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USPA BOD Cliff's Notes

 


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Mar 3, 2014, 9:57 AM
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USPA BOD Cliff's Notes Can't Post

I miss Diablopilot's play by play on the BOD meeting.

Anything interesting this session other than the min age and lifetime membership changes?

I did hear rumor that there was a Kansas Skydiver or two there who may have made an impression. Not consistent with or to be considered stereotypical of Kansans in general!

Martin


(This post was edited by skydived19006 on Mar 3, 2014, 9:58 AM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Mar 3, 2014, 1:20 PM
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Here's the highly santizied official release.
http://www.uspa.org/...9/Default.aspx#36995

Other posts from their FB page over the weekend:

Quote:
We would like to welcome Michael Wadkins as the next USPA North Central Regional Director. Wadkins was elected by the board of directors to serve the remainder of the current term.

Quote:
As one of the first proponents of the U.S. Parachute Team Trust Fund, Michael Truffer showed his support even after his passing. His partner Sue Clifton has presented a check of $400,000, which Mike left to the fund in his will.

But that's just the official stuff. Of course we want gossip. Devil


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 3, 2014, 1:29 PM
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skydived19006 wrote:
I miss Diablopilot's play by play on the BOD meeting.
Martin

I miss going, but can't really justify the $800 to $1000 a meeting it was costing me to go. Amazing that the BOD hasn't embraced the virtual telepresence that's been demonstrated.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Mar 3, 2014, 3:07 PM
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diablopilot wrote:
skydived19006 wrote:
I miss Diablopilot's play by play on the BOD meeting.
Martin

I miss going, but can't really justify the $800 to $1000 a meeting it was costing me to go. Amazing that the BOD hasn't embraced the virtual telepresence that's been demonstrated.

Oh, I respect the cost of dollars and time required to attend. I only attended once, and had a few items that I was particularly interested at that time. It was a nice learning experience, but pretty much seen the elephant at this point. Jen Sharp did email me a few points. I may give a third hand info post from what she wrote.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 3, 2014, 3:08 PM
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diablopilot wrote:
skydived19006 wrote:
I miss Diablopilot's play by play on the BOD meeting.
Martin

I miss going, but can't really justify the $800 to $1000 a meeting it was costing me to go. Amazing that the BOD hasn't embraced the virtual telepresence that's been demonstrated.


JP, why would you find this amazing?

Sparky


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 3, 2014, 3:51 PM
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Quote:
Amazing that the BOD hasn't embraced the virtual telepresence that's been demonstrated.


Didn't they try it once?

http://youtu.be/uTmfwklFM-M


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 3, 2014, 7:30 PM
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airtwardo wrote:
Quote:
Amazing that the BOD hasn't embraced the virtual telepresence that's been demonstrated.


Didn't they try it once?

http://youtu.be/uTmfwklFM-M

Well played sir. :-)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 3, 2014, 7:33 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

It would have been easier, it's been brought up for nearly every session since around 2006? Glen Bangs was still prez when I first proposed it.
Then last year, at least one BOD member (I believe it was two) and one person not on the board "let" outsiders see/hear closed sessions over Skype. I was present (outside the room) when it happened. Knowledge of salaries leaked out over Facebook.

One member of the board tried to skip the entire BOD process and Skype in only for a controversial session as well. Fortunately the board took a quick vote and decided that doing so wasn't permissible.

I've offered (several times) to fund USPA BOD meetings being streamed live. Nothing needs to come INTO the meeting, but membership (I believe) would benefit from seeing the process occur, and writing their BOD members.
For example, a proposal was sneaked in under everyone's noses during this past session; it would have been nice to know about it more than 4 days before the session, and failing that notice, at least the membership could have known of the proposal before it was passed.
I hope Jan and other BOD members are reading this thread. The live streams (archived for later viewing) of PIA was easy. No funding required. Membership will volunteer.


(This post was edited by DSE on Mar 3, 2014, 7:39 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 3, 2014, 7:47 PM
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diablopilot wrote:
airtwardo wrote:
Quote:
Amazing that the BOD hasn't embraced the virtual telepresence that's been demonstrated.


Didn't they try it once?

http://youtu.be/uTmfwklFM-M

Well played sir. :-)

+1


MakeItHappen

Mar 4, 2014, 12:06 PM
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DSE wrote:
It would have been easier, it's been brought up for nearly every session since around 2006? Glen Bangs was still prez when I first proposed it.
Then last year, at least one BOD member (I believe it was two) and one person not on the board "let" outsiders see/hear closed sessions over Skype. I was present (outside the room) when it happened. Knowledge of salaries leaked out over Facebook.

One member of the board tried to skip the entire BOD process and Skype in only for a controversial session as well. Fortunately the board took a quick vote and decided that doing so wasn't permissible.

I've offered (several times) to fund USPA BOD meetings being streamed live. Nothing needs to come INTO the meeting, but membership (I believe) would benefit from seeing the process occur, and writing their BOD members.
For example, a proposal was sneaked in under everyone's noses during this past session; it would have been nice to know about it more than 4 days before the session, and failing that notice, at least the membership could have known of the proposal before it was passed.
I hope Jan and other BOD members are reading this thread. The live streams (archived for later viewing) of PIA was easy. No funding required. Membership will volunteer.

I am reading this thread.

I believe the last time we tried this we wanted to have a hard wire internet connection and that came with additional (significant) fees.

You really can't depend on the hotel's wifi to be reliable enough for a live video stream.
In LV, it was VERY spotty, disconnected all the time.

Perhaps, just an audio feed might work at first.
But with a hard wire connection video is the way to go.

Unless you can give me remote point and zoom controls of the camera, we need a camera operator.

Years ago I used to bring a wireless router to set up a LAN so that it was easier to trade files.
Before that we used the pass the thumb drive around technique.

Internet is much more convenient.

And the two BOD members that broadcasted the meeting via Skype are no longer on the BOD.
BTW, salaries that are disclosed are also publicly available in the 990 submitted to the IRS.
Why there is such a big issue about this at the meetings is a mystery to me.

Most of the plenary sessions are very boring. Sunday's is the one that is interesting.
Committee meetings vary in intensity depending upon what issues are brought forward.

I definitely will support and help in any way to get the meeting live-casted.


.


(This post was edited by MakeItHappen on Mar 4, 2014, 12:08 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 4, 2014, 12:32 PM
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I cast regularly (every 60 days) from various hotels in Vegas, using a 4G puck. Bandwidth is exceptionally small for 720p video. This is part of what I do, and USPA's been made aware of this for years. The issues are not in any way technological, and have not been technical for at least 5 years.

The membership would be plenty happy with a wide lens showing the entire BOD, a cam op is not necessary. The _only_ reason to not stream it is USPA not wanting to stream it. I've heard all sorts of reasons, and none of them make sense.
Yes, it's an extra thing to turn off during closed sessions. it's as simple as an off switch, or a USB cable disconnect.

The biggest overall inconvenience for the plenary sessions, is where PowerPoints would be best shared with the viewing audience, and that can be done by pre-loading.
Sessions like this are done every day, in the most remote places, all over the planet, via organizations significantly less capable than the USPA.
Technology is in no way a barrier. If we can stream live video from a NASCAR vehicle doing 190mph around a track, we can certainly easily stream a bunch of DZOs sitting around a U-Shaped table.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Mar 4, 2014, 1:49 PM
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NWFlyer wrote:

But that's just the official stuff. Of course we want gossip. Devil

New BSR: Effective May 1, all first-time skydivers in the U.S. must be 18 years of age.

Since age has nothing to do with safety "Basic Safety Requirements", maybe the BOD could write a new BSR to eliminate boiler room booking operations!! Ohhh! Has it been long enough that we can even joke about that?? Well, of course we can, this is a dropzone.com thread after all.

New Basic Safety Requirement: The use of any extendable or fixed-pole camera mount, attached or handheld, by a tandem instructor or tandem student is prohibited.

I have a picture clipped out of Parachutist from the late 80s, or early 90s of a tandem pair with pole mounted 35mm camera. Kevin Knoll and Damian Hrdlicka were tandem instructors. About time this practice was eliminated!


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 5, 2014, 6:15 AM
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If someone wants to make the USPA feel a bit old fashioned, or get them feeling more competitive...
remind them that in the last couple years, we hicks up in Canada with about 1/10th the members have had streaming of our CSPA AGM. Smile


kuai43  (C License)

Mar 5, 2014, 6:21 AM
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Quote:
we can certainly easily stream a bunch of DZOs sitting around a U-Shaped table.

This is most likely the reason.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 5, 2014, 6:41 AM
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There certainly are members of the BOD that want to see the meetings streamed. It's unfortunate that we're well into the next century and the BOD can't find their way to taking technology on.

I've offered my efforts at no cost:
-Secure online delivery of the IRM for Kindle/e-pubs, with background security so the docs can't be easily passed around/copied/printed.
-Live Streaming of the BOD meetings

Neither have been taken.
Yeah, CSPA seems to have a lot of this well in hand, but the CSPA doesn't seem to have the same kind of turf wars or personal agendas. Maybe that's a Canadian thing?Wink


starkmtn  (D 22770)

Mar 5, 2014, 5:41 PM
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So let's start writing to our RD's and the ND's and asking for streaming of July's meeting!


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 5, 2014, 5:53 PM
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As you know I am all for this and will support it in anyway I can.
Rich Winstock


PiLFy  (A License)

Mar 6, 2014, 4:34 AM
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Let's see. Doug, you offered USPA's BOD a seamless, secure solution at no cost. We members want this to happen. Clearly, the only reason some BOD members are blocking it, is they have things to hide.

Am I missing some part of the picture? It seems pretty obvious what is happening.


Premier MidwestFreefall  (D 11112)

Mar 6, 2014, 8:46 AM
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There's no point in trying to stream the meeting - no one could see anything that was happening due to the fact that the room is smoke filled, and all of the side deals happen in the shadows! Smile


PiLFy  (A License)

Mar 6, 2014, 5:34 PM
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MidwestFreefall wrote:
There's no point in trying to stream the meeting - no one could see anything that was happening due to the fact that the room is smoke filled, and all of the side deals happen in the shadows! Smile

Good humor always has some truth in it... A majority of USPA BOD members have pulled some crap in those shadows that needs to be outed. The longer they refuse to acquiesce on the demand for more transparency. The more damage they'll do. Sticking a couple of cameras in the room won't detract from the meeting process one iota. It WILL show us exactly who is acting against the memberships' wishes, though. IMO, they've already done enough damage. This needs to happen.


Premier MidwestFreefall  (D 11112)

Mar 6, 2014, 5:57 PM
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Re: [PiLFy] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reality, the meeting is open and the board welcomes anyone who chooses to attend. Having streaming cameras in the room won't change anything in terms of board behavior. I would recommend that those who are inclined to watch the proceedings, should this transpire, pick up and read a copy of Roberts Rules so you understand how things work. There will be times, however, when we close the meeting to discuss individuals and/or disciplinary actions, and the cameras would need to be shut off for those sessions. Don't be shocked if that happens.

I believe we are transparent in our dealings. I personally have nothing to hide.

Randy Allison
USPA Mideastern Regional Director
USPA Vice President


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 6, 2014, 6:44 PM
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Quote:
A majority of USPA BOD members have pulled some crap in those shadows that needs to be outed.

And you know this how? Do you know this as fact or are you assuming it? How many of the BOD members have talked to or even met? Have you ever attended a BOD meeting?

Sparky


PiLFy  (A License)

Mar 7, 2014, 3:59 AM
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mjosparky wrote:
Quote:
A majority of USPA BOD members have pulled some crap in those shadows that needs to be outed.

And you know this how? Do you know this as fact or are you assuming it? How many of the BOD members have talked to or even met? Have you ever attended a BOD meeting?

Sparky

No time this morning, Spark. You seem determined to pick a fight w/me, again. Have fun w/that... Below is a PM of mine in reply to someone else. Nope, never been to a meeting. Most of us can't. That's the whole point.

"USPA started leaving a bad taste in my mouth when they decided to no longer allow A-license cards to be accepted as licenses. They made a money grab. Their excuse that a few instructors weren't filling the cards out properly was exceedingly lame. It was a blatant money-grab, & was called so by a number of BOD members. I, & I'm sure many others, would've loved to see & hear the BOD members who pushed that measure through. Then, USPA decided to field their own Demo team, & aggressively push that team over other teams. Other Teams comprised of USPA members who spent decades building up their businesses in making Demos. That was such a foul pill that I wonder why revolution didn't break out right then & there.

Now, this move to increase a lifetime membership by 250%? I smell an attitude of entitlement @USPA. Govt. POSs sit back, & levy one theft after another on its citizens because they feel we're not ready to overthrow them, yet. Many USPA BOD members seem to think that they too, are a Govt. entity that can get away w/all sorts of garbage. I disagree. Rogue DZs function just fine w/o USPA. Their insisting on continuing to take detrimental actions to the sport will drive the membership to boycott USPA.

I've met a couple of USPA BOD members. They're both good guys. They both voted against the crap I cited above. Sticking a couple of cameras in the room at their meetings would show exactly which members are acting against the memberships' wishes, & who is fighting the good fight."



DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 7, 2014, 5:36 AM
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In reply to:
There certainly are members of the BOD that want to see the meetings streamed. It's unfortunate that we're well into the next century and the BOD can't find their way to taking technology on.

I've offered my efforts at no cost:
-Secure online delivery of the IRM for Kindle/e-pubs, with background security so the docs can't be easily passed around/copied/printed.
-Live Streaming of the BOD meetings

Neither have been taken.
Yeah, CSPA seems to have a lot of this well in hand, but the CSPA doesn't seem to have the same kind of turf wars or personal agendas. Maybe that's a Canadian thing?Wink

Why do you need the Board's approval? If you're not going to be charging USPA anything, and the meetings are open to all members, why not just do it on your own?


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 7, 2014, 6:40 AM
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MidwestFreefall wrote:
In reality, the meeting is open and the board welcomes anyone who chooses to attend. Having streaming cameras in the room won't change anything in terms of board behavior. I would recommend that those who are inclined to watch the proceedings, should this transpire, pick up and read a copy of Roberts Rules so you understand how things work. There will be times, however, when we close the meeting to discuss individuals and/or disciplinary actions, and the cameras would need to be shut off for those sessions. Don't be shocked if that happens.

I believe we are transparent in our dealings. I personally have nothing to hide.

Randy Allison
USPA Mideastern Regional Director
USPA Vice President


This does not reflect on my opinion of you, I know that you are a stand up straight forward guy, but why is it that anytime I've asked how board members voted on a specific issue, I've received a response that has has told me a maximum of 3 peoples vote? No matter who I ask. It's been asked multiple times by multiple people of the BOD that all members votes be recorded as a member of record. Why doesn't this happen?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 7, 2014, 10:28 AM
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MidwestFreefall wrote:
Having streaming cameras in the room won't change anything in terms of board behavior.

I don't have an opinion on the use of video - live or otherwise - for BOD meetings and it may not change anyone's "behavior". However, giving members easy, free access to the meetings might dramatically increase the size of the audience and that can only be a good thing. It is after all a membership organization.

It may also change the way members vote in subsequent elections since many more would know the details of discussions, the positions of directors, the way they vote, and why.

Answer me this. As I understand it there is a standing offer on the table to stream video at no cost to the organization. Since this would give access to any member with enough interest to tune in, why would we NOT want to do it?

No cost + benefit to the members - minus no downside = why not?


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 7, 2014, 10:34 AM
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The downside I can see is people picking up on recorded soundbites and turning them into cause celebres, just as happens in national politics today.

As long as people assume the worst, rather than the best, I'm not sure I'd agree there's no downside. People would have to be exceedingly careful to qualify everything they said, and even less would be done than is the case now.

I personally think that's a shame. The BOD is no bunch of unerring geniuses, but most of them really aren't in it for the money Tongue

Wendy P.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 7, 2014, 11:26 AM
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wmw999 wrote:
The downside I can see is people picking up on recorded soundbites and turning them into cause celebres, just as happens in national politics today.

As long as people assume the worst, rather than the best, I'm not sure I'd agree there's no downside. People would have to be exceedingly careful to qualify everything they said, and even less would be done than is the case now.

I personally think that's a shame. The BOD is no bunch of unerring geniuses, but most of them really aren't in it for the money Tongue

Wendy P.

The potential behavior (sound-biting with an agenda) on the part of a few is not a valid reason to turn away a benefit to the membership. Additionally, the video could be made available in its entirety on the USPA website for review at will. That would serve to dispel any misunderstandings from sound bites and create a historically accurate record.

Besides, the same argument could be made by those who want the video aired. Members seeing/hearing the discussions as they actually occurred would make them fully informed. What we get now are sound bites in the form of often highly opinionated versions of the happenings at the meetings. I often hear & read summaries of meeting discussions that very widely. Video of meetings would keep things in context and let the viewers see exactly what occurred.

As I said in an earlier post, I don't really have a opinion on the video issue. However, a few bad seeds that want to stir up crap for their cause should not be a reason not to do it. The tail should not wag the dog.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Mar 7, 2014, 12:13 PM
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chuckakers wrote:
What we get now are sound bites in the form of often highly opinionated versions of the happenings at the meetings. I often hear & read summaries of meeting discussions that very widely.

Very true. I've attended two meetings myself, and in both cases there were some fairly "heated" topics on the agenda, with highly opinionated supporters on either side. If you'd tried to tell what really happened from any of their Facebook posts, it would have been like trying to figure out what someone actually said in a Congressional hearing, not by watching C-SPAN but from reading writeups from the Daily Kos and Breitbart News. CrazyTongue


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 7, 2014, 1:31 PM
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NWFlyer wrote:
If you'd tried to tell what really happened from any of their Facebook posts, it would have been like trying to figure out what someone actually said in a Congressional hearing, not by watching C-SPAN but from reading writeups from the Daily Kos and Breitbart News. CrazyTongue


Reading the Onion, more likely.Tongue

BOD member; "Sit down and be quiet. It's clear you don't know anything about this motion."

As reported on the web; "We siad what we came to say, we knocked out the opposition, and we won this battle for everyone! You're welcome."

Tongue

Doing this on my own dime can be done, but doing so without board cooperation means scrambling and no respect for the time it takes to turn on/off equipment, move things out of the way, and no cooperation. It's also disrespectful if people don't want to be streamed/recorded. I have no problem annoying members of the board sometimes, but a full-time annoyance? Not my style.

There certainly are BOD members that want to see this happen, and want to see technical progress.
THen there are BOD members that say one thing to the public membership and another thing when seated at the table. Most of the BOD are really great people, some of them care very much about seeing USPA grow into it's next generation, and a few even have great passion for making new things happen to reflect the changing times. Unfortunately, the "old guard" is willing to do whatever necessary to thwart progress.

Some things are simply absurd, however.
Delivering the IRM in print-only is one of them. For 6 years, we've had the ability to deliver e-versions. It's better for the membership, it's a cash cow by comparison to the organization.
Instant gratification for the buyer.
No more printing costs (there is a lotta paper in those books)
No more shipping costs (all that paper is damn heavy)
No more lugging from place to place (reads very nicely on an iPhone, Droid, tablet, laptop, or desktop)

Readers can choose which sections to print. USPA can set the number of allowable prints per copy, and if serious anal retention is required, USPA can track every print.
Can it be pirated? Sure...with significant effort (not much different than the IRM pages can be torn out, Xeroxed, and shared).


(This post was edited by DSE on Mar 7, 2014, 1:38 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 7, 2014, 1:57 PM
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DSE wrote:
Some things are simply absurd, however.
Delivering the IRM in print-only is one of them. For 6 years, we've had the ability to deliver e-versions. It's better for the membership, it's a cash cow by comparison to the organization.

Any idea what the opposition is to this or some variation of it?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 7, 2014, 2:13 PM
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I've been told that "it's just too easy for people to copy/steal."

It's not. Jay Stokes was pushing to see this happen when he was pres. I haven't spoken to Sherry Butcher about it since she took office, but she's so damn progressive and tech-smart, I'd be stunned if she was opposed.

My guess is that someone at USPA wants to protect their job.

Look to CSPA for a very good example of how this can be done. The training videos we have for AFF for example, can be embedded straight into the publication. No more searching for video, it's a true rich media "resource."

https://vimeo.com/5198174
https://vimeo.com/11609685

Imagine these videos playable directly from inside the IRM? As a reminder, refresher, single-point repository?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 7, 2014, 2:38 PM
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wmw999 wrote:
The downside I can see is people picking up on recorded soundbites and turning them into cause celebres, just as happens in national politics today. .

Sorry to be blunt, but: Tough shit. In 1891 the great Louis Brandeis wrote If the broad light of day could be let in upon mens actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects. He later shortened it to "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." To this day, open public governance disclosure laws are commonly referred-to as "Sunshine Laws". That's no coincidence.

The only thing worse than the potential for undisciplined mischief flowing full public disclosure is... any system providing less than that. In an open membership organization such as the USPA, it is simply inexcusable to not have full disclosure of BOD members' debates and votes, and equally inexcusable to fail to record and disseminate meetings when the when the means is clearly and easily there.

Shame on anything less. Period, full stop.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 7, 2014, 2:42 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, full disclosure is wonderful. I'm talking about the live BOD-cam. Make 'em actually read the transcript before taking stuff out of context!

Wendy P.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 7, 2014, 2:59 PM
Post #35 of 57 (1641 views)
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Re: [wmw999] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

wmw999 wrote:
Make 'em actually read .

If college freshmen can't read, what makes you think skydivers can?


fencebuster  (D 29918)

Mar 7, 2014, 6:12 PM
Post #36 of 57 (1582 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

I think streaming would be a good thing. Chuck makes good points and I am solidly in favor of it. I attended the Board meeting in March last year and was privileged to see the discussion on the Wingsuit Instructor rating. My opposition notwithstanding, I thought the Board did a good job of giving everyone the opportunity to be heard. Streaming, if the membership actually chooses to follow it and watch, is a good thing, IMO.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 7, 2014, 10:34 PM
Post #37 of 57 (1520 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Diablo,
It is virtually impossible to vote by name on every vote or motion based on the fact it would slow things down, but with that said, myself and a good majority of directors voted by name on any important issue. I would be happy to share my vote on any topic and my rationale for the vote. You may not agree with me on some of them but I can honestly say I try my best. As I believe most if not all do the same.


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 8, 2014, 5:07 AM
Post #38 of 57 (1462 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My guess is that someone at USPA wants to protect their job.

Who would that be? Whose job would be eliminated?

(Hint: nobody. DSE is full of shit)


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 8, 2014, 5:46 AM
Post #39 of 57 (1455 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy9o8 wrote:
wmw999 wrote:
The downside I can see is people picking up on recorded soundbites and turning them into cause celebres, just as happens in national politics today. .

Sorry to be blunt, but: Tough shit. In 1891 the great Louis Brandeis wrote If the broad light of day could be let in upon mens actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects. He later shortened it to "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." To this day, open public governance disclosure laws are commonly referred-to as "Sunshine Laws". That's no coincidence.

The only thing worse than the potential for undisciplined mischief flowing full public disclosure is... any system providing less than that. In an open membership organization such as the USPA, it is simply inexcusable to not have full disclosure of BOD members' debates and votes, and equally inexcusable to fail to record and disseminate meetings when the when the means is clearly and easily there.

Shame on anything less. Period, full stop.

This x 35,000+.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 8, 2014, 5:48 AM
Post #40 of 57 (1452 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Para5-0 wrote:
Diablo,
It is virtually impossible to vote by name on every vote or motion based on the fact it would slow things down, but with that said, myself and a good majority of directors voted by name on any important issue. I would be happy to share my vote on any topic and my rationale for the vote. You may not agree with me on some of them but I can honestly say I try my best. As I believe most if not all do the same.

Pardon my french, but horse shit. I've been to far more meeting than you and it wouldn't cost time at all.


starkmtn  (D 22770)

Mar 8, 2014, 8:33 AM
Post #41 of 57 (1406 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

diablopilot wrote:
Para5-0 wrote:
Diablo,
It is virtually impossible to vote by name on every vote or motion based on the fact it would slow things down, but with that said, myself and a good majority of directors voted by name on any important issue. I would be happy to share my vote on any topic and my rationale for the vote. You may not agree with me on some of them but I can honestly say I try my best. As I believe most if not all do the same.

Pardon my french, but horse shit. I've been to far more meeting than you and it wouldn't cost time at all.

Yeah, I'm calling BS on this too, as someone with experience on two different boards, one of which I'm still on. Now, we meet 9-10x a year, so we don't ever have as much on one agenda, but it's pretty damn easy (and I say this as one who served as secretary of my current Board for several years) to record who the ayes, nays, and abstentions are. Has it slowed things down by a few seconds each vote sometimes? Sure. But it's been worth it for the transparency, because we have vocal shareholders who demand it. Maybe if more of us demanded similar transparency from USPA, it would be done.

And Para5, I don't doubt that you personally would be glad to share your views. But not everyone is. With as many directors as there are on USPA's board, it's a huge barrier to put up to ask each individual member to email every director to ask how they voted rather than to just publish the votes in the minutes. For example: I wrote to every single director about an issue that was on this March's agenda and was important to me. I got _six_ replies, only three of which actually indicated their own inclinations as far as voting would go. So even if a member is able to take the time to email all the directors, they aren't in any way guaranteed the information. Plus, that's a LOT of email to ask directors to answer. Why not just make it very easy for members to find out how the directors voted and what got said by whom in meetings (_including_ committee meetings, which is where the meat and potatoes are)?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 8, 2014, 10:01 AM
Post #42 of 57 (1389 views)
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Re: [DanG] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you ever laid out a book Dan? It's a time-consuming process, especially with something like the IRM.

An e-version can be appended in a matter of a day or so, and done locally (not hired out).
I'm not intimate with how USPA produces the IRM, but it's obvious that it's not laid out for e-pub. That alone means it's using a lot of time.
There are only two reasons to take a lot of time on what technology has made very simple:
-Ignorance of technology and ability to spend unnecessary funds
or
-A desire to continue doing things "the old way" because it maintains an illusion of a great deal of time expended (thus justifying a job).

A week spent laying out an epub will pay large dividends in unspent man-hours over future years.
I just completed an update on a 570 page epub I wrote 2 years ago. It took an afternoon to update the entire epub vs what used to take nearly 3 months.

Or perhaps you're right; I'm just full of shit.
Therefore, why is the IRM not available via e-pub?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 9, 2014, 8:25 AM
Post #43 of 57 (1300 views)
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Re: [DanG] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

DanG wrote:
In reply to:
My guess is that someone at USPA wants to protect their job.

Who would that be? Whose job would be eliminated?

(Hint: nobody. DSE is full of shit)

Dan, are comments like that really necessary?

(Hint: no they aren't)


Krip  (Student)

Mar 9, 2014, 3:19 PM
Post #44 of 57 (1238 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
DanG wrote:
In reply to:
My guess is that someone at USPA wants to protect their job.

Who would that be? Whose job would be eliminated?

(Hint: nobody. DSE is full of shit)

Dan, are comments like that really necessary?

(Hint: no they aren't)





Good for you Mr Ackers. Smile +1

Dan if you have a issue with DSE why don't you talk to him via PM.Crazy


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 9, 2014, 9:49 PM
Post #45 of 57 (1178 views)
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Re: [wmw999] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

wmw999 wrote:
The downside I can see is people picking up on recorded soundbites and turning them into cause celebres, just as happens in national politics today. ...

.............................................................................

Sometimes elected politicians have to "speak to the audience back home," ... for example: many of the foolish speeches made by the last Prime Minister of Iran.
Hah!
Hah!


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 10, 2014, 5:15 AM
Post #46 of 57 (1128 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not intimate with how USPA produces the IRM...

So you really don't know, you're just guessing.

In reply to:
There are only two reasons to take a lot of time on what technology has made very simple:
-Ignorance of technology and ability to spend unnecessary funds
or
-A desire to continue doing things "the old way" because it maintains an illusion of a great deal of time expended (thus justifying a job).

Yeah, those are the only two possibilities. Or, it could be something else that doesn't fit your USPA Evil Empire worldview.

You never answered my question. Which of the two people who work on the IRM (and keep in mind that working on the IRM takes up maybe 10% of their time at most) is trying to protect their job by keeping it in paper format? You're such an expert on USPA, is it Jim or Elijia who's sandbagging?

In reply to:
Or perhaps you're right; I'm just full of shit.

Yeah, perhaps.


ChrisD  (No License)

Mar 10, 2014, 7:33 AM
Post #47 of 57 (1100 views)
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Re: [DanG] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

DanG wrote:
In reply to:
I'm not intimate with how USPA produces the IRM...

So you really don't know, you're just guessing.

In reply to:
There are only two reasons to take a lot of time on what technology has made very simple:
-Ignorance of technology and ability to spend unnecessary funds
or
-A desire to continue doing things "the old way" because it maintains an illusion of a great deal of time expended (thus justifying a job).

Yeah, those are the only two possibilities. Or, it could be something else that doesn't fit your USPA Evil Empire worldview.

You never answered my question. Which of the two people who work on the IRM (and keep in mind that working on the IRM takes up maybe 10% of their time at most) is trying to protect their job by keeping it in paper format? You're such an expert on USPA, is it Jim or Elijia who's sandbagging?

In reply to:
Or perhaps you're right; I'm just full of shit.

Yeah, perhaps.

Your wonderful comments, are very similar in nature to DSE's comments, I think both of you are kind of doing what I do, On occasion, and that is, kind of to bait and provoke to promote a little discussion. It doesn't always work the way you intended it too. Tongue

I would suggest someone pick up the phone and give them a call. I know that laidlaw spent considerable time providing valuable input to the IRM, and rewriting it by others is a very "committee" type of thing, and we all know how committees move at a certain speed.

I do want to point out that not everything benefits by technology. I have asked multiple times in the past "why isn't the IRM available in an electronic format," and I really don't think anyone is trying to justify their job as compared with maximizing the benefits of having a paper copy, in your hand, at the time of many of the courses are being run. I was also informed that they have a concern about electronic duplication, and considering over 35% of current skydivers are computer savvy,...they want to hold onto their monetary investment that multiple people have already spent. This is of course another discussion considering the USPA posted a budget surplus for this past year. I don't know for sure either, so this is a question statement, but are they trying to maximixe the limited income these things produce, or is it more of controlling distribution? many times, well a really lot of times, again and again, I have heard this:

Quote:
since you really do not have any of the experience you claim to have and post opinions like they are factual information that other inexperienced jumpers may take as fact I am removing your posting abilities to those forums to limit the harm you might do with your inexperienced postings.


Or something similar?????

I mean what's good for the
goose is good for the Gander right? I just wanted to throw out that line of reasoning for discussion,....I mean god forbid some newbie read something they shouldn't???? And the IRM is meant for instructors,...(only?) ???

Just my two cents for today.


AND neither one of you is full of anything, your both wonderful people so stop throwing stuff at each other, that's what I'm here for,....
C


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Mar 10, 2014, 7:49 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 10, 2014, 9:43 AM
Post #48 of 57 (1049 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

CrazyCrazyCrazy


Fast  (D 28237)

Mar 12, 2014, 2:27 PM
Post #49 of 57 (919 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a super side issue to the thread, but it's always flabbergasted me that the IRM is paper only.

Make a paper copy cost a reasonable markup to the actual print cost + shipping. Distribute the electronic version for free, downloadable and printable. Recoup IRM cost on the backside in the rating application fee.

I just don't get it. It would save a lot of trees and shipping and printing. It would also make it easier for wannabe instructors to get ahold of the material to know how to study.

It's a total lack of thinking outside the box and embracing technology. I have been complaining to USPA for years about the fact that their website is broken in Safari/Chrome/Webkit/Firefox. Excuse after excuse after excuse. I even offered to fix it for them. The first time "not enough people use those web browsers" then "we'll look into it" then "well we are getting a new membership database, can't fix it till after that".

YEARS, our national professional organization can't fix a simple web glitch. It's mind boggling to me.


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 12, 2014, 5:22 PM
Post #50 of 57 (882 views)
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Re: [Fast] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
YEARS, our national professional organization can't fix a simple web glitch. It's mind boggling to me.

Well that would cost money and we don't have extra money to pay for that shit, we have pay for the PR firm!


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 16, 2014, 12:14 PM
Post #51 of 57 (658 views)
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Re: [DanG] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

DanG wrote:
In reply to:
I'm not intimate with how USPA produces the IRM...

So you really don't know, you're just guessing.

In reply to:
There are only two reasons to take a lot of time on what technology has made very simple:
-Ignorance of technology and ability to spend unnecessary funds
or
-A desire to continue doing things "the old way" because it maintains an illusion of a great deal of time expended (thus justifying a job).

Yeah, those are the only two possibilities. Or, it could be something else that doesn't fit your USPA Evil Empire worldview.

You never answered my question. Which of the two people who work on the IRM (and keep in mind that working on the IRM takes up maybe 10% of their time at most) is trying to protect their job by keeping it in paper format? You're such an expert on USPA, is it Jim or Elijia who's sandbagging?

In reply to:
Or perhaps you're right; I'm just full of shit.

Yeah, perhaps.

I've authored several small sections of both books for USPA, and been a part of the process in editing/vetting those segments.
That might suggest I'm really not full of shit.
No finger pointing at persons here, it might be more than just one or two people. It might be fear of technology (which is the response I've been given). It might be a desire to do things the "old way."


I'd like to hear your reason for the IRM to not be e-vailable. I've heard USPA's reasoning, and it's a crock of shit.
USPA isn't at all an evil empire, but there certainly is a _lot_ of dead wood in the pile. There are some good people trying to good things, too. Unfortunately, they're not listened to very often because "they just don't know how things work around here."
Well...in today's world of technology, not too many long-term people know how things *can* work around 'here."


(This post was edited by DSE on Mar 16, 2014, 5:41 PM)


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 17, 2014, 9:46 AM
Post #52 of 57 (592 views)
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In reply to:
No finger pointing at persons here, it might be more than just one or two people.

That's my point. There are only a couple people involved with the IRM at HQ. You are, in fact, finger pointing at those two people.

In reply to:
I'd like to hear your reason for the IRM to not be e-vailable. I've heard USPA's reasoning, and it's a crock of shit.

My guess is that they want people to keep paying for it. Make it an e-book, and you'll only ever sell one copy. Why is that a crock of shit? Do you really think that e-books are secure from copying?

In reply to:
USPA isn't at all an evil empire, but there certainly is a _lot_ of dead wood in the pile.

You keep saying that. Of the dozen staffers, which ones are deadwood? A "lot" implies that most of the staff is deadwood. Is that what you're saying? Man up and tell us what you think.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 17, 2014, 6:59 PM
Post #53 of 57 (528 views)
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Re: [DanG] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I think that ebooks are "that secure from copying."

I'd suggest you learn more about e-books. Can they be copied? Sure. So can a paper book, just about as easily.
How many e-books have you published? I've published quite a few. So far, all but two have easily outsold the IRM. None have been pirated to my knowledge and if they have, it's no reflection on sales to date. Two are required textbooks for media university curricula.
Dan BC sure didn't hesitate to put out his book on Amazon. Nor did Melissa/Roger Nelson.
Both have easily outsold the IRM.

Howzabout you provide any good reason that an e-book wouldn't benefit the membership besides the age-old saw of "we'll only sell one copy."

Overall, it's a Luddite response built around FUD. Were it remotely accurate, Amazon, iTunes, and other sites wouldn't be able to function. Then again, maybe someone has buffaloed you into believing the IRM actually makes money for the USPA? Hint; it doesn't.

Imagine the IRM being updated every 6 months vs every 2 years? Zero shipping cost. Near perfect profit. Managed by someone other than USPA so that USPA merely collects a check. Accessible to everyone, all the time, on a phone, tablet, laptop, desktop. With printing controls, and trackable purchases. Not to mention the side opportunities to generate revenue via ads on the distribution pages/websites that might inspire a few non-skydivers to look into the sport?
There are no downsides, and a great number of upsides.


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 18, 2014, 5:12 AM
Post #54 of 57 (476 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can they be copied? Sure. So can a paper book, just about as easily.

Seriously? Someone is going to sit in front of a copier for hours to copy something like the IRM?

In reply to:
Accessible to everyone, all the time, on a phone, tablet, laptop, desktop.

Yes, accessible everywhere except where you need it, which is during ratings courses and while working with students. Not everyone has an iPad they can whip out at the DZ.

In reply to:
Imagine the IRM being updated every 6 months vs every 2 years?

What is changing every six months that requires updating?

Maybe you're right, that the IRM would make more money for USPA as an e-book. I admit I'm not an expert on e-books. My original protest was to your contention that USPA hasn't moved to e-book format because people are trying to save their make-work jobs.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 18, 2014, 6:14 AM
Post #55 of 57 (461 views)
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Re: [DanG] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

DanG wrote:
In reply to:
Can they be copied? Sure. So can a paper book, just about as easily.

Seriously? Someone is going to sit in front of a copier for hours to copy something like the IRM?

In reply to:
I guess you've never heard of scanners. A basic office scanner can scan and print (or save) a 100 page document in a couple minutes.

In reply to:
Accessible to everyone, all the time, on a phone, tablet, laptop, desktop.

Yes, accessible everywhere except where you need it, which is during ratings courses and while working with students. Not everyone has an iPad they can whip out at the DZ.

In reply to:
But others do, and those who don't can easily print theirs out.


I'm with the e-version crowd on this one. There's simply no need to screw with printing and mailing hard copies any more and pirating issues are identical regardless of the version issued.

Personally I like the idea of rolling the revenues currently derived from paper copies into the price of the course. USPA would still get their money and instructor candidates would get what they need in "e" form and could choose to print it or use an "e" reader.

Everyone wins.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 18, 2014, 8:13 AM
Post #56 of 57 (403 views)
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Re: [DanG] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Seriously? Someone is going to sit in front of a copier for hours to copy something like the IRM?

Hours? No. Minutes? yes. It's quite easy to copy the IRM at this point in time. Here's a guide;
A-Unthread binder (30 seconds or so)
B-Insert relevant sections into the feeder tray
C-Select "copy both sides" on copy machine
D-Walk away, return 5 mins later and rebind/staple/insert into folder.


Quote:
Yes, accessible everywhere except where you need it, which is during ratings courses and while working with students. Not everyone has an iPad they can whip out at the DZ.
I'm not suggesting that the print version be ENTIRELY replaced just yet. In a few years..sure. Both are great. I'm a fan of being able to print sections of the IRM, I do it with the SIM for most of my Coach Candidates, simply because they frequently/usually show up with an e-version of the SIM.


Quote:
What is changing every six months that requires updating?
"Need" to be changing? Probably nothing/not much. However, with new information access, videos, and other media-rich opportunity, it would be a weak argument that slipping the new/updated information at more frequent points would be a bad thing.

Quote:
Maybe you're right, that the IRM would make more money for USPA as an e-book. I admit I'm not an expert on e-books. My original protest was to your contention that USPA hasn't moved to e-book format because people are trying to save their make-work jobs.

I believe this is a part of the resistance, yes. However, I also feel it's a fear of the future, fear of losing control, and a lack of understanding. I'd be surprised if the cost of printing the IRM is remotely covered in the cost of the book. And it shouldn't be making "more money" but rather "breaking even."
This page supports that some at USPA recognize the value in e-distribution.
http://www.uspa.org/...an_IRMEssentials.pdf

It also is a board decision, not just an admin decision. Even if the powers that layout/admin the manual wanted to go e-version, they can't do so without board input. However, the board vote heavily relies on input from the admins of the IRM. I've been present for those arguments, and explained that printing, sharing, etc can be tracked/limited.
For example, the book security can be set for only sectional printing, a limited number of prints, or no printing. My wingsuit E-book allows all the formations to be printed, but the coaching/organizing sections cannot be.
http://www.amazon.ca/...-ebook/dp/B00BNHQ9U4


(This post was edited by DSE on Mar 18, 2014, 12:09 PM)


Fast  (D 28237)

Mar 18, 2014, 12:01 PM
Post #57 of 57 (346 views)
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Re: [DanG] USPA BOD Cliff's Notes [In reply to] Can't Post

DanG wrote:
Maybe you're right, that the IRM would make more money for USPA as an e-book. I admit I'm not an expert on e-books.

In what world should the Instructional Rating Manual of our national organization be designed as a money maker? I mean sure if USPA was a for profit business, it isn't right? Tongue

Get the book set up with an on-demand print house for direct order (for printed copies), distribute the PDF for free for the average skydiver who can print the parts they need at home and roll the cost of managing the content into the relevant rating applications.

Huge cost savings, less burden on membership dues, more people able to see the info. I said all this a page back, so silly.



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