Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013

 

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drjump  (D 2785)

Dec 5, 2013, 6:27 AM
Post #201 of 210 (1829 views)
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Re: [fencebuster] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Fencebuster--you hit the nail on the head.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Dec 5, 2013, 8:46 AM
Post #202 of 210 (1719 views)
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Re: [drjump] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

drjump wrote:
Lee-you are correct about not being able to tell, from the video, if lead slowed down or if trail was closing too fast! But, the video clearly shows the trail plane loosing sight of the lead and the trail pilot looking to the right at his jumpers starting to climb out!

The video only shows the CAMERA lost sight of the lead plane. The pilot may or may not have lost sight. And, we don't know what he saw in his periferall vision. Smile

I don't think, however, that changes the idea that the trail plane has the responsibility for maintaining seperation. Cool


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Dec 5, 2013, 9:17 AM
Post #203 of 210 (1675 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

skyjumpenfool wrote:
drjump wrote:
Lee-you are correct about not being able to tell, from the video, if lead slowed down or if trail was closing too fast! But, the video clearly shows the trail plane loosing sight of the lead and the trail pilot looking to the right at his jumpers starting to climb out!

The video only shows the CAMERA lost sight of the lead plane. The pilot may or may not have lost sight. And, we don't know what he saw in his periferall vision. Smile

I don't think, however, that changes the idea that the trail plane has the responsibility for maintaining seperation. Cool

Anyone who has ever flown or sat in a Cessna can tell from this video that the pilot lost sight of the lead.


fencebuster  (D 29918)

Dec 5, 2013, 11:43 AM
Post #204 of 210 (1565 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Concur that the pilot could not see the lead. Below, in front, right of the nose, there is no visibility from a C-182 left seat. And, what's more he should have been slightly below the lead to assure keeping lead in sight. I have spent some time flying formation in F-4 Phantoms, as well as Cessnas. There is way to properly fly formation.


(This post was edited by fencebuster on Dec 5, 2013, 11:44 AM)


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Dec 5, 2013, 1:34 PM
Post #205 of 210 (1462 views)
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Re: [inspector] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Folks, I would really recommend to those that insist that left trail is ideal for low time/new trail formation pilots to rethink this.

The argument has been stated as better visibility. I disagree. You are sitting on the left side of the plane looking to the right. I feel you have greater visibility if you are sitting close to the window through which you are looking not further away. The further away you get the narrower the field of view. So if the window is the same size on the left as the right your field of view is GREATER looking to your left. Take your hand and make a circle with your thumb and first finger. Hold it at arms length. How much do you see through it? Now hold it again your eye. See more?

Next point is as the climb out comes you don't have any visual distractions. See the problem? With left trail you are looking at the lead plane AND the periphery have the jumpers climbing out. Like a moth to a flame your attention may be drawn away from lead if say, I dunno, a jumper suddenly swings wildly into view in front of your strut? Just saying.

Rule one if you are lead: Don't do anything your trail can't anticipate.
Rule one if you are trail: Always expect the unexpected from the lead AND NEVER LOSE SIGHT OF HIM!


format  (B 15348)

Dec 5, 2013, 1:54 PM
Post #206 of 210 (1446 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

diverdriver wrote:
Rule one if you are lead: Don't do anything your trail can't anticipate.
Rule one if you are trail: Always expect the unexpected from the lead AND NEVER LOSE SIGHT OF HIM!

So, that's it?
Trail pilot's blinked and missed lead pilot's manoevre.


(This post was edited by format on Dec 5, 2013, 2:05 PM)


akjmpplt  (D 13733)

Dec 5, 2013, 5:27 PM
Post #207 of 210 (1327 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

diverdriver wrote:

The argument has been stated as better visibility. I disagree.
Quote:

Most of my formation flying was on the left side. There really isn't any issue seeing lead unless you get high on him at which time the nose blocks the view. I agree that flying right echelon will go you a greater range of positioning while being able to maintain visual on lead, however it's about the skydivers. If you fly left echelon they can see lead, in fact you can even see the door bottom when it's opened and you can see lead jumpers climbing out. When the base leaves the lead plane it drops right by your jumpers, they don't have to fly under you to get to the base.

Left echelon allows more room for error. If during jump run either pilot gets sloppy and wanders about there has to be quite the excursion before trail will pass through the lead jumpers flightpath....from the right side it's only a few feet left to put you possible in the way of jumpers from the lead plane.

All that being said I've flown formation from both sides and didn't really find one more difficult than the other...be it in a 182/206 or B-17/B-24 (which is a bitch to see out of).

The problem with this incident was not the formation used for the drop, it was negligence on the part of one or both pilots. There quite simply is no excuse for the trail pilot to collide with lead if lead is flying in a reasonable manner.


fencebuster  (D 29918)

Dec 6, 2013, 5:10 AM
Post #208 of 210 (1168 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I concur that right eschelon is a "better" choice, however, there is no reason a competent commercial pilot with some formation experience and an adequate preflight briefing should not be able to maintain formation in a left eschelon. The key is not so much exact position as it is maintaining visual on the lead. We used to say, lose sight, lose life, when briefing for air-to-air combat maneuvering (ACM).


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Dec 6, 2013, 10:46 AM
Post #209 of 210 (1009 views)
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Re: [fencebuster] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

fencebuster wrote:
I concur that right eschelon is a "better" choice, however, there is no reason a competent commercial pilot with some formation experience and an adequate preflight briefing should not be able to maintain formation in a left eschelon. The key is not so much exact position as it is maintaining visual on the lead. We used to say, lose sight, lose life, when briefing for air-to-air combat maneuvering (ACM).

I like it.


SpectreDriver  (D 26287)

Jan 25, 2014, 7:09 PM
Post #210 of 210 (606 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

And remember lead shouldn't ever hear a peep from dash2 unless it's to say: "lead's on fire". Or "I'll take the fat one."


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