

There are three classes of AAD users.

The first jumps as if he has no backup in the form of an AAD; clearly no problem there.

The second jumps only because he has an AAD to back up his (questionable) ability to pull. Clearly a problem, and definitely a minority.

The third group uses a cypres and takes slightly greater chances than they would than if they did not have one. Perhaps it's to get on a 20-way before they've done a 12-way; perhaps it's a willingness to do a head-down with someone they haven't jumped with before. These people worry me, because I believe that there are a lot of them and very few of them accept that they do it. I don't worry that they will die so much as worry that they are simply depending way too much on a mechanical device.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Sep 17, 2003, 9:29 PM
Post #96 of 155 (754 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Are you arguing just to argue?

No, nor do I have a history of that. I'm arguing because you sound like an old fart who thinks that only people with "the right stuff(tm)" should be skydiving.

Quote:
If a reserve is used without a CYPRES..YOU saved yourself. YOU were able to save yourself.

If a CYPRES saves you you did nothing. YOU DID NOTHNING to save yourself.

In looking at this for three seconds, I can come up with 8 different scenarios which end with a cypres activation. In only one of them, was "doing nothing" a cause. If you really think that the only cause of a Cypres fire is "doing nothing", then I think you don't understand how it works.

Quote:
One way YOU saved your own life...The other you did nothing.
Or did everything you could, and couldn't get it done. This is the more likely case.

Quote:
See the big difference?
Not the slightest.

Granted that I've only been around here for 4 years, but I've never seen anybody have a Cypres fire because they did nothing. I've seen 4 fire for very good reasons. I've never seen anyone be non-chalant about a Cypres fire.

I'm not saying there never has been someone, but if in 4 years I've never seen a single one, there can't be that many of them, certainly not enough of them to warant a thread like this.

_Am


Deuce  (D 25597)

Sep 18, 2003, 12:13 AM
Post #97 of 155 (744 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

BIll, I agree completely with your argument.

I have Cypres's in both my rigs. I depend on them not at all. I will be supremely embarassed if they save me. And I willl buy beer.

I've had two reserve rides, neither has been proximity induced. My Cypres is for a f*ckup. Plain and simple. A Cypres fire is a mistake. So is a house fire. Insurance is a good thing.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Sep 18, 2003, 4:05 AM
Post #98 of 155 (738 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice post.

I'm with you 100%.

t


Ron

Sep 18, 2003, 4:12 AM
Post #99 of 155 (737 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But from everything he writes, all I hear is "I'm a
big macho guy that doesn't need to rely on anyone or anything else for my safety because I'm a great
skydiver."

You seem to missing the point...

If you skydive to survive which means not doing jumps that you have a chance of getting hurt or requiring any device thats not NEEDED to save you (CYPRES for going low, Audible to prevent you from going low RSL to prevent you from cutting away wil no reserve pull,ect)..... Then you are a safe skydiver.

Now ADD and CYPRES, helmet, Audible, and RSL (if you wish).
Thats safe. Just these cool toys don't make you safe, and never will. They are there to help you..But don't rely on them. They all fail.

And as for me being macho...I turned down the 300 way since I would not have done it if I didn't have a CYPRES, I turned down the 2 pt 120 way, I don't freefly, don't jump a wingsuit, Don't jump a pocket rocket canopy anymore...yeah this all screams machismo....The fact is I see the danger areas then AVOID them the best I can.

In reply to:
And I don't think my attitude toward my cypres is unusual. I simply don't see people skydiving more
dangerously because they have cypreses. Again, maybe Ron has seen a lot of that. What I haven't heard
from Ron is ANY evidence. He's got all the same stories as all the other old guys I've heard from.

Ya think we have the same stories because they have happend?
Or ya just think its the old farts club making up stories? BTW I'm 30.

In reply to:
Give me a
GOOD reason to lose my cypres.

Show me one post where I said they were bad? I do say not to rely on them, and that I don't like the attitude it seems to foster. But the device is a good one. I have one.


Ron

Sep 18, 2003, 4:23 AM
Post #100 of 155 (736 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No, nor do I have a history of that. I'm arguing because you sound like an old fart who thinks that only
people with "the right stuff(tm)" should be skydiving.

1. Im 30 (OK 31 next mth.)

2. I don't think people with "The Wrong Stuff" should be jumping...Thats different than "The Right Stuff". ""TRS" was the top pilots that got to go into space...Several thousand wanted to, but they didn't have "TRS". It does not mean the should not ever have flown again, but they were not going into space. The pilots with "TWS" never got an invite to try. People with "TWS" are dangerous, and they are out there.

In reply to:
In looking at this for three seconds, I can come up with 8 different scenarios which end with a cypres
activation. In only one of them, was "doing nothing" a cause. If you really think that the only cause of a
Cypres fire is "doing nothing", then I think you don't understand how it works.

Give em to me.

In reply to:
Or did everything you could, and couldn't get it done. This is the more likely case.

You asked the difference between a reserve ride and a CYPRES.

The difference is one you did it the other a box did...Thats the difference. Regaurdless of how much you "tried" you still did nothing.

In reply to:
Granted that I've only been around here for 4 years, but I've never seen anybody have a Cypres fire
because they did nothing. I've seen 4 fire for very good reasons.

List them..I bet we can find out the root cause in 5 seconds.

In reply to:
I'm not saying there never has been someone, but if in 4 years I've never seen a single one, there can't be
that many of them, certainly not enough of them to warant a thread like this.


If it didn't happen in the last 4 years or at a DZ that you were at I guess it never happened?


(This post was edited by Ron on Sep 18, 2003, 4:32 AM)


jumper03  (D License)

Sep 18, 2003, 7:33 AM
Post #101 of 155 (1599 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess that's what got my hackles up when I kept reading your argument Ron - It seemed to me that you were arguing that in addition to paying for a jump ticket, you had to pass the gonad meter to get on the plane. However, through repeated postings, I see why you say what you say. Doesn't mean I agree but at least now I don't pissed when I read your posts Wink


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 18, 2003, 8:03 AM
Post #102 of 155 (1591 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Ok, maybe for a small minority (or he'd argue a vast majority) of
> skydivers become so complacent due to the cypres that their
> emergency procedures are lacking. Are they really more likely to be
> killed than if they didn't have a cypres at all? More likely to have a
> cypres fire, that's for sure. But more likely to die? I seriously doubt
> it. So, as I think kallend has been pointing out, the cypres saves
> lives. I just can't see how anyone can argue it's a bad thing in
> general.

I agree. The saving of lives is good; the increased reliance on a mechanical device is bad. A jumper who relies on their cypres and uses one religiously, and participates in dangerous activities, is more likely to live than a jumper who does not use a cypres and participates in dangerous activities. Of course, a jumper who uses a cypres, does not rely on it, and also does _not_ participate in dangerous activities is the safest of all. Over the past 12 years or so I have seen the first category increase greatly and the last category decrease a similar amount.

Over the same 12 years the fatalities from no/low pulls have declined - so maybe the attitude you and Ron describe as common is not so widespread after all.


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 18, 2003, 8:07 AM
Post #103 of 155 (1591 views)
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Re: [Ron] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Or ya just think its the old farts club making up stories? BTW I'm 30.

[reply

I'm from the generation that doesn't trust anyone over 30.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 18, 2003, 11:20 AM
Post #104 of 155 (1569 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

IMHO - more and more complacent skydivers are being born every day. I see it in canopy patterns, lying about experience, etc, etc...

i think Ron's point is extremely valid if it gets one person to realize that maybe they shouldn't rely on a device to save their life but rather planning and education.

"I'm a big macho guy that doesn't need to rely on anyone or anything else for my safety because I'm a great skydiver."

I don't think he is saying that at all - quite the contrary - he is saying he learned and is still learning procedures and knowledge that helps him stay alive and he is just trying to pass that along.

'I know what's important for my survival. The fact that I have an AAD on my back HAS NO EFFECT on those things.'

Precisly the point Ron is trying to make Dave.

Arguing for the point of arguing as some people do in these forums is counterproductive and detracts from the quality of this medium - not directed towards you Dave.


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 18, 2003, 3:12 PM
Post #105 of 155 (1546 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

WinkBingo!Wink
Quote:
A real, tangible respect for what they are doing? Actually, that's precisely my point J.E.
No sir, I see plenty of jumpers out here today who in fact do NOT have that at all.

Scrumpot,
Well I guess if you have that many where you are, I'd hope you keep them there! Then, you move into the question....... "Is it a cypres they need or some one to tell them to take up golf?" Brings up a moral dilemma, doesn't it?

Blues,

J.E.


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 18, 2003, 3:18 PM
Post #106 of 155 (1546 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazy
I have met at least five so far. Two pointed out that they had cypreses, and thus if they did not pull they WOULD survive. I don't know why the third one didn't pull. She just gave up and waited for someone else to open a parachute for her. Good thing she had a cypres so she can continue jumping without fear of dying!
Quote:
So, how many skydivers do you know that do not understand that if
> you do not pull, you do not survive? Intimate knowledge or common
> sense


As I said Bill, Intimate knowledge or common sense, neither I think. But your comment beckons the question...... So what did you do, ground them???Wink


Got to love it!!!!!

Blues my Brother,

J.E.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 18, 2003, 3:20 PM
Post #107 of 155 (1544 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I've offered to buy people a set of bowling shoes personally J.E., more than once! Crazy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 18, 2003, 3:26 PM
Post #108 of 155 (1539 views)
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Re: [sducoach] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>But your comment beckons the question...... So what did you do,
>ground them???

Grounded two of them; they were students. I had no jurisdiction over the others.


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 18, 2003, 3:27 PM
Post #109 of 155 (1539 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazy
Quote:
A guy shows up on a DZ. He has no altimeters. He can't judge altitude; he just pulls when everyone else pulls. You question him on this. "Hey, that's why I have an AAD!" he says.

You honestly wouldn't question his use of the AAD? I would.
Quote:
I would not question his use of an AAD, I'd question how he got there in the first place and what he's doing at your DZ?????Wink

Blues,

J.E.


sducoach  (D License)

Sep 18, 2003, 3:41 PM
Post #110 of 155 (1535 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileSmileSmileSmile

Good Man!

Blues,

J.E.

edit.

Save this one Bill.

PM


(This post was edited by sducoach on Sep 18, 2003, 3:46 PM)


mikeat10500  (B 3715)

Sep 18, 2003, 5:28 PM
Post #111 of 155 (1515 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How do you describe the 25 people who died from no/low pull in the USA in 1989 (the good ol' pre-CYPRES days, when all skydivers accepted reponsibility for themselves).

Better yet, how do we explain the drastic drop in low pull/no pulls in 1990? How many people had an
AAD in their rig in '90?
Attachments: fatalities.gif (10.5 KB)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 18, 2003, 5:47 PM
Post #112 of 155 (1510 views)
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Re: [mikeat10500] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>Better yet, how do we explain the drastic drop in low pull/no pulls in
> 1990? How many people had an AAD in their rig in '90?

I think a better question would be "why was there a spike in no-pull fatalities in 1989?" Hard to say without being able to see 1988. I didn't keep any Parachutists from back then (unfortunately.)


(This post was edited by billvon on Sep 18, 2003, 5:55 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 19, 2003, 6:44 AM
Post #113 of 155 (1475 views)
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Re: [mikeat10500] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
How do you describe the 25 people who died from no/low pull in the USA in 1989 (the good ol' pre-CYPRES days, when all skydivers accepted reponsibility for themselves).

Better yet, how do we explain the drastic drop in low pull/no pulls in 1990? How many people had an
AAD in their rig in '90?

Darwin?


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 19, 2003, 8:43 AM
Post #114 of 155 (1464 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow - for the first time I couldn't agree more Mr. K.

I was just thinking that - all of these Cypress arguments and low turn arguments - I've finally come to the point where I can honestly say and believe that Darwin is at work.

Everyone reads and signs the disclaimers - skydiving isn't a safe sport by any means. We can argue all day long about Cypresses and swooping small ass canopies, but as the sport progresses as it will continue to, more people will find new ways to die as Darwin NEVER GOES AWAY EVER!

Well put Mr. K.


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 19, 2003, 9:00 AM
Post #115 of 155 (1459 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow - for the first time I couldn't agree more Mr. K.

I was just thinking that - all of these Cypress arguments and low turn arguments - I've finally come to the point where I can honestly say and believe that Darwin is at work.

Everyone reads and signs the disclaimers - skydiving isn't a safe sport by any means. We can argue all day long about Cypresses and swooping small ass canopies, but as the sport progresses as it will continue to, more people will find new ways to die as Darwin NEVER GOES AWAY EVER!

Well put Mr. K.

That's Dr. K to you, Mr. K.Wink


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Sep 19, 2003, 9:20 AM
Post #116 of 155 (1452 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Doh - I should know that by now - Dr. K...


crwtom

Sep 21, 2003, 9:28 AM
Post #117 of 155 (1417 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

 
a lot of the effect of how an AAD affects a sense of self-responsibility has to do with how people talk about it and how they explain the function and value of an AAD.

Some will have an issue with that but for example I was never told during my student training that there is a gadget like an AAD on my rig - I though for sure that a no-pull would do me in. Only towards the end of my progression I talked to others and found out. Sure some people will say "Oh have to know what's in your equipment to make proper decisions" - but, really, what complex chain of chain of decisions in a low-altitude-plus- AAD scenario will you be able to expect from a level IV AFF.

In that sense about the worst you can tell someone is "You'll be fine - you have a CYPES" - that's downright wrong, dangerous and irresponsible. The reality is that AAD's can help only in some very few emergency scenarios - self-responsibility still applies to the bulk of all dangeous situations in skydiing. For example:

- the majority of incidents are landing accidents - a CYPRES does nothing here. Others are canopy collisions in most of which an AAD wouldn't have helped either.

- a CYPRES arms only above some altitude (I think 1000ft or 1500 ft ??) , if you bail out at that altitude and don't pull - you're toast even with a CYPRES.

- if you don't cut-away from a malfunction above say 600 ft the CYPRES probably won't help much either.(It'll be a couple fo 100ft before you get to 78mph and then the reserve still needs to deploy).

- if you still have junk hung up on you after malfunction (like a horseshoe or a canopy collision or otherwise hung up lines) you may be either to slow for a CYPRES fire or have your reserve fire into the junk.

- in various freefall or fuselage collision incidents there are usually unending speculations whether the person was already killed during the collision itself or in the subsequent nopull due to unconsciousness.

- even if you are in the "perfect CYPRES" scenario (i.e. you jumped from 2000ft or higher, you are at 1000 ft at terminal with *nothing* out and no intention of pulling) you are still rolling the dices. At that altitude you have no time for picking a landing area or pattern - you thump in where you are, if you're lucky after you unstowed the brakes. Also there's no time to deal with minor reserve malfunctions (line-twists, line-overs, etc.).

... and this list could probably be continued much further, and all these are real incidents that happen(ed).

The point I want to make is that a lot of the bemoaned "CYPRES-complacency" may be more due to the way CYPRES-fans talk about that back-up-piece, rather than the unit itself. I believe much would be done if it were more stressed that an AAD can help you only in a very narrow and very specific set of circumstances, deemphasizing and downplaying the role of the AAD.

blues ones, Thomas


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 21, 2003, 10:56 AM
Post #118 of 155 (1408 views)
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Re: [crwtom] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
a lot of the effect of how an AAD affects a sense of self-responsibility has to do with how people talk about it and how they explain the function and value of an AAD.

Some will have an issue with that but for example I was never told during my student training that there is a gadget like an AAD on my rig - I though for sure that a no-pull would do me in. Only towards the end of my progression I talked to others and found out. Sure some people will say "Oh have to know what's in your equipment to make proper decisions" - but, really, what complex chain of chain of decisions in a low-altitude-plus- AAD scenario will you be able to expect from a level IV AFF.

In that sense about the worst you can tell someone is "You'll be fine - you have a CYPES" - that's downright wrong, dangerous and irresponsible. The reality is that AAD's can help only in some very few emergency scenarios - self-responsibility still applies to the bulk of all dangeous situations in skydiing. For example:

- the majority of incidents are landing accidents - a CYPRES does nothing here. Others are canopy collisions in most of which an AAD wouldn't have helped either.

- a CYPRES arms only above some altitude (I think 1000ft or 1500 ft ??) , if you bail out at that altitude and don't pull - you're toast even with a CYPRES.

- if you don't cut-away from a malfunction above say 600 ft the CYPRES probably won't help much either.(It'll be a couple fo 100ft before you get to 78mph and then the reserve still needs to deploy).

- if you still have junk hung up on you after malfunction (like a horseshoe or a canopy collision or otherwise hung up lines) you may be either to slow for a CYPRES fire or have your reserve fire into the junk.

- in various freefall or fuselage collision incidents there are usually unending speculations whether the person was already killed during the collision itself or in the subsequent nopull due to unconsciousness.

- even if you are in the "perfect CYPRES" scenario (i.e. you jumped from 2000ft or higher, you are at 1000 ft at terminal with *nothing* out and no intention of pulling) you are still rolling the dices. At that altitude you have no time for picking a landing area or pattern - you thump in where you are, if you're lucky after you unstowed the brakes. Also there's no time to deal with minor reserve malfunctions (line-twists, line-overs, etc.).

... and this list could probably be continued much further, and all these are real incidents that happen(ed).

The point I want to make is that a lot of the bemoaned "CYPRES-complacency" may be more due to the way CYPRES-fans talk about that back-up-piece, rather than the unit itself. I believe much would be done if it were more stressed that an AAD can help you only in a very narrow and very specific set of circumstances, deemphasizing and downplaying the role of the AAD.

blues ones, Thomas

Given the known and well documented reluctance of Americans to read instruction manuals, surely the briefing on the purpose and use of the CYPRES should take place during training by the instructor.

If students graduate with a "bad attitude" and misunderstanding of their equipment, surely much of the blame should lie at the feet of the instructor who signed them off.


skydiveacapulco  (D 9092)

Sep 22, 2003, 9:13 PM
Post #119 of 155 (1361 views)
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Re: [kallend] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

my two dollers.
if it makes skydiving safer use it.
if its made by man dont reliey on it.
if its used by idoits dont trust it.
forget it,s there god gave you two hands and a brain far more complex than a computer chip and far more expensive use them its safer.
the cyprus is an aid a back upu a just in case thats all.


OATSF14  (D 10601)

Jan 3, 2004, 11:58 AM
Post #120 of 155 (1292 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice post. Agree with you 100%. Wendy has also made some excellent observations. I continually find myself in awe (usually after many beers) when a newbie considers me a "death wish type of jumper" due to my rig having no cypres, no rsl, and I jump with no helmet. (there are people out there Bill who would not jump without a helmet also) Safety is great. God bless all the bells and whistles. However bells and whistles can fail. It still comes down to the brain in your head. You must accept the attitude that a cypres is a final back up device. If you as a jumper mentally cannot jump without one, you are at risk. Everyone jump safely this year.


virgin-burner

Oct 12, 2009, 4:03 AM
Post #121 of 155 (987 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

the time is six years later, do you think its acceptable, say for a jumper of my numbers, to jump without an AAD!?


piisfish

Oct 12, 2009, 4:08 AM
Post #122 of 155 (985 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

to me, yes it is acceptable.


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Oct 12, 2009, 4:18 AM
Post #123 of 155 (974 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Over here it's not a jump# requirement, but to jump without a cypres you must either have a C-licence, do a static-line round jump, or have a Vigil (I or II), argus, FXC12000, Sentinel MK2, Kap3, Heightfinder, EFA or Astra, the latter 9 of which must be turned on and function within the specs set by the manufacturer and the RDAA AND have approval of a licenced RDAA instructor.

But since you don't fall under Dutch rules and regulations, all I can say to you (not being hindered by knowledge of the Swiss rules) is:

Knock yourself out. Angelic




Edited to specify Vigil: I or II


(This post was edited by Baksteen on Oct 12, 2009, 4:34 AM)


virgin-burner

Oct 12, 2009, 5:40 AM
Post #124 of 155 (930 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

from you, i expected a different answer; since its in regard to ME asking the question, maybe not so much.. Wink


robskydiv  (D 26660)

Oct 12, 2009, 5:44 AM
Post #125 of 155 (930 views)
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Re: [billvon] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Great post Bill and I agree. Almost all of my jumps post student training have been without an AAD. But now with two kids that depend on me, I'll probably get one before I start back up again. The only thing that bothers me is the two-out scenario if I pull a litle low.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Oct 12, 2009, 6:40 AM
Post #126 of 155 (1336 views)
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Re: [robskydiv] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Look at it this way - Some of the most skilled pilots in the world, flying the most high-performance aircraft, sit in an ejection seat. Because shit happens, and the ground is totally unforgiving. Why not take advantage of any technological edge possible.

As far as a two-out, learn what to do and understand the variables and how to deal with them. It doesn't happen from being a LITTLE low. You can toss at 2500 all day and never have a problem.

Kevin K.


piisfish

Oct 12, 2009, 6:52 AM
Post #127 of 155 (1332 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

well... you jump under Swiss regulations. You should be big enough to take your decisions and know when you can jump or not.

I recommend jumping regularly with an AAD, preferrably a german one. But sometimes you have to jump with the ADD turned OFF (specially in our country). And we also have the possibility to jump without AAD, wether being under scheduled maintenance, or due to unscheduled failure.


virgin-burner

Oct 12, 2009, 7:58 AM
Post #128 of 155 (1296 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

thing is, i'm about to sell my rig, and the guy wants it WITH the cypres; now, i got a container coming, i need canopies to stuff in there, so money for a cypres is kinda out. original plan was to transfer cypres from old to new, money's sufficient (for now) for that, but adding another 1800.- kinda blows my budget. or i just hold skydiving off completely for the off-season, but that blows too..


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 12, 2009, 8:23 AM
Post #129 of 155 (1285 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Knock yourself out. Angelic




LaughLaughLaugh


JohanW  (D 86318)

Oct 12, 2009, 8:40 AM
Post #130 of 155 (1273 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Over here it's not a jump# requirement, but to jump without a cypres you must either have a C-licence, do a static-line round jump, or have a Vigil (I or II), argus, FXC12000, Sentinel MK2, Kap3, Heightfinder, EFA or Astra, the latter 9 of which must be turned on and function within the specs set by the manufacturer and the RDAA AND have approval of a licenced RDAA instructor.

But since you don't fall under Dutch rules and regulations, all I can say to you (not being hindered by knowledge of the Swiss rules) is:

Knock yourself out. Angelic

Edited to specify Vigil: I or II
The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve. Tongue

(I know of one case where this almost might have been applicable .. that is, static line, round main, square reserve, piggyback rig, no AAD, unlicensed jumper.)


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Oct 12, 2009, 9:24 AM
Post #131 of 155 (1241 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
thing is, i'm about to sell my rig, and the guy wants it WITH the cypres; now, i got a container coming, i need canopies to stuff in there, so money for a cypres is kinda out.

I had a friend who sold the Cypres from his rig to make some money (don't worry, this doesn't have a bad ending - he's still alive, as far as I know Wink). It did strike me as a shame that he should have to do that. It would have been different if he'd never had, or didn't want, an AAD - I think he just desperately needed the cash.

If it was me with an AAD-less rig, I'd try to raise the money to buy one sooner rather than later, but I wouldn't stop or limit my jumping in the meantime. But nobody can tell you whether it's acceptable for you to jump without an AAD - you have to weigh that up for yourself.

If it is just a short term cash flow problem, have you looked at the second-hand market? I'm sure some people must have upgraded to a Cypres 2 (for example) while their original model still has a couple of years of life. You might be able to pick up a nearly expired AAD for a fraction of the price of a new one.


virgin-burner

Oct 12, 2009, 9:39 AM
Post #132 of 155 (1230 views)
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Re: [MikeJD] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

havent looked in it just recently, but i dont think there are many cypres's around..

i think i just go without one for a couple months; it's just when i started, i really liked the idea of an AAD, and still do!


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Oct 12, 2009, 9:56 AM
Post #133 of 155 (1217 views)
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Re: [JohanW] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Edited to specify Vigil: I or II
The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve. Tongue

Well, yes; VB would have to talk to Willem.. but I was purely talking about AAD regulations, not about whether VB could use his own rig. Cool

Or did I misinterpret some obscure regulation?


virgin-burner

Oct 12, 2009, 10:00 AM
Post #134 of 155 (1216 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

to clear things up; i dont think i could jump in the netherlands with my gear as it is, let alone my future gear! Wink


piisfish

Oct 12, 2009, 10:13 AM
Post #135 of 155 (1205 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

there are better deals around... but I fully understand that the cost of an AAD can seem limitative.

if you don't plan to jump abroad in the next couple of months, sell it with the AAD. Contact riggers. They might be able to find a closet rig with a valid AAD inside.


virgin-burner

Oct 12, 2009, 11:44 AM
Post #136 of 155 (1183 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 12, 2009, 1:06 PM
Post #137 of 155 (1164 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

>the time is six years later, do you think its acceptable, say for a jumper
>of my numbers, to jump without an AAD!?

Sure, as long as you are comfortable doing so.


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 12, 2009, 2:44 PM
Post #138 of 155 (1144 views)
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Re: [MikeJD] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I had a friend who sold the Cypres from his rig to make some money (don't worry, this doesn't have a bad ending - he's still alive, as far as I know

I took my Cypres out of my rig to put in my wife's rig. Her Cypres was due for an 8 year and we decided to sell it to a low time jumper for cheap.

That and I had a Cypres 1, non-speed, and chowing into the pond loaded around 2.7 had me worried about that device. Someday I might buy a Speed Cypre2, but for now I have things I would rather spend my money on.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 12, 2009, 4:21 PM
Post #139 of 155 (1116 views)
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Re: [robskydiv] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The only thing that bothers me is the two-out scenario if I pull a litle low.
Sure as hell beats the "nothing out" scenario if you don't pull at all.Wink

I made the first 2000 jumps without an AAD. I sure like having one now.Smile


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 12, 2009, 7:44 PM
Post #140 of 155 (1088 views)
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Re: [JohanW] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve.

And where did you pick up this piece of information?

http://vids.myspace.com/...amp;videoid=14291990

Sparky


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 12, 2009, 9:40 PM
Post #141 of 155 (1075 views)
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Re: [JohanW] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve. Tongue
Very untrue. I have owned and jumped a S/L piggy back with round parachutes.


tetra316  (D 26945)

Oct 12, 2009, 9:53 PM
Post #142 of 155 (1067 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As far as a two-out, learn what to do and understand the variables and how to deal with them. It doesn't happen from being a LITTLE low. You can toss at 2500 all day and never have a problem.

Kevin K.

For that matter you can exit at 2000 ft on a hop and pop all day and never have a problem. Gotta love the Pacific Northest.Wink


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Oct 12, 2009, 11:37 PM
Post #143 of 155 (1052 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve.

And where did you pick up this piece of information?

http://vids.myspace.com/...amp;videoid=14291990

Sparky

Within context, Johan is right:

Quote:
Basic safety regulations article 509

Special regulations regarding use of round main parachutes.

1) Rigs with a chest mounted reserve used by skydivers with at most a b-licence:
*must have a cross-connector (on the chest mounted reserve)
*do not have to have an AAD
2) The minimum exit height for SL jumps with round main parachutes is 2000 feet.
Hence, the SL-round cannot have a piggyback reserve if you want to jump it without an AAD, under Dutch regulations but must have a chest mounted reserve.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 13, 2009, 3:46 AM
Post #144 of 155 (1030 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

OK now I understand. If the rest of Dutch BSR's are written to the same level of confusion you guys must have a hell of a time just getting on the plane.Tongue

Sparky


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 13, 2009, 5:43 AM
Post #145 of 155 (1000 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
thing is, i'm about to sell my rig, and the guy wants it WITH the cypres;

How about just saying 'no'?

If everything else about the rig is a good fit for the buyer, the lack of a Cypres should be the last thing to kill the deal. Both the Cypres and the reserve are the easiest pieces to locate used as there are very few options. Rerserves just need to be sized correctly, and there is generally only one model of Cypres to fit a certain rig.

Main canopies bring up the issue of size and color (it matters to some people) and the harness/container has the most options, and as such is the hardest to locate a suitable used one.

Additionally, if a buyer is forced to buy any part of a rig new due to time or market constraints, the Cypres is least expensive component in a rig.

Discount the price of the rig to match the value of the Cypres according to the price calculator on the SSK website, and call it a day.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 13, 2009, 5:54 AM
Post #146 of 155 (993 views)
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Re: [Hazarrd] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Doesn't the most recent Cypres save that was posted in the Incident forum give most people enough of a reason to use an AAD?

Bump, to that point.

Yesterday, Oct 12, 2009, there were 2 separate fatalities. Both were high-speed main malfunctions (possibly totals or PC in tow), followed by a too-low reserve pull on one, and an apparent no reserve pull on the other. The Hawaii fatality was an experienced jumper and Navy SEAL whose rig did not have an AAD. The Quebec fatality was a jumper who had about 87 jumps, most of them within the past year. Whether he had an AAD has not yet been reported, but from the facts it's not unreasonable to suspect (pending confirmation) that he did not.

Back in the Day, an awful lot of fatalities were no-pulls or low-pulls. Then modern, reliable AADs (and audible altimeters) came onto the market and into common use (as well as higher average pull altitudes), and low-pull/no-pull fatalities greatly reduced. (Replaced, sadly, with a lot more under-canopy fatalities.)

From the looks of things, yesterday's two incidents appear to have been fatalities of the old-fashioned kind. I think it's reasonable to keep that in mind as the AAD debate goes on.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Oct 13, 2009, 5:56 AM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Oct 13, 2009, 11:14 AM
Post #147 of 155 (927 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
havent looked in it just recently, but i dont think there are many cypres's around..

i think i just go without one for a couple months; it's just when i started, i really liked the idea of an AAD, and still do!


There are at least 5 listed in the Classifieds section of this site. Also, when a friend needed one, he called SSK (USA rep for Airtek) and they sold him a used one.

I am sure either your buyer, or you, could get what you need on the used market.

While I believe in taking 100% responsibility for the safe execution of your dive, I also believe that there are external factors beyond your control that can be deadly. Taking 100% responsibility for the safety of the dive should include anticipating all that you can including outside items that could cause incapacitation.

Just my thoughts,
JW


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 13, 2009, 11:37 AM
Post #148 of 155 (912 views)
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Re: [tetra316] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

They moved oceans on us???
Shocked
LaughLaughLaugh


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 14, 2009, 8:43 AM
Post #149 of 155 (782 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The Hawaii fatality was an experienced jumper and Navy SEAL whose rig did not have an AAD. The Quebec fatality was a jumper who had about 87 jumps, most of them within the past year. Whether he had an AAD has not yet been reported

Correction of my earlier post. The Navy SEAL in Hawaii is also the person who had 87 jumps in the past year. The experience level of the Quebec jumper has not yet been reported. Apologies for the error.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 14, 2009, 12:09 PM
Post #150 of 155 (743 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, now we have the answer about the Quebec jumper's rig. His rig did have an AAD, but it was not turned on; so it might as well have not been there at all.

So now it's established that both of the October 12, 2009 fatalities were high-speed, container-closed main malfunctions, where neither rig had an activated AAD at the time of the jump, and where the presence of one might have interrupted the chain of events to make either incident, or both of them, survivable.

Someone else in the Hawaii incident thread has remarked, "it looks like the old fashioned way of going in clean is back". I surely hope that's not the case.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Oct 14, 2009, 12:20 PM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 14, 2009, 2:59 PM
Post #151 of 155 (572 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I remarked when I bought my first AAD 15 years ago, that I would feel really stupid going in with $1200 left in my checking account.

One can debate all they want, but risk management is about playing the odds. If you push the limits hard enough, an AAD can cause problems. But they have saved way more lives than they have taken. I have over a dozen reserve rides, all by the book, no problems. I still use an AAD whenever possible, because I never know what will happen on the very next jump. Jim Lennox never expected to get knocked unconscious on a 12 way jump at LP this summer, but he did. Crazy

I used to be the young guy with the little kids. I would have hated to leave them like that. Unsure My deepest sympathies to the families.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 14, 2009, 3:06 PM
Post #152 of 155 (566 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Someone else in the Hawaii incident thread has remarked, "it looks like the old fashioned way of going in clean is back". I surely hope that's not the case.

It never went anywhere. This is just the last couple of years.

Sparky

http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/...p;LessonsOperator=OR


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Oct 15, 2009, 9:04 AM
Post #153 of 155 (517 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I remarked when I bought my first AAD 15 years ago, that I would feel really stupid going in with $1200 left in my checking account.

Word.


freeatlast  (C 33030)

Oct 16, 2009, 1:52 AM
Post #154 of 155 (454 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Yep - it's the worst $1200 that you'll ever save ... Mad

There are also places out there that sometimes will hire you an AAD or even let you pay it off over a period of time (if they know you)...

Here in the UK - new AAD's tend to be around $1500 - $1600 but we work with people to help get them sorted with one...

I've sold two AAD's in the last couple of days alone - both of which were a year or two old and will be good for at least the next ten years Smile


robskydiv  (D 26660)

Oct 18, 2009, 7:31 PM
Post #155 of 155 (371 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Jumping without a cypres [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to pitch at 2,001ft. Wink



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