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USPA BOD Cliff's Notes

 

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chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 7, 2014, 10:28 AM
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Re: [MidwestFreefall] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

MidwestFreefall wrote:
Having streaming cameras in the room won't change anything in terms of board behavior.

I don't have an opinion on the use of video - live or otherwise - for BOD meetings and it may not change anyone's "behavior". However, giving members easy, free access to the meetings might dramatically increase the size of the audience and that can only be a good thing. It is after all a membership organization.

It may also change the way members vote in subsequent elections since many more would know the details of discussions, the positions of directors, the way they vote, and why.

Answer me this. As I understand it there is a standing offer on the table to stream video at no cost to the organization. Since this would give access to any member with enough interest to tune in, why would we NOT want to do it?

No cost + benefit to the members - minus no downside = why not?


wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 7, 2014, 10:34 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

The downside I can see is people picking up on recorded soundbites and turning them into cause celebres, just as happens in national politics today.

As long as people assume the worst, rather than the best, I'm not sure I'd agree there's no downside. People would have to be exceedingly careful to qualify everything they said, and even less would be done than is the case now.

I personally think that's a shame. The BOD is no bunch of unerring geniuses, but most of them really aren't in it for the money Tongue

Wendy P.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 7, 2014, 11:26 AM
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Re: [wmw999] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

wmw999 wrote:
The downside I can see is people picking up on recorded soundbites and turning them into cause celebres, just as happens in national politics today.

As long as people assume the worst, rather than the best, I'm not sure I'd agree there's no downside. People would have to be exceedingly careful to qualify everything they said, and even less would be done than is the case now.

I personally think that's a shame. The BOD is no bunch of unerring geniuses, but most of them really aren't in it for the money Tongue

Wendy P.

The potential behavior (sound-biting with an agenda) on the part of a few is not a valid reason to turn away a benefit to the membership. Additionally, the video could be made available in its entirety on the USPA website for review at will. That would serve to dispel any misunderstandings from sound bites and create a historically accurate record.

Besides, the same argument could be made by those who want the video aired. Members seeing/hearing the discussions as they actually occurred would make them fully informed. What we get now are sound bites in the form of often highly opinionated versions of the happenings at the meetings. I often hear & read summaries of meeting discussions that very widely. Video of meetings would keep things in context and let the viewers see exactly what occurred.

As I said in an earlier post, I don't really have a opinion on the video issue. However, a few bad seeds that want to stir up crap for their cause should not be a reason not to do it. The tail should not wag the dog.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Mar 7, 2014, 12:13 PM
Post #29 of 57 (1959 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
What we get now are sound bites in the form of often highly opinionated versions of the happenings at the meetings. I often hear & read summaries of meeting discussions that very widely.

Very true. I've attended two meetings myself, and in both cases there were some fairly "heated" topics on the agenda, with highly opinionated supporters on either side. If you'd tried to tell what really happened from any of their Facebook posts, it would have been like trying to figure out what someone actually said in a Congressional hearing, not by watching C-SPAN but from reading writeups from the Daily Kos and Breitbart News. CrazyTongue


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 7, 2014, 1:31 PM
Post #30 of 57 (1906 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

NWFlyer wrote:
If you'd tried to tell what really happened from any of their Facebook posts, it would have been like trying to figure out what someone actually said in a Congressional hearing, not by watching C-SPAN but from reading writeups from the Daily Kos and Breitbart News. CrazyTongue


Reading the Onion, more likely.Tongue

BOD member; "Sit down and be quiet. It's clear you don't know anything about this motion."

As reported on the web; "We siad what we came to say, we knocked out the opposition, and we won this battle for everyone! You're welcome."

Tongue

Doing this on my own dime can be done, but doing so without board cooperation means scrambling and no respect for the time it takes to turn on/off equipment, move things out of the way, and no cooperation. It's also disrespectful if people don't want to be streamed/recorded. I have no problem annoying members of the board sometimes, but a full-time annoyance? Not my style.

There certainly are BOD members that want to see this happen, and want to see technical progress.
THen there are BOD members that say one thing to the public membership and another thing when seated at the table. Most of the BOD are really great people, some of them care very much about seeing USPA grow into it's next generation, and a few even have great passion for making new things happen to reflect the changing times. Unfortunately, the "old guard" is willing to do whatever necessary to thwart progress.

Some things are simply absurd, however.
Delivering the IRM in print-only is one of them. For 6 years, we've had the ability to deliver e-versions. It's better for the membership, it's a cash cow by comparison to the organization.
Instant gratification for the buyer.
No more printing costs (there is a lotta paper in those books)
No more shipping costs (all that paper is damn heavy)
No more lugging from place to place (reads very nicely on an iPhone, Droid, tablet, laptop, or desktop)

Readers can choose which sections to print. USPA can set the number of allowable prints per copy, and if serious anal retention is required, USPA can track every print.
Can it be pirated? Sure...with significant effort (not much different than the IRM pages can be torn out, Xeroxed, and shared).


(This post was edited by DSE on Mar 7, 2014, 1:38 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 7, 2014, 1:57 PM
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Re: [DSE] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE wrote:
Some things are simply absurd, however.
Delivering the IRM in print-only is one of them. For 6 years, we've had the ability to deliver e-versions. It's better for the membership, it's a cash cow by comparison to the organization.

Any idea what the opposition is to this or some variation of it?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 7, 2014, 2:13 PM
Post #32 of 57 (1865 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been told that "it's just too easy for people to copy/steal."

It's not. Jay Stokes was pushing to see this happen when he was pres. I haven't spoken to Sherry Butcher about it since she took office, but she's so damn progressive and tech-smart, I'd be stunned if she was opposed.

My guess is that someone at USPA wants to protect their job.

Look to CSPA for a very good example of how this can be done. The training videos we have for AFF for example, can be embedded straight into the publication. No more searching for video, it's a true rich media "resource."

https://vimeo.com/5198174
https://vimeo.com/11609685

Imagine these videos playable directly from inside the IRM? As a reminder, refresher, single-point repository?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 7, 2014, 2:38 PM
Post #33 of 57 (1838 views)
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Re: [wmw999] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

wmw999 wrote:
The downside I can see is people picking up on recorded soundbites and turning them into cause celebres, just as happens in national politics today. .

Sorry to be blunt, but: Tough shit. In 1891 the great Louis Brandeis wrote If the broad light of day could be let in upon mens actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects. He later shortened it to "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." To this day, open public governance disclosure laws are commonly referred-to as "Sunshine Laws". That's no coincidence.

The only thing worse than the potential for undisciplined mischief flowing full public disclosure is... any system providing less than that. In an open membership organization such as the USPA, it is simply inexcusable to not have full disclosure of BOD members' debates and votes, and equally inexcusable to fail to record and disseminate meetings when the when the means is clearly and easily there.

Shame on anything less. Period, full stop.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 7, 2014, 2:42 PM
Post #34 of 57 (1826 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, full disclosure is wonderful. I'm talking about the live BOD-cam. Make 'em actually read the transcript before taking stuff out of context!

Wendy P.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 7, 2014, 2:59 PM
Post #35 of 57 (1798 views)
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Re: [wmw999] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

wmw999 wrote:
Make 'em actually read .

If college freshmen can't read, what makes you think skydivers can?


fencebuster  (D 29918)

Mar 7, 2014, 6:12 PM
Post #36 of 57 (1739 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

I think streaming would be a good thing. Chuck makes good points and I am solidly in favor of it. I attended the Board meeting in March last year and was privileged to see the discussion on the Wingsuit Instructor rating. My opposition notwithstanding, I thought the Board did a good job of giving everyone the opportunity to be heard. Streaming, if the membership actually chooses to follow it and watch, is a good thing, IMO.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 7, 2014, 10:34 PM
Post #37 of 57 (1677 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Diablo,
It is virtually impossible to vote by name on every vote or motion based on the fact it would slow things down, but with that said, myself and a good majority of directors voted by name on any important issue. I would be happy to share my vote on any topic and my rationale for the vote. You may not agree with me on some of them but I can honestly say I try my best. As I believe most if not all do the same.


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 8, 2014, 5:07 AM
Post #38 of 57 (1619 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My guess is that someone at USPA wants to protect their job.

Who would that be? Whose job would be eliminated?

(Hint: nobody. DSE is full of shit)


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 8, 2014, 5:46 AM
Post #39 of 57 (1612 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy9o8 wrote:
wmw999 wrote:
The downside I can see is people picking up on recorded soundbites and turning them into cause celebres, just as happens in national politics today. .

Sorry to be blunt, but: Tough shit. In 1891 the great Louis Brandeis wrote If the broad light of day could be let in upon mens actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects. He later shortened it to "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." To this day, open public governance disclosure laws are commonly referred-to as "Sunshine Laws". That's no coincidence.

The only thing worse than the potential for undisciplined mischief flowing full public disclosure is... any system providing less than that. In an open membership organization such as the USPA, it is simply inexcusable to not have full disclosure of BOD members' debates and votes, and equally inexcusable to fail to record and disseminate meetings when the when the means is clearly and easily there.

Shame on anything less. Period, full stop.

This x 35,000+.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 8, 2014, 5:48 AM
Post #40 of 57 (1609 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Para5-0 wrote:
Diablo,
It is virtually impossible to vote by name on every vote or motion based on the fact it would slow things down, but with that said, myself and a good majority of directors voted by name on any important issue. I would be happy to share my vote on any topic and my rationale for the vote. You may not agree with me on some of them but I can honestly say I try my best. As I believe most if not all do the same.

Pardon my french, but horse shit. I've been to far more meeting than you and it wouldn't cost time at all.


starkmtn  (D 22770)

Mar 8, 2014, 8:33 AM
Post #41 of 57 (1563 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

diablopilot wrote:
Para5-0 wrote:
Diablo,
It is virtually impossible to vote by name on every vote or motion based on the fact it would slow things down, but with that said, myself and a good majority of directors voted by name on any important issue. I would be happy to share my vote on any topic and my rationale for the vote. You may not agree with me on some of them but I can honestly say I try my best. As I believe most if not all do the same.

Pardon my french, but horse shit. I've been to far more meeting than you and it wouldn't cost time at all.

Yeah, I'm calling BS on this too, as someone with experience on two different boards, one of which I'm still on. Now, we meet 9-10x a year, so we don't ever have as much on one agenda, but it's pretty damn easy (and I say this as one who served as secretary of my current Board for several years) to record who the ayes, nays, and abstentions are. Has it slowed things down by a few seconds each vote sometimes? Sure. But it's been worth it for the transparency, because we have vocal shareholders who demand it. Maybe if more of us demanded similar transparency from USPA, it would be done.

And Para5, I don't doubt that you personally would be glad to share your views. But not everyone is. With as many directors as there are on USPA's board, it's a huge barrier to put up to ask each individual member to email every director to ask how they voted rather than to just publish the votes in the minutes. For example: I wrote to every single director about an issue that was on this March's agenda and was important to me. I got _six_ replies, only three of which actually indicated their own inclinations as far as voting would go. So even if a member is able to take the time to email all the directors, they aren't in any way guaranteed the information. Plus, that's a LOT of email to ask directors to answer. Why not just make it very easy for members to find out how the directors voted and what got said by whom in meetings (_including_ committee meetings, which is where the meat and potatoes are)?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 8, 2014, 10:01 AM
Post #42 of 57 (1546 views)
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Re: [DanG] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you ever laid out a book Dan? It's a time-consuming process, especially with something like the IRM.

An e-version can be appended in a matter of a day or so, and done locally (not hired out).
I'm not intimate with how USPA produces the IRM, but it's obvious that it's not laid out for e-pub. That alone means it's using a lot of time.
There are only two reasons to take a lot of time on what technology has made very simple:
-Ignorance of technology and ability to spend unnecessary funds
or
-A desire to continue doing things "the old way" because it maintains an illusion of a great deal of time expended (thus justifying a job).

A week spent laying out an epub will pay large dividends in unspent man-hours over future years.
I just completed an update on a 570 page epub I wrote 2 years ago. It took an afternoon to update the entire epub vs what used to take nearly 3 months.

Or perhaps you're right; I'm just full of shit.
Therefore, why is the IRM not available via e-pub?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 9, 2014, 8:25 AM
Post #43 of 57 (1457 views)
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Re: [DanG] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

DanG wrote:
In reply to:
My guess is that someone at USPA wants to protect their job.

Who would that be? Whose job would be eliminated?

(Hint: nobody. DSE is full of shit)

Dan, are comments like that really necessary?

(Hint: no they aren't)


Krip  (Student)

Mar 9, 2014, 3:19 PM
Post #44 of 57 (1395 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
DanG wrote:
In reply to:
My guess is that someone at USPA wants to protect their job.

Who would that be? Whose job would be eliminated?

(Hint: nobody. DSE is full of shit)

Dan, are comments like that really necessary?

(Hint: no they aren't)





Good for you Mr Ackers. Smile +1

Dan if you have a issue with DSE why don't you talk to him via PM.Crazy


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 9, 2014, 9:49 PM
Post #45 of 57 (1335 views)
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Re: [wmw999] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

wmw999 wrote:
The downside I can see is people picking up on recorded soundbites and turning them into cause celebres, just as happens in national politics today. ...

.............................................................................

Sometimes elected politicians have to "speak to the audience back home," ... for example: many of the foolish speeches made by the last Prime Minister of Iran.
Hah!
Hah!


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 10, 2014, 5:15 AM
Post #46 of 57 (1285 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not intimate with how USPA produces the IRM...

So you really don't know, you're just guessing.

In reply to:
There are only two reasons to take a lot of time on what technology has made very simple:
-Ignorance of technology and ability to spend unnecessary funds
or
-A desire to continue doing things "the old way" because it maintains an illusion of a great deal of time expended (thus justifying a job).

Yeah, those are the only two possibilities. Or, it could be something else that doesn't fit your USPA Evil Empire worldview.

You never answered my question. Which of the two people who work on the IRM (and keep in mind that working on the IRM takes up maybe 10% of their time at most) is trying to protect their job by keeping it in paper format? You're such an expert on USPA, is it Jim or Elijia who's sandbagging?

In reply to:
Or perhaps you're right; I'm just full of shit.

Yeah, perhaps.


ChrisD  (No License)

Mar 10, 2014, 7:33 AM
Post #47 of 57 (1257 views)
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Re: [DanG] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

DanG wrote:
In reply to:
I'm not intimate with how USPA produces the IRM...

So you really don't know, you're just guessing.

In reply to:
There are only two reasons to take a lot of time on what technology has made very simple:
-Ignorance of technology and ability to spend unnecessary funds
or
-A desire to continue doing things "the old way" because it maintains an illusion of a great deal of time expended (thus justifying a job).

Yeah, those are the only two possibilities. Or, it could be something else that doesn't fit your USPA Evil Empire worldview.

You never answered my question. Which of the two people who work on the IRM (and keep in mind that working on the IRM takes up maybe 10% of their time at most) is trying to protect their job by keeping it in paper format? You're such an expert on USPA, is it Jim or Elijia who's sandbagging?

In reply to:
Or perhaps you're right; I'm just full of shit.

Yeah, perhaps.

Your wonderful comments, are very similar in nature to DSE's comments, I think both of you are kind of doing what I do, On occasion, and that is, kind of to bait and provoke to promote a little discussion. It doesn't always work the way you intended it too. Tongue

I would suggest someone pick up the phone and give them a call. I know that laidlaw spent considerable time providing valuable input to the IRM, and rewriting it by others is a very "committee" type of thing, and we all know how committees move at a certain speed.

I do want to point out that not everything benefits by technology. I have asked multiple times in the past "why isn't the IRM available in an electronic format," and I really don't think anyone is trying to justify their job as compared with maximizing the benefits of having a paper copy, in your hand, at the time of many of the courses are being run. I was also informed that they have a concern about electronic duplication, and considering over 35% of current skydivers are computer savvy,...they want to hold onto their monetary investment that multiple people have already spent. This is of course another discussion considering the USPA posted a budget surplus for this past year. I don't know for sure either, so this is a question statement, but are they trying to maximixe the limited income these things produce, or is it more of controlling distribution? many times, well a really lot of times, again and again, I have heard this:

Quote:
since you really do not have any of the experience you claim to have and post opinions like they are factual information that other inexperienced jumpers may take as fact I am removing your posting abilities to those forums to limit the harm you might do with your inexperienced postings.


Or something similar?????

I mean what's good for the
goose is good for the Gander right? I just wanted to throw out that line of reasoning for discussion,....I mean god forbid some newbie read something they shouldn't???? And the IRM is meant for instructors,...(only?) ???

Just my two cents for today.


AND neither one of you is full of anything, your both wonderful people so stop throwing stuff at each other, that's what I'm here for,....
C


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Mar 10, 2014, 7:49 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 10, 2014, 9:43 AM
Post #48 of 57 (1206 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

CrazyCrazyCrazy


Fast  (D 28237)

Mar 12, 2014, 2:27 PM
Post #49 of 57 (1076 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a super side issue to the thread, but it's always flabbergasted me that the IRM is paper only.

Make a paper copy cost a reasonable markup to the actual print cost + shipping. Distribute the electronic version for free, downloadable and printable. Recoup IRM cost on the backside in the rating application fee.

I just don't get it. It would save a lot of trees and shipping and printing. It would also make it easier for wannabe instructors to get ahold of the material to know how to study.

It's a total lack of thinking outside the box and embracing technology. I have been complaining to USPA for years about the fact that their website is broken in Safari/Chrome/Webkit/Firefox. Excuse after excuse after excuse. I even offered to fix it for them. The first time "not enough people use those web browsers" then "we'll look into it" then "well we are getting a new membership database, can't fix it till after that".

YEARS, our national professional organization can't fix a simple web glitch. It's mind boggling to me.


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 12, 2014, 5:22 PM
Post #50 of 57 (1039 views)
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Re: [Fast] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
YEARS, our national professional organization can't fix a simple web glitch. It's mind boggling to me.

Well that would cost money and we don't have extra money to pay for that shit, we have pay for the PR firm!


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