Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013

 

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airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 12, 2013, 5:43 AM
Post #176 of 210 (5025 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
~glad that he doesn't seem too deterred to continue to fly or jump.

Why would he be...what are the odds of that happening AGAIN?! Wink


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 12, 2013, 5:47 AM
Post #177 of 210 (5016 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

airtwardo wrote:
Quote:
~glad that he doesn't seem too deterred to continue to fly or jump.

Why would he be...what are the odds of that happening AGAIN?! Wink

Well, they only have one plane and that's broken at the moment... so pretty slim Tongue


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Nov 12, 2013, 6:05 AM)


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 12, 2013, 7:18 AM
Post #178 of 210 (4896 views)
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Re: [stinkyho] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

If you know your slot and are flying in it there is no need for communication on the radio. The large records I've been on have that quality as the week progresses. Even when you bring in the top people there can be chatter in the beginning. But as the week goes it's silent. A LONG TIME. And that's when you know your formation is solid and in "the zone".

More info is needed on what the briefing was on this formation load and what was the experience level of the trail pilot. This was their first formation together by the account given in another post. Did they discuss a cut? Did the 182 descend unexpectedly? Yes, the trail pilot never should have lost site of the lead. Things can happen fast.

What is also EXTREMELY lucky in this situation is the main gear of the 185 hitting the rear of the left flap which prevented the overtake to continue which would have deposited Chandler right into the spinning prop of the 182.


(This post was edited by billvon on Nov 12, 2013, 8:09 AM)


Mightydog  (D 23952)

Nov 12, 2013, 8:52 AM
Post #179 of 210 (4727 views)
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Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

The pilot is eligible for the "Caterpillar Club" and a nice pin.
Glad all got out OK. Near tragedy for sure.


(This post was edited by Mightydog on Nov 12, 2013, 9:48 AM)


ChrisD  (No License)

Nov 12, 2013, 10:44 AM
Post #180 of 210 (4585 views)
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Re: [otterboy] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

otterboy wrote:

Yikes, this thread has turned into a internet lesson on how to fly formations?????

Quote:
Certainly pertains to the accident.....

This incidents section is to learn from unfortunate prior situations so we hopefully never, ever, repeat them.

But I'm willing to bet that they talked these inexperienced pilots....

"Talked them into what?????"

And what do we do about drivers that don't watch where they are going???

C


Do you think these guys are going to loose sight of another aircraft in close proximity again???

Either one of em?


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Nov 12, 2013, 8:08 PM
Post #181 of 210 (4277 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

diverdriver -- you're the pilot, so I'm curious: How much a Cessna drifts sideways with that much load on one side? I know the pilot is supposed to compensate, but, are there times where a pilot is unable to compensate (e.g. too much load). e.g. Can that happen near a stall point?


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 13, 2013, 6:47 AM
Post #182 of 210 (4051 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

mdrejhon wrote:
diverdriver -- you're the pilot, so I'm curious: How much a Cessna drifts sideways with that much load on one side? I know the pilot is supposed to compensate, but, are there times where a pilot is unable to compensate (e.g. too much load). e.g. Can that happen near a stall point?

Can they lose control with four on the step? Sure. Their training should be such that they do not. There needs to be a clear, understood setup for the type of exit that will be performed. Will the jumpers take grips? How long will the setup take? Are they going to use the plane like their personal aerial jungle gym?

As you certainly know the preflight briefing is so important. You can't just "throw it up". And if what I have seen posted elsewhere is that this was their first formation load together I have to wonder what exactly was the briefing? I can't begin to make many conclusions until I hear what preceded the flight.

Did the lead pilot make a cut to idle? Was that the briefing or was it what he assumed he should do from the previous few formations he's said to have flown?

The key to flying good formations is BE DELIBERATE. Be clear. No one should get a surprise.

How much can a Cessna drift? A little or a lot depending on pilot attention. Did the lead drift? I don't know. We can only see the closure from the trail plane. That does not mean the trail was drifting. It seems once the trail got nearly over the lead the wingtip vortices sucked him in like a burble.

That help?


(This post was edited by diverdriver on Nov 13, 2013, 6:48 AM)


SkydiverShawn  (C 40994)

Nov 13, 2013, 10:15 AM
Post #183 of 210 (3920 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

CSpenceFLY wrote:
After watching this a couple times and thinking about it I'm wondering if the "top" aircraft" was actually supposed to be trail. Does anyone know? I can't imagine a trail pilot not being concerned that he completely lost sight of the lead. Is it possible that he was lead and the other aircraft passed him during climb out?

I have done several two plane shots from Cessna's and this is exactly what I was thinking immediately upon seeing this. I thought " Shit, that don't look right".


EDIT: and after watching the video several times, why is the general assumption and focus on the "trail plane" meaning the one that was on top? Who's to say that the other plane was not actually flying "trail" and somehow in climb out and exit the pilot(s) inadvertently moved into the wrong position?


(This post was edited by SkydiverShawn on Nov 13, 2013, 10:20 AM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 13, 2013, 10:34 AM
Post #184 of 210 (3901 views)
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Re: [SkydiverShawn] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
EDIT: and after watching the video several times, why is the general assumption and focus on the "trail plane" meaning the one that was on top? Who's to say that the other plane was not actually flying "trail" and somehow in climb out and exit the pilot(s) inadvertently moved into the wrong position?

Probably because the 2 pilots identified themselves and which positions they were flying in their interviews.


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 13, 2013, 10:52 AM
Post #185 of 210 (3886 views)
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Re: [labrys] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

labrys wrote:
Probably because the 2 pilots identified themselves and which positions they were flying in their interviews.

Well, there is that.

Yah I guess we know which is which. And that the trail plane set up in high left trail intentionally. Now, why?


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Nov 13, 2013, 11:30 AM
Post #186 of 210 (3848 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

diverdriver wrote:
labrys wrote:
Probably because the 2 pilots identified themselves and which positions they were flying in their interviews.

Well, there is that.

Yah I guess we know which is which. And that the trail plane set up in high left trail intentionally. Now, why?


I don't think he set up that way. High that is. I'm not sure which versions of the video are still out but in one of the originals that was longer it showed them trailing and pretty much on level. I'm not sure which plane was moving around or if it was both but everything went to hell on climb out.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 13, 2013, 1:56 PM
Post #187 of 210 (3736 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Did the lead pilot make a cut to idle?

When I saw the video this is the first thing I thought of. He pulled the throttle back, lost air speed and started to lose altitude. Trail plane did not have time to react and

Sparky


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 13, 2013, 7:11 PM
Post #188 of 210 (3618 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And that the trail plane set up in high left trail intentionally. Now, why?

What about the idea that the jumpers in the lead plane climbed out first and/or the lead pilot gave too much cut. Either case would find the lead plane losing airspeed and altitude relative to the trail plane. So if the set-up was right to begin with, and then the lead plane dropped down and back, now the lead is under the trail plane.

Now jumpers begin to climb out of the trail plane, again, causing it to sink out, and it just happens to do so on top of the already out of place lead plane.


FlyingRon

Nov 14, 2013, 8:36 AM
Post #189 of 210 (3416 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

mjosparky wrote:
That section is refereeing to aerobatic flight and even then as a crew member the pilot is not required to wear a rig.

Umm, no. Once you are doing acro carrying other than crew, EVERYBODY on board needs a chute. If you are flying solo (or just with required crew but nobody else), you don't need one.


DanG  (D 22351)

Nov 14, 2013, 9:28 AM
Post #190 of 210 (3370 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
He pulled the throttle back, lost air speed and started to lose altitude.

Or the high plane started to lose airspeed during the climbout and instinctively pushed the nose down to compensate.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Nov 16, 2013, 9:57 PM
Post #191 of 210 (2959 views)
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Re: [inspector] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

NTSB preliminary reports are finally online.
Note there is a separate link for each a/c:

http://www.ntsb.gov/...nth=11&year=2013


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Nov 17, 2013, 6:14 AM
Post #192 of 210 (2868 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

After reading the report I now understand what happened. They were flying out of the Bong airport Smile




drjump  (D 2785)

Nov 20, 2013, 9:29 AM
Post #194 of 210 (2385 views)
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Re: [inspector] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the posts to this thread are speculative questions! If you study the videos, shot from the trail plane. You will see the pilot has his head turned to the right, watching his jumpers start to climb out! He has lost sight of the lead plane. This is when it appears that the trail plane is overtaking the lead plane and is on a collision course. And, seconds later they did collide.


Pulse  (D 16387)

Nov 23, 2013, 9:26 PM
Post #195 of 210 (2001 views)
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Re: [drjump] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

One aspect always briefed in formation flying is what to do if you lose sight of the lead. Yet, I have yet to see this briefed between pilots formation for jumpers. I'd be curious if they had a plan for this and if it was different than the standard 'blind wingman' call.

The other part of this would be having the discipline to know when things are going bad and to follow the procedure. Then the fortitude to deal with nine skydivers. Pissy because they weren't close enough on their formation.

A lot of times I think skydivers have been fortunate when it comes to formation loads. I love them as much as a next. But it comes part of an acceptance of added risk.




LeapingGnome  (D 9331)

Dec 3, 2013, 7:54 PM
Post #197 of 210 (1149 views)
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Re: [Pulse] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

We ran a multi Cessna dz for many years, and did many multi Cessna formation loads, in all there was a sit down meeting and brief before the jump. Trail plane always on the left and slightly below the lead plane. This gives the trail pilot control of position. The lead plane maintains speed and no cut. Slight corrections and long jump runs to give plenty time to get set, short jump runs and corrections before the door can lead to problems of separation and or crowding! It is only my thoughts from watching the videos, the trail plane should have been below the lead and if he lost sight of the lead aborted the the jump and the lead going right and trail going left.


leesamsiel

Dec 4, 2013, 8:16 PM
Post #198 of 210 (877 views)
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Re: [drjump] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

drjump wrote:
.....This is when it appears that the trail plane is overtaking the lead plane and is on a collision course. And, seconds later they did collide.

By watching the video a careful, knowledgeable observer cannot tell whether (1) the trail plane is overtaking and dropping on top of the lead plane; (2) the lead plane is slowing and rising up get in the trail plane's path; or (3) a combination of these two. How can you tell which plane is stationary and which is moving by observing the video?


fencebuster  (D 29918)

Dec 5, 2013, 5:20 AM
Post #199 of 210 (781 views)
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Re: [leesamsiel] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

That may be true, but it ignores the first rule of formation flying . . . DASH 2 shall not lose sight of the lead and will at all times maintain adequate separation. If Dash 2 loses sight or cannot maintain briefed separation, break off is warranted and required. Lead was out of the DASH 2 line of sight . . . breakoff. Period.


drjump  (D 2785)

Dec 5, 2013, 6:26 AM
Post #200 of 210 (734 views)
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Re: [leesamsiel] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Lee-you are correct about not being able to tell, from the video, if lead slowed down or if trail was closing too fast! But, the video clearly shows the trail plane loosing sight of the lead and the trail pilot looking to the right at his jumpers starting to climb out!


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