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Wingload BSR

 

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Poll: Wingload BSR
We should have a BSR limiting Wingload to jump numbers with an option to test out to a higher wingload and Education. 91 / 40%
We should not do anything...there is not a problem, or people should be free do do as they please. 9 / 4%
Education with out regulaton. 130 / 57%
230 total votes
 
Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 23, 2003, 7:15 AM
Post #276 of 289 (939 views)
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Re: [Ducky] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Occasionaly Darwin should be allwoed to step in and take over.
How many dead and/or injured jumpers do you consider to be "occasionally"? Six deaths a year? An injury just about every weekend across the US? That's where we're at right now.

Seen a landing accident yet? Visited a friend in the hospital after he had an unplanned titatium implant? Been to any funerals lately?


tonyhathaway  (D 13263)

Jun 23, 2003, 7:23 AM
Post #277 of 289 (937 views)
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Re: [Ron] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as a canopy control class goes, I'm sure it would make anyone better. Information doesn't only trickle down, it goes up also. (this using the theory that people's version of "down" is higher jump numbers to lower) A perfect example of this is I have more jumps than any of the guys from the full-time PD swoop team, but I can learn WAY more from them than they could from me. Thats where #'s don't matter. Bigger parachutes may not be as fun as something small, but good landings no matter how boring are still more fun than bad landings that were exciting right before it went bad. By not downsizing too quickly you will learn more and that helps when going to other things. I think one definite advantage to having many jumps is not only skill that comes with it, but knowing the skill you don't have, and knowing that you may not be able to do everything you see someone else do. Knowing that if I started jumping that little 96 cross-braced canopy that I just might not be able to swoop like someone else who has jumped that parachute for the last 1000 jumps--even if they only have a fraction of the total jumps I have. If some people learned that earlier, they might not be ready to go to something else. --the last bit here is what I added with my edit-- Another example I know about is someone bought a vengeance because it is a swooping canopy and sold their spectre because it is not. Thats complete crap. If you can't swoop a spectre, you probably are not ready to swoop anything. (or whatever type you think you can't swoop so you need to get something else that you think you can-this case just happened to be the same as what I use)-Tony


(This post was edited by tonyhathaway on Jun 23, 2003, 7:39 AM)


Ron

Jun 23, 2003, 7:39 AM
Post #278 of 289 (929 views)
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Re: [tonyhathaway] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think one definite advantage to having many jumps is not
only skill that comes with it, but knowing the skill you don't have, and knowing that you may not be able to
do everything you see someone else do.

And this is the major factor in why jump #'s is a good way to judge experience.

In reply to:
A perfect example of this is I have more jumps than any of the guys from the full-time PD swoop
team, but I can learn WAY more from them than they could from me. Thats where #'s don't matter.

And this is SKILL, not experience. If they jump 96's all day, yes they will swoop better than you if you have never jumped one. Jump #'s CAN give you skill, but they might not. Jump #'s WILL give you experience.

In reply to:
Knowing that if I started jumping that little 96 cross-braced
canopy that I just might not be able to swoop like someone else who has jumped that parachute for the
last 1000 jumps

Again experience tells you that even with WAY more jumps than some of them that you can't do what they do.

This is some of the experience that we are trying to let these new guys get before they get a tiny little canopy.

Tony, what is your take on this? Is there a problem with people getting highly loaded canopies before they have the knowledge,skill, and experience to handle them?

What would you suggest as a solution if you see a problem?

Ron


tonyhathaway  (D 13263)

Jun 23, 2003, 10:25 AM
Post #279 of 289 (918 views)
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Re: [Ron] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Tony, what is your take on this? Is there a problem with people getting highly loaded canopies before they have the knowledge,skill, and experience to handle them?

I would say yes. First of all, I am on the fence about some sort of regulation. As far as formal regulation from USPA, being in the BSR and such, that would help when one tells another that a certain parachute isn't right for them. Many times when someone is told a parachute isn't right for them or that they are going to hurt themselves on a parachute they take it as a blow to their ego and figure whoever is telling them that doesn't know what they are talking about. The one being told figures the one telling doesn't really know the skill of them. One could use that paperwork to show here is the BSR and tell them why that rule was written. What that rule would be is another whole debate. Rules only go so far. People without an a license can leave their AAD off, disconnect their RSL in the plane. They would have a harder time getting a canopy that they shouldn't necessarily be on, but they still could. I don't pull above 2000' because its a rule, I do because its a good idea. If I need to go below 2000' I do, even though I'm breaking the rules. I think gun control would be something to look at here. When used properly, a gun can be used for great fun, it can also be used to kill people. I'm all for people having guns, I just want people that have them to use them properly, and not hurt anyone in the process. I'm all for people having fast parachutes as long as they use them properly. The people who take canopy control classes seem to me to be the ones who don't necessarily need it. They are ones who acnowlege that they need some tips. The ones who don't take it, or especially don't listen to more experienced pilots on the DZ seem to be the ones who do. They think they either have it figured out, or don't need any help figuring it out. So to me, that becomes the issue. Generally the ones who need help don't listen. The ones that listen need some help also, but at least they take the constructive ctiticism and learn from it. I don't think you can change the mindset from the ones who won't listen. That being said, the only way to stop those is to keep them from jumping something. Again, this is why I'm on the fence. How would you enforce any rules? This seems to be to be going down the "you can have my parachute when you pry it from my cold dead hand" road like guns. I do think there is a problem, has been for a long time. I don't know the overall answer, but I would be that if most of the ones now dead from maybe being in over their head too quick would have listened from the beginning to ones telling them, they might not be dead. The last 3 or 4 to leave Z-Hills in a helicopter were warned, talked to, not in a confrontational way (not all anyway) but the wouldn't listen. What do you do about that? I think they all had over 500 jumps. People take it as gospel when a good 4-way person tells them how to do a knee turn. Why don't people take the word of a good canopy pilot??? Man why do I babble on so much? -Tony


sducoach  (D License)

Jun 23, 2003, 10:33 AM
Post #280 of 289 (913 views)
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Re: [billvon] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

WinkYa got my vote!!


Ron

Jun 23, 2003, 10:45 AM
Post #281 of 289 (908 views)
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Re: [tonyhathaway] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
. As far as formal regulation
from USPA, being in the BSR and such, that would help when one tells another that a certain parachute isn't
right for them. Many times when someone is told a parachute isn't right for them or that they are going to
hurt themselves on a parachute they take it as a blow to their ego and figure whoever is telling them that
doesn't know what they are talking about. The one being told figures the one telling doesn't really know the
skill of them.

Yep..Or my personal favorite "You are just mad because I can do things you could not do a X number of jumps...cause I got mad skill baby...Yeah!!".

In reply to:
I don't pull above 2000' because its a rule, I do
because its a good idea. If I need to go below 2000' I do, even though I'm breaking the rules.

yes, you use *experience* to make this call...The problem is that the people this is targeted at don't have the experience,or the knowledge to make that call...They only think they do.

In reply to:
The people who take canopy control classes seem to me to be the ones who don't
necessarily need it.
This is the major issue with education without Regulation. They simply won't go to the classes. They don't think they need it.

In reply to:
The ones who don't take it, or
especially don't listen to more experienced pilots on the DZ seem to be the ones who do. They think they
either have it figured out, or don't need any help figuring it out. So to me, that becomes the issue.
Generally the ones who need help don't listen.

I agree.

In reply to:
I don't think you can change the mindset from the ones
who won't listen. That being said, the only way to stop those is to keep them from jumping something.
Again, this is why I'm on the fence. How would you enforce any rules?

But you can keep them from getting the high WL...As for how do you enforce it.

Well, you ground them. But the cool thing is the new students won't bitch about it since they didn't know other wise. It will be like how the new jumpers in a few years will think that it is normal that they can only do solos or jump with an Instructor or Coach till they get a license.

In reply to:
People take it as gospel when a good 4-way person tells them
how to do a knee turn. Why don't people take the word of a good canopy pilot???

That my friend is a damn good question.

In reply to:
Man why do I babble on
so much? -Tony

I've told you....its because you are old. Wink

Ron

For those that don't know Tony has over 10,000 jumps, and I respect him greatly...He is one of the people I listen to whenever he talks.


ChileRelleno  (D 24868)

Jun 23, 2003, 1:01 PM
Post #282 of 289 (891 views)
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Re: [Ron] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

WL @ 1:25:1, 330jumps.
Education not regulation... My education came from the school of hard landings i.e. shattered tib/fibBlush.


CJK  (B 2372)

Jun 23, 2003, 1:03 PM
Post #283 of 289 (888 views)
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Re: [ChileRelleno] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

1.44 @ 103 jumps AAD no RSL.

And now very troubled Unsure


PhillyKev

Jun 23, 2003, 1:16 PM
Post #284 of 289 (881 views)
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Re: [CJK] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1.44 @ 103 jumps

Ummm....yikes.


mds58

Jun 23, 2003, 1:18 PM
Post #285 of 289 (880 views)
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Re: [Ron] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

education and advise for regular jumper and ban for irresponsibles.
i have 200 with stiletto 120 wl 1.6
total jumps today 420


Ron

Jun 24, 2003, 5:51 AM
Post #286 of 289 (835 views)
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Re: [ChileRelleno] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Education not regulation... My education came from the school of hard landings i.e. shattered tib/fib.

What wingload and # of jumps did you tib/fib?

Ron


ChileRelleno  (D 24868)

Jun 24, 2003, 8:24 AM
Post #287 of 289 (818 views)
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Re: [Ron] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

1:25:1 @ 290 jumps


SuFantasma  (D 26267)

Jun 24, 2003, 12:49 PM
Post #288 of 289 (785 views)
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Re: [Ron] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

Lets see.... at 351 jumps the statistics are:

200 lbs - Birthday Suit (top load)
6 lbs - Birthday Suit Decorations (Shirt Pants Shoes)
2 lbs - Helmet + Altimeter + Google
8 lbs - Container + Dirt
7 lbs - Main Canopy
7 lbs - Reserve Canopy
1 lbs - Cypress
-----------
231 lbs Exit Weight

231 lbs / 170 ft^2 = ~1.356 lbs/ft^2Smile


Ducky  (A License)

Jun 26, 2003, 11:13 PM
Post #289 of 289 (740 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Wingload BSR [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Occasionaly Darwin should be allwoed to step in and take over.
How many dead and/or injured jumpers do you consider to be "occasionally"? Six deaths a year? An injury just about every weekend across the US? That's where we're at right now.

Seen a landing accident yet? Visited a friend in the hospital after he had an unplanned titatium implant? Been to any funerals lately?

Yes I have seen landing incidents, a fatality in fact. I am just realistic I suppose. Far too many of these incidents involve people whom rules and advice have no bearing upon.

kwak


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