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Wingload BSR.

 

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Zenister  (A 42)

May 28, 2003, 10:19 PM
Post #76 of 493 (1296 views)
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Re: [billvon] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

you know i'm sure i'll get the "how callous can you be?" response, but you know when you start they tell you again and again that you might die while doing this..if thats not a risk your prepared to take, and if your not mature enough to make decisions about what you can & should be flying, then maybe the gene pool is better off without you..

yeah it sucks when anyone dies, to bad more people dont learn from it & seek the knowledge and training necessary to minimize the chances of it happening to them instead of screaming about how "that shouldnt be allowed!!"

its not fear that should motivate anyone, its the desire to repeat the experience again in the morning. Fear also shouldnt motivate anyone to "be their brothers keeper" either.

and yes i have already lost friends in this and other risky endeavors.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 28, 2003, 10:56 PM
Post #77 of 493 (1286 views)
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Re: [Zenister] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

>but you know when you start they tell you again and again that you might
> die while doing this..if thats not a risk your prepared to take, and if
>your not mature enough to make decisions about what you can &
>should be flying, then maybe the gene pool is better off without you.

You can die a lot of ways in this sport. Most people know this. We have rules to prevent some of the more common deaths, like people who like to pull at 500 feet or jump on moonless nights with no lights. Are we infringing on their rights by not letting them do that? Sure. Why do we do it? Because some restriction of their rights will, we feel, do much more good than harm.

>Fear also shouldnt motivate anyone to "be their brothers keeper" either.

It is a desire to balance the good of being able to do whatever you want with the bad of seeing a lot of people die that motivates me, and (I think) motivates most people. We as a group think it's a good idea to set pull altitudes, restrictions on new grads, who can do demos, and when you have to get water training. We instituted those because a lot of people were dying; the BSR's were written in blood. We don't set restrictions on who can freefly because, so far, not too many people have died doing that too soon.

If people weren't dying under perfectly good canopies, then this issue would never come up. They are. If the number of deaths decreases - perhaps through your method of people learning from examples, or through peer pressure - then the desire for canopy regulation will go away. It will not be needed. If the current trends continue i.e. people jump ever smaller canopies sooner, without more education - then there will be cry for regulation, and proposed regulations will pass. This won't be because anyone wants to reduce your freedom, they just want to see fewer dead skydivers at the end of the year. That is one of the most basic purposes of USPA.

So it's really up to us. If you're OK with more regulation, then the canopy deaths we're seeing now (the 'examples' you refer to) can continue to rise. If you would prefer no new regulation, all the protesting in the world won't do much good. It didn't stop pull altitude requirements or student safety gear requirements. What will prevent new regulation is a decrease in fatalities under good canopies.


mikkey  (D License)

May 28, 2003, 11:24 PM
Post #78 of 493 (1281 views)
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Re: [Steel] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have you been to Amsterdam the capital of Holland, the most pornographic, highest drug using city in the world. (Great example to learn from) Or Sweden the most socialist country in all of Europe, another big bunch of sickoes. I don't want to offend Norway cause I have good freinds from there. But I will say that if you had been to these places, as I have, or if you knew more about them. Atleast then you would know that to use them as a model for our policy is just silly. We are more likely the ones that should be setting the example for the rest of the world.

2 points: Firstly, you are giving comfort to people who think that all Americans are arrogant people who without much (or any) knowledge of other countries and cultures are telling them how to live their lives. I have both friends and familiy in the US, but it pisses me off big time when some Americans think that the US way of doing things is always the best. And clearly it is not - look at your crime rate, your education system, your participaction rate at elections etc. etc. So just because you visited some countries don't think you can judge them. You are clearly showing the "ugly" American face by rambling on about these countries without even having the facts right. I assume you watch "Fox News" a lot Unsure

2. This has nothing to do with the operation of Skydiving in those countries, so your post is irrelevant. I have no statistical data, but I am quite sure that the accident rate for canopy landings is probably lower in countries where there is some regulation.


(This post was edited by mikkey on May 28, 2003, 11:37 PM)


Zenister  (A 42)

May 28, 2003, 11:48 PM
Post #79 of 493 (1273 views)
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Re: [mikkey] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have no statistical data, but I am quite sure that the accident rate for canopy landings is probably lower in countries where there is some regulation.

i seriously doubt this, since far more jumps per year are made in america. you really have to look at the number as a percentage of total participation...but i'd be really interesting in more detailed statistics all around...(canopy types, currency etc...)

still havent seen numbers that justify the "its raining blood" positions some people have taken on this issue because they happened to be close to someone who unfortunately contributed to the statistics..


Ron

May 29, 2003, 3:44 AM
Post #80 of 493 (1257 views)
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Re: [rhino] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
375 jumps I am at 1.95 and there I will stay. Having 375 jumps says NOTHING for my canopy skills.

Would you consider yourself an average canopy pilot?
Or an above average canopy pilot? (I know what he will say folks...It is the same thing ALL of the people that DIED say..."I'm above average of course...those others were stupid and had no natural skill...I am much better than then I have a pilots license/taken a canopy course/a degree from MIT/mad natural skill/people who coach me/blaaa blaa blaa...)

But lets just say that this is not intended to limit the JR swoopgods....Only delay the canopy size till they can get knowledge, and the skills to survive. I bet all jumpers will say that they thought they knew what they were doing at 100 jumps...till they get 500, then they realize they didn't know squat...Of course now at 500 jumps they do..until they get 1,000 ect,ect.

In reply to:
You cannot blanket judge jumpers like that.

Why not? We do it all the time.

Sarge...
Tell me why the PRO rating system will not work?

Ron


Ron

May 29, 2003, 3:48 AM
Post #81 of 493 (1255 views)
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Re: [Steel] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have you been to Amsterdam the capital of Holland, the most pornographic, highest drug using city in the
world. (Great example to learn from) Or Sweden the most socialist country in all of Europe, another big
bunch of sickoes. I don't want to offend Norway cause I have good freinds from there. But I will say that if
you had been to these places, as I have, or if you knew more about them. Atleast then you would know
that to use them as a model for our policy is just silly. We are more likely the ones that should be setting
the example for the rest of the world.

Unrelated babel...They are doing something about a problem...It will work.

The reason that they can do it, is becasue they don't have people bitching that their rights are being hurt.

We do. But I don't care about stepping on your rights...I am just wanting to delay them for the good of you, the sport, and me.

Ron


(This post was edited by Ron on May 29, 2003, 4:00 AM)


Ron

May 29, 2003, 4:07 AM
Post #82 of 493 (1253 views)
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Re: [crazy] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ya know why I choose last year?....

Simple..It was last year.

Now the reason tha we are seeing an increase in the number of jr jumpers flying a canpopy to their death is quite simple....

They can.

Back when the Stiletto came out there was a waiver to get one....And if it was a 107 or 97, there was a size waver as well. Now that is not the case. Almost anyone with 100 jumps can get a Stiletto/Crossfire/Cobalt with out any problem. Now some people (Thanks Lisa) will not let them...But then these people will just buy a used one from some guy that does not care.

So you see Jr swoopgods flying canopies they die under is becomming a problem because the canopies are easier to get these days, either new, or on the used market.

About how the other countries death rates under canopy is not a valid ratio due to the raw number of jumps....Statisticly the larger the number pool, the better the result....However, to discount it due to the lack of large numbers is foolish. And simply a tactic to try to make my points seem invalid....

Too bad my points are valid, based on just the numbers in the US.

Ron


okalb  (D 22854)

May 29, 2003, 5:32 AM
Post #83 of 493 (1241 views)
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Re: [crazy] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So i ask again: why did you select the year 2002?
If you select 2001, the results are very different.

I think that a lot has changed in the last few years. There are several major canopy manufacturers out there that are pushing people very hard into jumping canopies that are too small for them. That is a more recent phenomenon, so the most recent numbers are the ones we need to be looking at. I think as long as those manufacturers keep doing it, the numbers will only increase.


BMFin

May 29, 2003, 5:58 AM
Post #84 of 493 (1227 views)
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Re: [Ron] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here are the fatalities in Finland for the last 12 years. Choose page 22 Im pretty sure none of these fatalities is due to a hook/low turn. Check it out.


EDIT: the reason why I posted this is becouse some people have suspected we have a lot of incidents becouse of our downsizing culture...


(This post was edited by BMFin on May 29, 2003, 6:00 AM)


BMFin

May 29, 2003, 6:04 AM
Post #85 of 493 (1222 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone know the "jump per fatality" rates in US ? (preferrably from more than 3 years time)


markbaur  (D 6108)

May 29, 2003, 6:05 AM
Post #86 of 493 (1221 views)
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Re: [okalb] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are several major canopy manufacturers out there that are pushing people very hard into jumping canopies that are too small for them.

Name one.

Mark


mikeat10500  (B 3715)

May 29, 2003, 6:08 AM
Post #87 of 493 (1216 views)
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Re: Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
at 375 jumps I am at 1.95 and there I will stay.
Can somebody start a poll plotting jump numbers
vrs wingloading? Is this a record? There must be a challenger out there somewhere! So who's got 275
jumps and is at 2.3:1 wingloading? Come on fess up!
...mikeTongue


markbaur  (D 6108)

May 29, 2003, 6:11 AM
Post #88 of 493 (1215 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Actually, the, erm, regulationists are saying that anyone who is currently jumping a canopy that's outside of the specs would be grandfathered.

Why? Statistically, you are more likely to be injured on your next jump than to go any number of jumps and then get injured. If you are serious about regulating, then you shouldn't exempt yourself.

Mark


okalb  (D 22854)

May 29, 2003, 6:12 AM
Post #89 of 493 (1215 views)
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Re: [markbaur] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Name one.

I can name several, but that is not the discussion we are having here and I don't think it is appropriate in a public forum.


BMFin

May 29, 2003, 6:12 AM
Post #90 of 493 (1214 views)
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Re: [mikeat10500] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

Weel I have donwsized from 280 to 120 in 50 jumps. No problems here.


mikeat10500  (B 3715)

May 29, 2003, 6:23 AM
Post #91 of 493 (1204 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

BMFin
Exit wieght?
Wingload?
...mikeCool


samp76  (A 43239)

May 29, 2003, 6:23 AM
Post #92 of 493 (1204 views)
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Re: [Ron] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just so everyone knows in
2001:
10 deaths due to low turns or high perf. turn

5 low turn jump numbers and wingloading:
39 1.16
70 1.21
300 1.02
4000 unknown
170 1.48

5 high performance landings jump #'s and w/l:
4500 2.0
1000 1.53
4000 unknown - dropped a toggle
600 1.49
2400 1.63

2002 there were 14 deaths dues to canopy control.

USPA did not put the wingloading for the deaths in 2002.

These numbers are based off of the power point presentation for Saftey Day. If anyone wants it I can e-mail it to them. Just PM me.

-Sam-


markbaur  (D 6108)

May 29, 2003, 6:36 AM
Post #93 of 493 (1196 views)
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Re: [okalb] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can name several, but that is not the discussion we are having here and I don't think it is appropriate in a public forum.

Your point was that manufacturers are pushing little canopies, and are therefore at least partially responsible for the consequences, including reducing the size of their future customer base. PM me with your private accusations, then.

Mark


SkyDekker

May 29, 2003, 6:40 AM
Post #94 of 493 (1196 views)
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Re: [Steel] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Have you been to Amsterdam the capital of Holland, the most pornographic, highest drug using city in the world. (Great example to learn from) Or Sweden the most socialist country in all of Europe, another big bunch of sickoes. I don't want to offend Norway cause I have good freinds from there. But I will say that if you had been to these places, as I have, or if you knew more about them. Atleast then you would know that to use them as a model for our policy is just silly. We are more likely the ones that should be setting the example for the rest of the world.

So, you've lived in Europe for 9 months and now you are an expert. That just makes me laugh, just like all those people who say they have seen Europe, yeah you know on one of those 1 or 2 week trips.

ROFLMAO

Dude, before you start spewing, maybe you should check the following statistics:

Drug use by adults and children
Teen pregnancy and teen sexuality

Check those statistics for Holland and the US and then come back and make the same statement again.


Amazon  (D License)

May 29, 2003, 6:46 AM
Post #95 of 493 (1194 views)
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Re: [sarge] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Non-swoopers are not interested in heavy wingloading, (none that I know anyway...) but they'll have a reserve 10-30' smaller than their main? ...._what_about_them...

I for one am not in this category. I maxed out my reserve size and my main is about 40 SQ Ft less. I started asking a LOT of questions when I got back into the sport. Then I started shopping around and found a reserve I could live with( Thanks again SkyBytch) 5 reserve rides under rounds taught me the value of size and spotting. Then again. I am not interested in swooping at this point. I may at some point but my Main is plenty of fun to fly at a 1.2 to 1 but when the time for the reserve ride happens.. I want a nice big soft reserve to land under. And If I can stick a dead center in the peas when that happens so much the better.
Do I think we need more regulations?
It seems like common sense is not working. I don't particularly care for more and more intrusion into my life. Do people need to be protected from themselves... I do not know the answers. I love skydiving and if people keep killing themselves and more lawyers get involved I can see a time when I get protected right out of the sky. I would hate to see that happen due to people who use bad judgment and auger in.

Just my take and only I have to live with my decisions. I realized MY mortality before my mortality became the final moment of my life. I NEVER believed I would live as long as I have but somehow I have managed to outlive some of my immortal friends who never realized their mortality in time to save their own lives.

Ok so I am not one of the cool people, then again. I have tried the CPR thing on more than one dead man whose mortality had run out. When you do finally see it happen you get to experience a whole new thing called survivors guilt.. the WHAT IF.

What if I had said something. would it have made a difference.. What if I had done something different... would it make a difference. It does affect you. you can choose to ignore it if you want but you live with it the rest of your lives. I miss some of those people greatly, they were good friends.

What if.

Amazon


BMFin

May 29, 2003, 6:46 AM
Post #96 of 493 (1192 views)
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Re: [samp76] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just so everyone knows in
2001:
10 deaths due to low turns or high perf. turn

5 low turn jump numbers and wingloading:
39 1.16
70 1.21
300 1.02
4000 unknown
170 1.48

5 high performance landings jump #'s and w/l:
4500 2.0
1000 1.53
4000 unknown - dropped a toggle
600 1.49
2400 1.63

2002 there were 14 deaths dues to canopy control.

USPA did not put the wingloading for the deaths in 2002.

These numbers are based off of the power point presentation for Saftey Day. If anyone wants it I can e-mail it to them. Just PM me.

-Sam-

What are the over all jump per fatality numbers in US ?


BMFin

May 29, 2003, 6:48 AM
Post #97 of 493 (1190 views)
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Re: [mikeat10500] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BMFin
Exit wieght?
Wingload?
...mikeCool

155 exit weight. Wingload around 1.3


mikkey  (D License)

May 29, 2003, 7:07 AM
Post #98 of 493 (1184 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Weel I have donwsized from 280 to 120 in 50 jumps. No problems here.

That is exactly the type of guy who will kill himself. 50 jumps and 1.3 on a 120 canopy. Remember him from another thread (dead man walking) where he claimed he was perfectly safe under this canopy because he stood up on most of his landings....

This is exactly the reason why I tend to agree with Ron.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

May 29, 2003, 7:12 AM
Post #99 of 493 (1178 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there a formal canopy coaching program in Finland, or a culture of actually listening to advice? Because if there is a downsizing culture, and Finns aren't hurting themselves disproportionately, then it'd be interesting to find out what the difference is.

It could be partly just that the lower summer temperature means that you have fewer low-density-air problems. It could be that instruction is better. It could be that the general physical fitness is better, or that you're more willing to PLF when needed. And it could be that Finns are smarter. But if the numbers are different for Finns from other countries, there's likely a reason in there.

Wendy W.


BMFin

May 29, 2003, 7:14 AM
Post #100 of 493 (1202 views)
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Re: [mikkey] Wingload BSR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Weel I have donwsized from 280 to 120 in 50 jumps. No problems here.

That is exactly the type of guy who will kill himself. 50 jumps and 1.3 on a 120 canopy. Remember him from another thread (dead man walking) where he claimed he was perfectly safe under this canopy because he stood up on most of his landings....

This is exactly the reason why I tend to agree with Ron.


I disagree. 1.3 after at my level is VERY normal here. That is the wingloading our instructors advice us to have at our level. We have much more aggressive wingloading culture here, but im pretty sure we have no more accidents then in US (maby less).

Now I do not know why would we be able to fly smaller canopies sooner. It could be our student program. (takes avg. 60 jumps to get our licence.) It could be something else. If you can come up with some Accident per jump and Incident per jump numbers we can start to compare.

You can study some of our statistics from my earlier post in this thread.


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