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There he was, about to die.

 

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dthames  (B 37674)

Nov 8, 2013, 4:07 AM
Post #26 of 51 (2253 views)
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Re: [faulk04] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

faulk04 wrote:
ridebmxbikes wrote:
wow!!! insane video! glad everyone turned out ok!

ive always thought(was taught) if you are so low that you can't make it to the group then track off till pull altitude. any time ive gone low I would just leave. when I opened I was 1/4 to 1/2 mile away from everyone because I had more time to track than them. if you leave early and still cant out track your mates you need to go get coaching!

what happens if you track up or down jump run and track into another group?

My thoughts exactly.


Recently I was visiting a DZ, joined a belly jump and the plan was "if you go low, go ahead and track away". I didn't speak up, but I thought I would rather stay and spend my time (properly) trying to get back up to the group....which I did. At breakoff, sure enough, there was someone about 200 feet below me heading in the same direction. Much better to stay close but not right under the group.


snowcrash75  (C 33579)

Nov 8, 2013, 4:22 AM
Post #27 of 51 (2238 views)
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Re: [Boogers] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

Boogers wrote:
Yikes! If you're gonna go low, don't pull high...

I'd guess the first digit in the cameraman's altimeter was 2 when he pulled.

Flight path was 180 degree turn, track, 180 degree turn, track, 180ish degree turn, track, track, track....OP, any comment on which way jump run was in reference to this?


gunpaq  (D 11214)

Nov 8, 2013, 5:41 AM
Post #28 of 51 (2133 views)
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Re: [Bignugget] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

All is well that ends well. Thankfully no one was killed and a valuable lesson learnded. Bignugget, thanks for sharing your friend's experience as it is a safety reminder to us all.


nigel99  (D 1)

Nov 8, 2013, 5:44 AM
Post #29 of 51 (2128 views)
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Re: [DHemer] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

DHemer wrote:
This video scared me for 2 reasons

firstly it could have very easily been a double fatality

secondly because having recently gone low on a formatation and had an experience jumper track over me around break off I could have been that guy.

I had not really concidered the correct procedure to follow until now. I handeled it by continuing to track, and then pulled when i saw him deploy. I got into some trouble about opening low, undercanopy at 1900. I went low becasue I lost altitude awareness ,it was not my plan to open low.
In the hopes of avoiding this in future, what should I had done. If I pulled at the correct height this may have happenned

I believe it starts early on. Firstly build your skills on 4 ways, keep current and ensure decent skill levels on the jumps you go on. Too many jumps have people without the skill level or currency to do them safely. Don't be afraid to cap yourself off a load where people don't have the skills

As you progress towards eight ways and larger ensure that you are surrounded by experienced and safe people, don't throw together a jump with more than 1 or 2 'learners'. Things happen fast and a friend of mine was injured recently on a big way (40+ way), as a result of someone not following the tracking plan ending up with a canopy collision on opening.

However if something happens and you do go low, the generally accepted plan for all jumps I've been on is go off to the side and spend all the time till break-off trying to get back up. Then at break-off track as hard as you can for as long as you can. Don't do funky stuff like barrel rolls, back tracking or anything clever. I would add remain altitude aware, a two out situation will ruin your day as well.


shropshire  (C License)

Nov 8, 2013, 5:44 AM
Post #30 of 51 (2127 views)
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Re: [gunpaq] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

gunpaq wrote:
Bignugget, thanks for sharing your 'friend's' Angelic experience as it is a safety reminder to us all.


chemist  (A License)

Nov 8, 2013, 7:04 AM
Post #31 of 51 (1983 views)
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Re: [shropshire] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

that is some scary shit


format  (B 15348)

Nov 8, 2013, 8:22 AM
Post #32 of 51 (1873 views)
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Re: [chemist] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

chemist wrote:
that is some scary shit

No shit,
go lower than planned, turn your GoPro on
and enjoy similar

edit: Oh, I'm sorry but the GoPro guy's alti says 1500 ft under opened main


(This post was edited by format on Nov 8, 2013, 8:41 AM)


faulk04  (D 32457)

Nov 8, 2013, 8:46 AM
Post #33 of 51 (1814 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's another scenario...I've had this discussion with a few other people.

You look below you and see a canopy inflating. Do you:

1). Try to avoid it by falling past it
2). Pull and hope to not have a canopy collision

Granted you hope to never have to pick either one but which would you choose and why?


format  (B 15348)

Nov 8, 2013, 8:51 AM
Post #34 of 51 (1792 views)
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Re: [faulk04] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

faulk04 wrote:
Here's another scenario...I've had this discussion with a few other people.

You look below you and see a canopy inflating. Do you:

1). Try to avoid it by falling past it
2). Pull and hope to not have a canopy collision

Granted you hope to never have to pick either one but which would you choose and why?
That's easy: Smile
avoid opening canopy with a faster manovre - moving away that is


shropshire  (C License)

Nov 8, 2013, 8:54 AM
Post #35 of 51 (1782 views)
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Re: [faulk04] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

faulk04 wrote:
Here's another scenario...I've had this discussion with a few other people.

You look below you and see a canopy inflating. Do you:

1). Try to avoid it by falling past it
2). Pull and hope to not have a canopy collision

Granted you hope to never have to pick either one but which would you choose and why?

um .. I'd say stay in freefall AND push your tack .. speed is probably your friend .. if you deploy I'd think that the chances of a collision ate increased.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 8, 2013, 8:55 AM
Post #36 of 51 (1778 views)
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Re: [format] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

format wrote:
chemist wrote:
that is some scary shit

No shit,
go lower than planned, turn your GoPro on
and enjoy similar

Couple of quick comments from the cheap seats~

The GoPro vid in this case is IMO a fantastic learning tool.

Though nobody has directly 'blamed' anything on the camera - don't - it had zero to do with the near fatality.

Having had a few 'close ones' over the years...SEEING it makes the point much better than just 'hearing' about it. This example clearly demonstrates the closing speeds we are dealing with, and cements the reasons NOT to even get in that position.

Doing the slider @ 1500' - though not ideal, considering the circumstances it's not 'oh shit' low. Probably pulled @ or just below 2300.

Someone suggested the camera guy wasn't 'looking around', that can be deceiving...just because the camera isn't moving doesn't mean his eyes aren't. MY vids often look like my head never moves at all, but I'm constantly scanning with my eyes, the 'wide angle' doesn't show all the small movements of the camera all that well.

And finally - @ Dan...next time SPEAK UP! If something doesn't sound right say so, the life you save my be MINE! Wink

NOT leaving the formation attempt early is an ages long tried & true method aimed at safety for everyone, THAT is what needs to be focused on.

If the jumper in this case didn't KNOW that, maybe 'we' are in part to blame - if that person DID know it but left early anyway, maybe seeing how close they came to reaching room temperature will force some reconsideration regarding that kind of thought process.


mattjw916  (D License)

Nov 8, 2013, 9:00 AM
Post #37 of 51 (1763 views)
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Re: [faulk04] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

anything other than deploy IMO

once you start deployment, freefall is over and you have a window of time where you are out of control...

if it's after break-off and you're already tracking just make a slight heading adjustment and hope for the best... any radical direction changes could just end up trading the collision with the person you do see, with the person that you don't... if they are immediately below you just punch it out to the absolute max since you already have a bunch of forward momentum

doing something unpredictable or drastic is probably not a good idea IMO

chances are shit is going to go down so fast you won't have time to do anything but pucker up your butthole Tongue

my $0.02


FreedomFlyerKS

Nov 8, 2013, 9:20 AM
Post #38 of 51 (1703 views)
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Re: [Bignugget] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow.. that was a close one.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Nov 8, 2013, 9:24 AM
Post #39 of 51 (1691 views)
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Re: [faulk04] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

faulk04 wrote:
Here's another scenario...I've had this discussion with a few other people.

You look below you and see a canopy inflating. Do you:

1). Try to avoid it by falling past it
2). Pull and hope to not have a canopy collision

Granted you hope to never have to pick either one but which would you choose and why?

I know of two incidents in which one chose #1, and the other chose #2;

#2 was related to me by a guy who witnessed it. The guy pulled, hoping his canopy would open before he reached the low man. He was wrong. He got line stretch just before he punched through the low canopy, and the friction fused the two canopies together, so you had two guys under one ball of shit. One guy chopped, opened his reserve, then the other guy chopped...and almost punched through the low man's reserve.Shocked

#1 was me, about a year after hearing the previous story. A guy went low, then disappeared. At breakoff I looked around and finally saw him...directly below me with his pilot chute coming straight at me.Shocked I went into a track, and I think I missed the edge of his canopy by a few feet, then I dumped low.


faulk04  (D 32457)

Nov 8, 2013, 9:54 AM
Post #40 of 51 (1634 views)
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Re: [ryoder] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

It happened to me a few months ago. I was filming a tandem and had a guy spec the tandem. Before going up we talked and I said don't get above or below me or the tandem. Well he obviously didn't listen and went below me and I had no idea. Filmed the tandem opening and turned back to my belly and looked down. I saw the canopy inflating, and I pulled. Everything worked out and I got lucky. I landed and the guy said, "Did you see me?"

If i was in the situation again I would go with the other approach. I don't remember this situation coming up in any FJC or throughout my training. It could have been mentioned but I forgot it if I was.


(This post was edited by faulk04 on Nov 8, 2013, 11:44 AM)


Bufobufo  (D License)

Nov 8, 2013, 10:46 AM
Post #41 of 51 (1567 views)
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Re: [faulk04] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there by chance any full version of the jump? from when camera is turned on to when he lands if possible.

Good reminder how dead serious this sport is.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Nov 8, 2013, 11:06 AM
Post #42 of 51 (1532 views)
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Re: [ryoder] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ryoder,

Quote:
#1 . . . A guy went low, then disappeared.

Twice for me. It is a very scary point of view.

Pirate

JerryBaumchen


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Nov 8, 2013, 11:40 AM
Post #43 of 51 (1467 views)
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Re: [faulk04] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

faulk04 wrote:
Here's another scenario...I've had this discussion with a few other people.

You look below you and see a canopy inflating. Do you:

1). Try to avoid it by falling past it
2). Pull and hope to not have a canopy collision

Granted you hope to never have to pick either one but which would you choose and why?

#2 is a non-solution. I have a friend who did that and sniveled through the other canopy. It was only luck that there was no body-body collision. TRACK AWAY!


dezilu  (C 36513)

Nov 8, 2013, 12:04 PM
Post #44 of 51 (1423 views)
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Re: [Bufobufo] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks to me like the cameraman pulled low. You can see jumpers in his group under canopy long before he pulls. Probablly could have been avoided if he pulled with the rest of the group, imop


Puntas  (C License)

Nov 8, 2013, 1:20 PM
Post #45 of 51 (1325 views)
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There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was on that load but luckily not with that group. If you go through it frame by frame you can see his entire shadow cast on the canopy.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Nov 8, 2013, 4:25 PM
Post #46 of 51 (1151 views)
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Re: [format] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

format wrote:
GLIDEANGLE wrote:
For the low timers, there is another way to get into this situation. Rather than conflict between jumpers in the SAME group... there can be conflict between jumpers in DIFFERENT groups. EXIT SEPARATION MATTERS!!!

When I looked down and saw the distressing image of a canopy blossoming below me, it was due to a novice sitflyer who slid down jump run under my 4-way belly team.

I kicked myself about it later because I had a bad feeling about her in the plane before exit. She was new to our DZ and obviously a low timer. Based on that experience I am now MUCH more curious about what other groups are doing. I frequently ask low-time solo freeflyers what they are doing and am told "I am just practicing my sit flying." Far too often these jumpers don't appreciate the challenges of falling straight down in a sit when solo, nor the need to orient themselves such that any sliding is ACROSS jump run rather than up or down jump run.

I remember the color of her canopy vividly! I will take that image to my grave.

Sit fly can track you down jump run, under previously exited 4-way belly fliers?
Shouldn't she be faster falling then belly team?
And much less drifted too?

My 4-way belly team was first to exit, followed by the novice sit flyer.
Yes, sit fly can generate enough horizontal movement to slide into another group's air space.
Yes, she fell faster. Which is why she was under me despite exiting after me.
I suspect that she left inadequate exit separation PLUS having lots of horizontal movement.
I suspect that wind drift had little to do with it. I don't remember there being much wind that day.


format  (B 15348)

Nov 8, 2013, 4:34 PM
Post #47 of 51 (1138 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

GLIDEANGLE wrote:
My 4-way belly team was first to exit, followed by the novice sit flyer.
Yes, sit fly can generate enough horizontal movement to slide into another group's air space.
Yes, she fell faster. Which is why she was under me despite exiting after me.
I suspect that she left inadequate exit separation PLUS having lots of horizontal movement.
I suspect that wind drift had little to do with it. I don't remember there being much wind that day.
Thank you, makes it fuzzier now but I'll clear it. Thank you


councilman24  (D 8631)

Nov 8, 2013, 4:49 PM
Post #48 of 51 (1120 views)
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Re: [Bignugget] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

First you have to get the saying right...

No Shit! There I was! Thought I was goin' to die!


Bignugget  (A License)

Nov 12, 2013, 12:32 PM
Post #49 of 51 (667 views)
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Re: [councilman24] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

councilman24 wrote:
First you have to get the saying right...

No Shit! There I was! Thought I was goin' to die!

As one of my other buddies put it. This was his 'moment of clarity'.

I wish I had that sexy southern drawl put I am Missouri bred unfortunately.

I am glad he made it.

Lets not lose sight of the goal however, FRIDAY FREAKOUT VIDEO.


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Nov 12, 2013, 2:26 PM
Post #50 of 51 (564 views)
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Re: [Bignugget] There he was, about to die. [In reply to] Can't Post

No idea who the camera flyer was, and don't want to know. He has no gripe about the blue canopy. He was the one going low, or why was he SSS at 1500'? IMO he was not keeping his "head on a swivel" as he should have been doing. It's ignorant stuff that takes people's lives. Don't be that guy/gal. This was completely avoidable, no excuses. The guy/gal under the blue canopy most likely opened at their safe predetermined altitude. If I had been the blue canopy pilot, the camera guy and myself would have had a "Come to Jesus" as soon as I landed. Bad enough this sport is so dangerous without "Homey" the flying clown in the sky. Another thing he did which perplexes me is after pitching he screws around with the slider, that could have waited, right? While fooling with his slider, he again is not keeping his "Head on a swivel" It's disturbing to say the least. When I go to the DZ I always hang out a bit to see who's jumping and what their tendencies are so I know what to expect, or which load NOT to get on.

Best-
Richard


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